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So why exactly did CloS and ShS cds get nerfed


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#161 Kzrs

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 10:42 PM

If people would learn to read, I'm saying that cloak was balanced around a WotLK environment where dot classes could kill them in between cloak cooldowns, and the cloak cooldown was balanced because you could stop a kill attempt every 1 minute, and there were many kill attempts when you had full dots on a rogue. With current health pools, and with recuperate exacerbating the problem, it's practically impossible for such classes to reduce a rogue's HP enough to start a kill attempt within that one minute window.

Just incase people can't read again, i'm specifically referring to dot based casters such as affliction warlocks and shadowpriests, since that's the only perspective that I can really speak from.


I read what you said, it's probably not a good idea to come off as condescending when you are completely wrong. You are complaining in your original post that you can't global rogues between CloS cd, which is ridiculous and that is WotLK mentality. Your second point about not being able to kill a rogue in that 1 minute time frame is also garbage and you probably need to rethink how you play if you and 1 other dps cannot manage to kill a rogue between that cd. Everyone here disagrees with you. Yes, imp recuperate is overpowered but you are over exaggerating the effectiveness of it by just a bit.
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#162 Torrent

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 11:20 PM

You are complaining in your original post that you can't global rogues between CloS cd, which is ridiculous and that is WotLK mentality.


That's the thing, I wasn't complaining. I was simply comparing the state of rogue survivability in WotLK to that of Cata. I was saying how cloak was a necessity in WotLK because you needed it to stop kill attempts (because rogues would otherwise die with a stack of dots on them), whereas now i'd say rogue survivability is at the point where cloak isn't used for that reason as much as it should be, mostly because of recuperate, perhaps because of Quickening as well.
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#163 Malladon

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 11:26 PM

I think any rogue who's played against a good Shadowplay/Shatterplay (druid or shaman variant)/Shadowcleave would disagree with you. Casters are still very much capable of killing rogues, though they may not always be the best target, that has changed since WotlK, and to be completely honest it had to. Good wizcleaves still target me before my partners on average, in WotlK that was the case without exception.
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#164 Ashe

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 12:53 PM

...I'm saying that cloak was balanced around a WotLK environment where dot classes could kill them in between cloak cooldowns...


This expansion called The Burning Crusade would like to have a word with you.

That's the thing, I wasn't complaining. I was simply comparing the state of rogue survivability in WotLK to that of Cata. I was saying how cloak was a necessity in WotLK because you needed it to stop kill attempts (because rogues would otherwise die with a stack of dots on them), whereas now i'd say rogue survivability is at the point where cloak isn't used for that reason as much as it should be, mostly because of recuperate, perhaps because of Quickening as well.


Rogue survivability didn't go up solely due to recuperate.
It might have something to do with dots not ticking for a retarded % of your healthpool.

As for dots, I think they shouldn't kill people. Maybe contribute to 10-20% of the damage required to kill someone, no more.
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#165 Granter

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 01:07 PM

i was reading abit on hydramist the other day and i stepped upon something, i quote

If you play the class, you are very likely to underestimate its strength.

by reading this thread it really feels like most of you rogues underestimate your survivability, in my personal opinion it's extremly high and you are one of the classes i prefer to not nuke:)
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#166 Ashe

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 01:36 PM

i was reading abit on hydramist the other day and i stepped upon something, i quote

If you play the class, you are very likely to underestimate its strength.

by reading this thread it really feels like most of you rogues underestimate your survivability, in my personal opinion it's extremly high and you are one of the classes i prefer to not nuke:)


Not sure what you mean, everyone is saying that the reason Subtlety is so hard to kill is RECUPERATE.

So Blizzard nerfs CloS which also nerfs Assassination considerably more than a nerf to Recuperate would have.

I think noone would've had a problem with a slight nerf to Recuperate.

Or alternatively rework the Energetic Recovery to work with Slice And Dice instead.
This means you wouldn't keep recuperate up 24/7 as Sub, and make it a choice between damage and survivability.
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#167 Rueben SR_US

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 02:28 PM

by reading this thread it really feels like most of you rogues underestimate your survivability, in my personal opinion it's extremly high and you are one of the classes i prefer to not nuke:)


I think you're reading the thread wrong then

tons of rogues here agree that our survivability is top notch right now...and tons of rogues have pointed out that nerfing CLOS is a retarded way to nerf such survivability when there is a more obvious issue

I digress though, if Blizzard is going to leave sub's damage at literally the worst of any pvp spec and our control remains just a slight notch above the other melee, then we should have high survivability
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#168 Pythe

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 03:07 PM

Cloak is one of those abilities (see ams) that can be used purely offensively. the longer the make the cd (even through slight increases), the less likely it is that you'll burn it so that you can continue humping someone's leg for an additional 5 seconds of uninterrupted leg humping goodness. Rogue survivability is a little too good, a slight cd nerf on CloS adresses this. It's not gamebreaking, and it wont change your gameplay noticeably
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#169 Ashe

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 03:36 PM

Shapeshifting should have a cooldown since it's a ability that can be used offensively and defensively.
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#170 Shyter

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 03:12 AM

Or alternatively rework the Energetic Recovery to work with Slice And Dice instead.
This means you wouldn't keep recuperate up 24/7 as Sub, and make it a choice between damage and survivability.

I approve of this change, it'll also help sub out in pve (lol)
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#171 Gowan

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 03:19 AM

blizzard making oversights once again nurf war/feral mobility -> buff dk mobility, nurf rogue cloak -> leave dks ams even though its already better as is and overall class strength of dk > every other melee on live sometimes i wonder if we play the same game as the devs
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#172 grio

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 05:56 AM

The fact that DKs will be literally untouchable by rogues is more important to me than all the other patch changes combined.
At least half of the teams in 3v3 will have a DK in them:

"DK is peeling me, can't reach the [class], switching. Incoming burst!"
...
Out of range
...
Must be behind your target
...
Out of range
...
"Never mind, he is running circles around me. Throwing."
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