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Vanguards Retribution Paladin PvP Guide (5.4.7)


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#81 Vanguards

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:00 AM

Updated the guide again! Haste reforge plainly cause of math, it just gives the most damage boost. There are other factors in PvP as well ofc that can sometimes result in other off stats being better, but for almost all cases haste is better.
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#82 Vanguards

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:17 PM

updated to 5.2
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#83 Dan6000

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:09 PM

Thanks for putting in the time to make this guide, nice to see a Ret guide for once! :)
-Peace

#84 Wutangrza

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:10 PM

Just wanted to say thanks to Vanguards for putting this together, but more importantly for streaming his play.

I was 2200+ in all brackets back in WotLK and then I quit and missed all of Cata, only coming back in MoP. Thanks to watching his play, I was able to fairly quickly get back in the swing of things, and am now flirting with the gladiator cutoff in 3's, and playing on a 2200+ MMR 5's.

So thanks Vanguards! Keep up the great work!

edit: One question I had, for Vanguards, and for other rets. What are you guys planning on doing once 5.3 drops regarding weapon enchants? On live I think glorious tyranny might always be better than dancing steel even if the opposing team doesn't have a disarm, just for the extra resil, but come 5.3 you're looking at

600 pvp power+ 50% disarm reduction
vs
1650 str proc

The uptime on dancing steel is around 60-70%, so doing some napkin math, 1650 * .6 = 990 str (on the low end) and 1650 * .7 = 1155 str (on the high end).

So, you have to ask, is 1155 str better than 600 PvP power, or in other words is PvP power almost twice as good as str? I don't think it is, so I'm planning on using two 498 weaps, one with dancing steel for teams with no disarm, and one with glorious tyranny for teams that do have a disarm.

Anyone else considering doing this?

Edited by Wutangrza, 27 April 2013 - 03:36 PM.


#85 Vanguards

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 03:52 PM

Updated for 5.3!

@Wutang I think the disarm reduction is needed when teams have the ability to disarm you. Having a second weapon with dancing steel is good though as it is a damage increase over the tyrannical weapon chain.

The biggest change in 5.3 would have to be our gemming. I'm going with currently Strength on red, Strength / Haste on yellow, and strength / PvP Power on blue. Resil gemming has been nerfed by half, and PvP Power gemming is no longer too effective. Gemming for hit on blue sockets is ineffective due to Rets being over-hit cap from PvP gear even when reforging out of it.
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#86 Vanguards

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:04 PM

Members should now be able to post here, if you have any questions or comments regarding my guide please feel free to post! I'll check back every so often.
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#87 user_194708

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:53 PM

Thanks....

#88 Capernaum

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:33 PM

nice guide but your views on the pve damage rotation is completely wrong. Other than that good work

#89 originalret

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:37 AM

View PostCapernaum, on 04 June 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

nice guide but your views on the pve damage rotation is completely wrong. Other than that good work

If you want an in-depth rotation guide based solely on pve, refer to Elitist Jerks
As was mentioned in the rotation section, every ability is situational so the short answer is there isnt a rotation. judgement should be used as a closer when you are not in range of your enemy, exorcism and hammer of wrath should not be used when spell reflect is up on target, CS and TV should not be used when opposing a warrior under "die by the sword" effects, etc.

rotation is also heavily dependant on the gear you have decided to run with. pvp 4set will put CS over HOTR until about 4 targets are in melee range, whereas pve 2set increases the value of exorcism, and the exorcism glyph for dotcleave (mass exo applies 6% debuff to all targets hit, HOTR is pure holy dmg increased by the debuff).
one footnote worth mentioning here is also to use HOTR very early into a fight against physical DPS (which is melee AND hunters) as this will apply the Weakened Blows effect.

the legendary meta gem may also be viable for pvp. i have tested this on a dk (who accidentally left blood pres on) and was getting 22k non-crits. the trade-off is that the gem REQUIRES a 502 ilvl helmet, which means you will have to run a pve helm for this (fortunately if you only run the helm you can retain your pvp 4set if you prefer to maintain pvp sets). I have tested the item downscale effect of this gem in a pve helm, and the meta continued to work just fine after the ilvl downscale in rangom bg's and arena. Ret paladins ahve the 3rd highest proc modifier for the meta gem, making it very appealing for us. This gem will also gian benefits from curse of the elements.

no matter what gear choice you make for pvp, one thing is always the same: we are way over hit cap by full tyrannical. in light of this, gear choice is not quite "pvp = win". i have traded out one piece of hit/haste (a rign i think) for a crit/mastery alternative, then reforged to haste. granted, this is not as much haste as would have been provided by the hit/haste item, but the extra off-stat is more valuable than empty hit rating. consider offstat choices and always check your reforges on mr robot.

glyph choice is very hard as well, as most of them are situational. glyph of TV will always be a given, but i have found against teams with heavy control (lock, huntard, fmage, rogue) that glyph of blessed life provided a nice boost to HP generation while under constant CC effects, which saved my ass more than once with a lucky Word of Glory. if you are running a team with low CC, then glyph of rebuke, glyph of blinding light and repentance talent become very viable for that extra level of control.

seal choice is either very simple, or very complicated depending on how much control/awareness you have over a fight and your opportunities to seal swap. a fight under 10 seconds, Seal of Justice ouputs more. over 10 seconds, Seal of Truth outputs more, as was previously mentioend by Vanguards, however it is possible to get the best of both worlds here.
Censure lasts for 12 seconds. if we take a 1 sec GCD into account for seal swaps, you could get 5 stacks of censure, swap to justice for 10 seconds, then swap back to truth to refresh your dot stacks (seal of justice slow lasts 8 seconds which is more than enoguh time to perform a swap for dot refresh, allowing both debuffs a potential 100% uptime). A massive downside to this is you will most likely be wasting GCD's on swapping these seals constantly. this kind of strategy should ONLY be considered if you experience blind spots in your rotation often.

at work right now, but when i get back i will post some macros i use for ret arena. these include a one-touch turn-evil macro, one-touch seal swapper and shift-mod profile for seemless single target/multi target rotation changes.

[EDIT: forgive the google redirect lnik for EJ, but their site appears to be down at the moment]

Edited by originalret, 05 June 2013 - 03:41 AM.


#90 flannelsoff

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:12 AM

step 1: partner up with hunter
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#91 Marshmellow

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:39 AM

View Postflannelsoff, on 05 June 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

step 1: partner up with hunter



It took 5 pages for someone to post a TLDR version W-T-F
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#92 originalret

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:51 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 05 June 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

It took 5 pages for someone to post a TLDR version W-T-F

shouldnt even take 1 page. they should just change the name of the site to "Hunter + You + Healer = 2200+". save everyone a lot of time.

#93 TrstNadie

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:12 PM

For non human rets, has anyone just ditched the medallion trinket for two dps trinkets instead?  CC so nuts anyway

#94 Mattadoro

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:24 PM

View PostTrstNadie, on 06 June 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

For non human rets, has anyone just ditched the medallion trinket for two dps trinkets instead?  CC so nuts anyway

do that as a ret and you are just asking for a 50% w/l i dont think theres a single dps class that needs trinket more than a ret
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#95 originalret

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 01:51 AM

most comps know if you plan on killing a healer with a ret next to him, you need to lock down the ret somehow as our arena peels are amazing.
having 2 trinkets (bubble with insta-cancelaura) is pretty vital for rets. If you want more burst get the chance-on-hit trinket and become an engineer for synapse springs (these share a cooldown with on-use trinkets so dont bother trying them with the on-use pvp power trink)

#96 dominera

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 08:06 AM

View Postflannelsoff, on 05 June 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

step 1: partner up with hunter



I liked the TLDR version better

#97 originalret

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:46 AM

5.4: pallies can fear people

#98 originalret

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:30 AM

The section for professions is a bit brief and could possibly use some more attention.
Ret Paladins have been told to embrace burst these last few patches as it seems to work quite well for us, so my query would be which of the following embraces it best:

BLACKSMITHING - 2 additional sockets: 640 haste / 320 strength passive
(Enchanting, Inscription and Jewelcrafting all provide same amount of benefit as Blacksmithing)
HERBALISM - Lifeblood: 20 seconds of 2880 Haste every 2 minutes on use. no trinket lockout
ENGINEERING - Synapse Springs II: 1920 strength for 10 seconds every 1 minute on use. locks out trinkets for 10 seconds
TAILORING - Swordguard Embroidery (3): 4000 AP for 15 seconds, and has a 55 second ICD with 15% proc chance (note: you will lose your existing cloak enchant with this one, 180 secondary stat)

If we are going for full burst, then the on-use professions move ahead. Lifebloof seems a no brainer as it requires no conflict with existing gear.
for a guaranteed 20 seconds moderate burst followed by 10 seconds of lower burst, synapse springs queued after a trinket use are best.
for a chance-on-hit gamble 15 second heavy burst, swordguard is the winner.

i personally have never liked the idea of queueing a trinket after springs as the cooldowns are left heavily un-syncronised, so i would probably recommend for full burst going with swordguard and lifebloom. having an addon monitor swordguard procs and Malevolent Gladiator's Insignia could line up some heavy damage when done right.

#99 Voidbringer

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 06:45 AM

@Vanguards

Thanks for the effort you put into making this guide. It's really useful.

I know that, as far as stats are concerned, it's been mentioned here already that it's basically: get hit and expertise cap, then it's Strength>Haste>Mastery=Crit. I'm just wondering if anybody has done any tests or knows from extensive experience how those stats and priorities contribute depending on the length and type of fight ( I know the stat weights from EJ, but that's PVE).

I get the differences between prioritizing Crit over Mastery or the other way round. What I'm specifically interested is whether Haste is absolutely the best (after STR) in every scenario. I know it decreases some of our CDs, GCDs, helps with casts, autoattack and censure ticks. But since arena is so "bursty" and our main/only kill windows are inside our CDs - I'm just wondering if in a scenario where: I'd have Lifeblood for burst, ran double dps in 2s and the fights lasted 60-90 seconds - would haste still be better than getting those RNG Crits with mastery damage on top of that (also assuming that my heals would be mainly from WoG and 2-3 stacks of SS).

InB4: "double dps in 2s, which no one cares about" - I'm new to Ret and will need to gear it up from scratch playing with a buddy of mine, so that info would be useful for me.

TL;DR: Is Haste still better than Crit/Mastery if you just ran in as double DPS YOLO mode and kill or die within the first 60-90 seconds of the game?

Thanks in advance for the answer(s)

Edit: No thoughts/opinions from anyone?
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#100 originalret

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 01:52 AM

Hi Voidbringer,

Stat weight for damage output in respect to burst still puts haste higher than mastery and crit, mainly because it allows us to do more in the short amount of time our burst is up. In circumstances where we dont manage to kill something during our burst, haste and crit offer some flexibility with survival. The crit is very RNG, while the haste is consistent. Given how poor RNG has treated ret since... basically forever, most prefer the reliability that haste offers over the "oh crap im at 5% hp this flash heal better crit or i am done for nope self heal for 30k im dead next global" that crit offers.

if in doubt you are better off looking at what weights the other top rets run with. most are going full str/haste (some even gemming prismatic sockets with pure haste) for optimum output.
from a pve stance, i have recently performed a horidon fight with another paladin who had geared much farther than myself, but was pushing heavy mastery while i was pushing haste. the recount said it all; i kicked his ass in output. I can assure you in a pvp situation you will find the results to be the same.

if your arena matches are lasting 60 - 90 seconds, there is incredibly little a double-dps team can do to survive that, with maybe the exception of retpal + shadpriest, and even then they both need to be on top of their game and making perfect use of cc (because in that scenario, you will try to kill the enemy within the first 20 seconds, then control then for the next 100 seconds until wings is ready again). If you anticipate fights to last that long, trade your dps friend for a healer. otherwise, keep grinding conquest til you have a decent amount of tyr and try arena again.




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