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#41 affix

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:25 PM

locks may very well ride over mages, but thats because of their selfhealing and defence atm. It doesn't change that mage armor is a pretty bad design, and the nerf was a step into the right direction.

I'm not sure how you can say it is bad design when it:

1) didn't create any imbalances

2) fixed a whole fuckload of imbalances

That's perfect design, IMO, but you don't enjoy fighting against the only other caster that has the tools to compete against you, so the abstract "bad design" thing just gets thrown around a lot :/

Furthermore you guys are contradicting yourselves in this very thread with comments about how it should be 25% instead of 35% - if it is "bad design" the % doesn't matter, it should be a different effect.

The whole mage armor design was designed to prevent dots from destorying mages, so personally I think you guys deserve a magic % reduction, like netherprot, I think you deserve it because of all your active abilities you need to use, which can easily be negated by purge etc. Having more passive defence will ultimately help you, and prevent a flawed design thats very annoying.

locks should be tuned down with their selfhealing, the selfhealing locks have now shouldn't be in this cata enviorment, it's disgustingly good, and needs a whoop from GC's nerfbat.

yep yep, all self healing needs a huge nerf, not sure WTF they're thinking with the DK buff
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#42 affix

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:33 PM

I still don't understand why mages cant just run war mage pally and do good vs lock teams. And RLS is not an auto win vs mage teams.

Warriors are too trainable by teams with casters in them unless you have a Shaman. WMS does better vs. caster teams, WMP does better against Rogue teams. If Rogues start to not suck dick then WMP will become more common.

well i appreciate your response but i think where your agrument goes wrong is when you say "lock comps"

rls= shaman purge your shields + dispeling his mut rogue so he stays on you. not the lock here

shadowcleave= dks being massively op and having a ton of anit magic tools, good ranged dmg, and cds for everything. if he gets on you, sadly you die shortly after. its not the lock who is the real issue here.

in rls or shadowcleave you could easily replace the lock with a hunter or mage for example and you would get raped just as well simply because its not the lock exploiting your weaknesses.

Locks are really, really good at shutting down swap attempts. We can't CC you and swap because of Felhunters. If we juke spell lock, Tongues keeps our casted burst in check. Fear + HoT breaks up our entire team's kills attempts.

In all of the comps you mentioned, Locks are (obviously) not a viable target by most if not all good Mage comps, and they stop our kill attempts well enough to beat us the majority of the time. I don't need to be telling you guys this - I'm sure you know yourself that when you see a Mage on the other team you don't exactly say "oh crap".

so we are left with a few things here. you get raped by purges. that has nothing to do with mage armor. you get raped by dks. nothing to do with mage armor outside of his strang. mutilate rogues, if given uptime on you, rape you. again this isnt the lock.

The fact that we A) can't kill you and B) will get totally fucked on swaps and pressure by you absolutely has a lot to do with Mage Armor. If you aren't dotting us we get pushback protection via barriers, so more damage. If you blanket spell lock us on kill attempts, Mage Armor makes it less of a big deal.

even in all those lock comps we play if u didnt have mage armor you wouldnt be getting raped because of our full fears and full dots. it would still be because of the other classes exploiting your weaknesses. you should be asking for something to protect you against your weaknesses, and it certainly isnt against casters.

Getting dotted and turtled to death was one of our weaknesses. We asked for something to protect us against it, we got it (Mage Armor), and ever since, Mages and Locks have been pretty much identically powerful in arenas.

lastly dont quote some bg956 has 9/10 teams who have a lock on their team. that arguement doesnt support you need for mage armor because again its not the lock in the comp who is giving you the massive issues you face. that piece of info would support an argument such as "locks are more valuable in more 3v3 comps then mages are".

I was quoting current representation statistics to preemptively counter the argument that Mages are more successful than Locks in arenas right now - not a lot of people realize that Locks are the #1 DPS class in arena reps right now.
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#43 misios

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:35 PM

Yeah, it's a design that helps the balance, but it's a REALLY annoying design. It ruins the game experience for alot of people, and if mages had something else to deal with the stuff they need, it would be more fun. I guess what im saying is that I just wanted them to fix the imbalance in another way, which doens't involve designs that are annoying as fuck.

the whole disagreement about the % or how it should be is suggestions, and all showing that it should either be tuned or changed.


Blizz has done alot of tunings lately, hopefully they aren't done changing stuff, because it's not fine yet.
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#44 Nadagast

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:37 PM

I'm still not really convinced that self healing is too strong, I dunno.

Yeah we put up big numbers on the end of arena scoreboard but we really don't have too much self healing while being trained. Most of our healing done in an arena is overhealing (or healing Life Tap damage) to ourselves or our pet.
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#45 affix

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:45 PM

I'm still not really convinced that self healing is too strong, I dunno.

Yeah we put up big numbers on the end of arena scoreboard but we really don't have too much self healing while being trained. Most of our healing done in an arena is overhealing (or healing Life Tap damage) to ourselves or our pet.

The self healing as an absolute number isn't necessarily overpowered, it is the healing in conjunction with mitigation/damage distribution (i.e. soul link + fel or demon armor).

How often to you get trained by non-melee cleave teams? I pretty much see Locks as totally unkillable except when playing with a Warrior
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#46 misios

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:54 PM

How often to you get trained by non-melee cleave teams? I pretty much see Locks as totally unkillable except when playing with a Warrior


Exactly this, when a class has so many abilities that it's no longer a viable nuketarget something is wrong.
When I played RLS in wotlk, the affli version we couldn't go for mages in wizzardcleaves because they always got away, we didn't have dispell and I had to deal with mage armor and I didn't do enough dmg @ the mage.

obviously it might be a biased veiw because of us playing RLS in wotlk, but not being able to go for a class. The same example can be used for wizzardcleaves vs destro netherprot in wotlk. Or affli locks with all their migration and portal right now.

All the surv prevents the enemy team punishing overextending locks, thus letting the lock play to freely. This is one of the reasons to why a target shouldn't be "unnukeable"
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#47 Malacothdai

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:55 PM

Furthermore you guys are contradicting yourselves in this very thread with comments about how it should be 25% instead of 35% - if it is "bad design" the % doesn't matter, it should be a different effect.


What if the % is the bad design? Surely you would agree if it was 99% or 100% it would be bad design.
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#48 Nadagast

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:59 PM

I don't think Locks should be unkillable but I'm not sure they are (I guess I'd have to see how the game goes with full gear + experience).

Also I really don't think Lock self healing is a really significant contributor to Lock survivability atm.
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#49 Filovirus

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:05 PM

I don't think Locks should be unkillable but I'm not sure they are (I guess I'd have to see how the game goes with full gear + experience).

Also I really don't think Lock self healing is a really significant contributor to Lock survivability atm.


I agree with this. Lock healing while being trained really isn't that big of an issue. Over a long game with life tapping and pet healing it really adds up. If you're taking high damage the self-healing really isn't what makes warlocks hard to kill.
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#50 affix

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:05 PM

What if the % is the bad design? Surely you would agree if it was 99% or 100% it would be bad design.

That's poor tuning, not bad design - just like Ice Barrier isn't badly designed, but 1 million absorption ice barrier would be poorly tuned.

I don't think Locks should be unkillable but I'm not sure they are (I guess I'd have to see how the game goes with full gear + experience).

Also I really don't think Lock self healing is a really significant contributor to Lock survivability atm.

What is? Honestly curious, not rhetorical

(thanks to everyone posting for not taking a hostile tone - I'm really not trying to troll here I just think Mages will be in a pretty sorry state next patch against any Lock or DK team, and that's the majority of all teams :( )
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#51 Barburas

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:07 PM

What is? Honestly curious, not rhetorical


Imo it's a combination of being able to reach 30% extra healing with demon armour and the mitigation that they get with soul link when pets aren't especially killable currently.
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#52 misios

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:10 PM

^in combination of 21 sec portal cd
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#53 Dkaioshin

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:15 PM

I'm in agreement for mage armor giving just a flat spelldamage reduction.
I don't think it would solve all of your problems, but in terms of "design" I think it would be easier to balance around doing less (spell) damage to mages rather than them spending less time in CC, especially since every healer has a dispel anyway.
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#54 Filovirus

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:17 PM

Imo it's a combination of being able to reach 30% extra healing with demon armour and the mitigation that they get with soul link when pets aren't especially killable currently.


Yup. Considering our self-healing is actually pretty trivial while getting trained due to Demon Armor. I am a little curious as to why Demon Armor gives us +30% healing in an environment where Mortal Strike effects aren't really significant. Considering the unhealable damage warlocks would take from teams like ATC in Season 8 when Demon Armor only gave a bonus of +26% healing received. Why Blizzard buffed it for Cataclysm was a surprise to me.
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#55 Filovirus

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:19 PM

Regarding Mage Armor I don't think it should reduce the duration of DoT spells, the CC/silence duration reduction I could handle. If a warlock gets CCed, there is still a lot of damage going out through dots on multiple targets. When a mage gets CCed no damage goes out.
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#56 Jarmen

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:19 PM

I'm not sure how you can say it is bad design when it:

1) didn't create any imbalances

2) fixed a whole fuckload of imbalances

That's perfect design, IMO, but you don't enjoy fighting against the only other caster that has the tools to compete against you, so the abstract "bad design" thing just gets thrown around a lot :/

Furthermore you guys are contradicting yourselves in this very thread with comments about how it should be 25% instead of 35% - if it is "bad design" the % doesn't matter, it should be a different effect.


yea ok lets just say that u totally need 50% mage armor vs locks. that still does not explain why u should sit in every magic cc and silence half the time than any other class in the game(please tell me how mages deserve that since the release of cata with every durationreducetalent wiped). the spell should just give a 50% duration reduce vs damage over time magic effects and u should be fine vs your nemesis. mage armor how it is now is like combining 8 talentpoints in 1 ridiculously overpowered spell
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#57 affix

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:25 PM

yea ok lets just say that u totally need 50% mage armor vs locks. that still does not explain why u should sit in every magic cc and silence half the time than any other class in the game(please tell me how mages deserve that since the release of cata with every durationreducetalent wiped).

These kinds of abstractions don't really help, because our abilities are balanced against our toolset as a whole. It's like saying why do Warlocks have spell lock when no other pet has a ranged interrupt. So what? You're balanced around the assumption that you have it, so it's fine.

To answer the 'why do we need it' question, we're a pressure based class that puts out ZERO prsesure when CC'd. If we lose momentum we lose the fight, that's not really true for locks

the spell should just give a 50% duration reduce vs damage over time magic effects and u should be fine vs your nemesis.

We're already not fine vs. Locks, though, and I don't think anybody here is disputing that...
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#58 Nadagast

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:29 PM

What is? Honestly curious, not rhetorical


50% CoEx, 21 sec CD port, and +30% healing taken from Demon Armor combined with Soul Link are the biggest ones I think. 50% CoEx is really so unbelievably huge, and it's getting nerfed. Any time I'm being trained by a melee + caster, or 2 melee, CoEx is really great. Even against 2 casters, 50% CoEx is insane.

I'm not really sure I think Locks are unkillable now though. Maybe I'm wrong but I've been trained pretty stupidly by non-melee cleaves.
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#59 affix

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:31 PM

50% CoEx, 21 sec CD port, and +30% healing taken from Demon Armor are the biggest ones I think. 50% CoEx is really so unbelievably huge, and it's getting nerfed.

Yeah I think Demon Armor + earth shield + cleansing waters = fucking retarded, Shaman just don't really need to cast to keep locks alive vs. me, snares/roots become a liability :( Didn't really want to mention it here because I think people would freak out if that were lowered/removed.

I'm not really sure I think Locks are unkillable now though. Maybe I'm wrong but I've been trained pretty stupidly by non-melee cleaves.

By what, specifically?
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#60 Valmior

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:31 PM

Just a thought that me and friends tossed around about the way mage armor worked: why doesn't it shorten the duration of everything, but still do the full amount of damage? As in your dots would be half duration but ticking twice as fast- kind of adds a negative component of mage armor (and yes I know this kind of defeats the purpose of the armor helping mages against dot damage, but it would make things interesting, haha).
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