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Vanguards Retribution Paladin PvP Guide (6.0.3)


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#181 Wutangrza

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 02:24 AM

So Seraphim has to at least be considered, especially if you want to go for that 5.4 enhancement shaman sort of playstyle where you hard swap and explode someone.

Check out these screenshots, that's 120,474 damage with one attack. Why so much? Well, ret 4 set gives us 3% more damage per holy power spent for 8s whenever we spend holy power. Seraphim costs 5 holy power and increases crit/haste/multi strike/versatility/mastery/bonus armor by 1000. Wings gives us + 20% damage. Holy Avenger gives us +30% damage to holy power builders (of which Hammer of Wrath is one), and then of course our 4 set bonus will give us +15% damage for 8s after seraphim.

So +1000 of every secondary stat + 65% damage = 120k damage in one hit.


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#182 Wutangrza

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 02:30 AM

Note, this was to a target dummy, but since holy damage ignores armor, it would hit a player with no other sources of damage reduction other than the 2 set PvP trinket bonus for 108k.

Edited by Wutangrza, 20 November 2014 - 02:30 AM.


#183 Gigana

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 09:01 AM

View PostWutangrza, on 20 November 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

Note, this was to a target dummy, but since holy damage ignores armor, it would hit a player with no other sources of damage reduction other than the 2 set PvP trinket bonus for 108k.
Anyone with a brain will go defensive stance and/or pop short-cd defensive CDs like divine protection or barkskin the moment you use seraphim.

For example, a ret is gonna have the 10% trinket bonus, 10% TV/exo glyph, divine protection, versatility, and the ability to kite the shit out of you because your TV is melee range. I dunno, it just seems to me like this entire holy avenger-seraphim build is something that could work great on low ratings or random BGs, but will crumble the moment you meet players who react to your swifty.

I gotta say, it surprises me how - after Blizz FINALLY gave retri sustained dmg - many people seem hellbent on figuring out a way to do focus on ramp-up burst every X seconds. :D
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#184 Bearlysober

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 10:38 AM

Offtopic: But since all retri's hang out here I found this place to be the best able to answer my question. Played a retribution paladin as main  before 5.2 and played as alt a little in pvp in mop for about  I main feral druid atm and for alt  consider having a retribution alt or rogue. What you guys think?
keep in mind I need something to play for RBGS as well.

#185 Gigana

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 11:32 AM

View PostBearlysober, on 20 November 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Offtopic: But since all retri's hang out here I found this place to be the best able to answer my question. Played a retribution paladin as main  before 5.2 and played as alt a little in pvp in mop for about  I main feral druid atm and for alt  consider having a retribution alt or rogue. What you guys think?
keep in mind I need something to play for RBGS as well.
I hear ferals and rogues are both awesome now. Rogues are probably a better choice for RBG because smoke bomb is always going to be great no matter what, whereas it's still unknown if retri AOE dmg is going to be enough to secure them a RBG spot.
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#186 Wutangrza

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 04:28 PM

View PostGigana, on 20 November 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Anyone with a brain will go defensive stance and/or pop short-cd defensive CDs like divine protection or barkskin the moment you use seraphim.


Eh, you don't exactly have time to react. It's no different than an enhance shaman ascendance in 5.4. Both Seraphim, Wings, and Holy Avenger are off GCD, so you just wait till you have a GCD, hard swap swifty one shot. They aren't going to psychically predict your tab target before it happens and pre-deterrence.

You literally go from just doing your thing to next global = 100k+ damage hit possibility.

#187 Huxleylol

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 09:08 PM

So what stats did we decide on?

#188 Animefreak3K

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 11:37 PM

Mastery for highest Burst.
Versatility is a very good stats and would be only viable, if we can push it to abou 15%, without loosing our PvP-Bonus.

#189 Gigana

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Posted Yesterday, 12:10 AM

View PostWutangrza, on 20 November 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

Eh, you don't exactly have time to react. It's no different than an enhance shaman ascendance in 5.4. Both Seraphim, Wings, and Holy Avenger are off GCD, so you just wait till you have a GCD, hard swap swifty one shot. They aren't going to psychically predict your tab target before it happens and pre-deterrence.

You literally go from just doing your thing to next global = 100k+ damage hit possibility.
Except the moment you hear gladiatorlossa scream holy avenger/avenging wrath/seraphim, you pop your defensive cd/start kiting to mitigate the dmg you know is incoming.

And as I said in my example, if you're going after a ret, he'll have at least TV glyph + versatility up, in addition to the trinket set bonus. Other classes will likely have more mitigation up. Your 100k will more likely be something like 70-80k or even less depending what class you're nuking. And that's only assuming it actually crits, and even if you stack crit it's still gonna be only about 30-35% chance tops.

As I said, seems like something baddies will cry about, but mid-range or higher players will easily deal with. Of course, occasionally, you might get insta-gibs on someone if you get super-lucky and/or they make a mistake, but who wants to play like that?

As for the enh sham comparison, I played beastcleave to 2200+ in s15, and while we did occasionally get insta-gibs, it was a rare thing that you couldn't rely on.
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#190 Wutangrza

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Posted Yesterday, 01:12 AM

Honestly, FV shines most vs higher armor targets anyway, vs lower armor targets where we may also have less uptime (mages for example), seraphim might be the default go-to anyway, regardless of whether or not you are trying to hard swap explode someone.

#191 Gigana

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Posted Yesterday, 08:57 AM

View PostWutangrza, on 21 November 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

Honestly, FV shines most vs higher armor targets anyway, vs lower armor targets where we may also have less uptime (mages for example), seraphim might be the default go-to anyway, regardless of whether or not you are trying to hard swap explode someone.
Why?

FV also has a 10 yard range, as opposed to TV's melee range. It also empowers DS, giving it added dmg as well as added range. This effectively makes your every ability except crusader strike ranged.

So for example, against mages, FV can actually give you more constant pressure, especially if you combine it with seal of justice (or your partner's spammable snare). Seraphim, on the other hand, just seems like a great opportunity for them to blink or sprint or w/e away.
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#192 Wutangrza

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Posted Yesterday, 04:54 PM

Because the advantage of dealing pure holy damage is bypassing armor. On targets with low armor, the gains are reduced.

If you're playing against good mages for example, your uptime is likely to be a lot lower than vs a warrior or something, so the fact that FV being holy damage isn't as useful vs mages, and the fact that your uptime will be lower, seraphim becomes more attractive because you want to do as much damage as you can while you do have uptime.

edit: And again, you can't react to it. You can literally, if you wanted to, make a macro that will activate seraphim + on use trinket + wings and hammer of wrath instantaneously since all but HoW are off-GCD. GladiatorLosSA isn't going to help someone deal with that.

Edited by Wutangrza, Yesterday, 05:01 PM.


#193 Soulsticeyo

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Posted Yesterday, 05:40 PM

View PostWutangrza, on 20 November 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

Note, this was to a target dummy, but since holy damage ignores armor, it would hit a player with no other sources of damage reduction other than the 2 set PvP trinket bonus for 108k.

You forgot that Seraphim replaces FV, which means you will not do Holy damage on players = reduced by armor.

Edited by Soulsticeyo, Yesterday, 05:41 PM.


#194 Avengelyne

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Posted Yesterday, 05:56 PM

View PostSoulsticeyo, on 21 November 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

You forgot that Seraphim replaces FV, which means you will not do Holy damage on players = reduced by armor.

It was a hammer of wrath..
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View Postgravyrainbow, on 08 October 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

I prefer combat because my dong is large and I will face the enemy like a man rather than sprint over to a pillar for a re after my opener is up.

#195 Soulsticeyo

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Posted Yesterday, 06:52 PM

View PostAvengelyne, on 21 November 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

It was a hammer of wrath..

Ok, my fault. Anyway, our biggest damaging ability is TV/FV. Using Seraphim instead of FV you decrease our non-burst damage, also you lose FV range, which makes the game abit less comfortable against ranged dps. Our burst is still good even without Seraphim, so I don't see any reason to use it.

P.S. But it could be fun anyway, yes.

#196 Animefreak3K

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Posted Yesterday, 07:28 PM

View PostSoulsticeyo, on 21 November 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Ok, my fault. Anyway, our biggest damaging ability is TV/FV. Using Seraphim instead of FV you decrease our non-burst damage, also you lose FV range, which makes the game abit less comfortable against ranged dps. Our burst is still good even without Seraphim, so I don't see any reason to use it.

If you use Seraphim and Holy Avenger, Hammer of Wrath is your strongest attack, because it ignores Armor.
If you use FV+HA, then FV, DS (Procc+buff) and HoW are your strongest attacks.

Seraphim will push your % damage about 7,69% (points). Thought Versatility.
Mastery will be pushed by 20,41 %.
Haste will be pushed by 10%.
Multistrike will be pushed by 15,15%.

Templar's Verdict is pushed by ~33% against plate dps (non tank).
These Numbers variate in cause of different armortypes and tank (bonus armor, shield).

Burst is good without Seraphim, true :) .

#197 Serico

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Posted Yesterday, 08:14 PM

I wish I had seen this thread before I made the mistake of going to noxxic and looking at Stat priority - which has Multistrike listed as first, with mastery and haste last.

#198 Soulsticeyo

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Posted Yesterday, 09:13 PM

Anoter thing to consider: Strength vs Mastery (Blessing of Might vs Blessing of Kings)

#199 Animefreak3K

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Posted Yesterday, 11:59 PM

View PostSoulsticeyo, on 21 November 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

Anoter thing to consider: Strength vs Mastery (Blessing of Might vs Blessing of Kings)

If you're going into full Versatility, BoK is the way to go. Why?
Because Veratility pushes your %dmg and %heal.
BoK increased your Strenght, which does the same.
Recommend for better surviability :) .




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