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So why exactly did CloS and ShS cds get nerfed


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#41 Lieto

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 11:22 AM

2 Shaileen

I can explain it all easily.

Their concept is to keep people paying, re-subscribing and bringing friends.. generally they should make kids HAPPY. To do so they need to make their class overpowered, completely stomping things with over 9000 huge numbers popping on the screen giving a feeling of joy, happiness and easy gladiator titles. But the trick is that its impossible for every class to be overpowered, so they make different classes overpowered every once in a while.

The feeling of happiness is lasting, so its better to have a kid who got 2200 in s5 and sucking b0lls on 1500 now then have a kid who was stuck at 1700 for entire expansion with no progress for him whatsoever.

Now how about all those things like "Dude, you should renew your subscription, your mage would completely OWN stuff now! You must renew it!". And that person does renew. Why not if his class is on peak and he would be able to achieve something he never could achieve?

That concept is working for them like 6 years now, no one would play the game for so long if there would be some sort of steady balance from the start.
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#42 aslanii

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 12:27 PM

nada. they need to fix our surv vs melee not casters. our only def vs a caster is cloak and i find myself spamming it most of the game.
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#43 Rueben SR_US

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 01:41 PM

da fuck is Blizzard thinking...

also, 15% damage on hemo/bs is hardly going to produce "insane damage"

the find weakness buff will be big, that's it. I seriously do not agree if anyone thinks those damage buffs warranted garrote nerf, shs nerf, clos nerf all on top of the smoke bomb nerf (WHICH SHOULD BE NERFED) even considering the CC changes (which we got fucking slammed by too)
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#44 Lieto

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 01:59 PM

also, 15% damage on hemo/bs is hardly going to produce "insane damage"

5% more agility
20% more armor reduction from opener (and we all know how armor reduction works, 20% after 50% is a lot of damage)
15% on stab and hemo
Gouge not breaking on bleeds on top of that

It will produce insane damage. When mutilate (just mutilate) was nerfed in s5 by like 15% we went from heros to somewhat average. There we are taking damage increase to EVERYTHING and if that goes live i can bet 10 golds we are going to hit our maximum.
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#45 Rueben SR_US

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 02:02 PM

no it won't produce insane damage

when find weakness isn't up it's going to be almost the same as it is now

with FW up it will be better. Insane? Not buying it. You can try speccing into aggression/lethality now and go hit a target dummy. Not quite insane.
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#46 Rueben SR_US

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 02:04 PM

try this spec and go whack a target dummy, look at the crits of course. That's what's coming.
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#47 Lieto

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 02:10 PM

1. First of all your Find weakness uptime as sub is rather high.
Almost 20 seconds every minute from shadow dance. Why 20s? Because it lasts for whole shadowdance + 10 seconds.
Thats a 30% uptime mind you.
double vanishes
occasional restealth (even better with new gouge).
In fact i waited forever for that gouge change and is really excited. that would be super awesome control garrote>kidney>gouge>cloak. Vanish for like 3 seconds and repeat. Basically that warlock can kiss my ars 1v1

2. 5% agility is 250 agility. Yes please.

3. I tried aggression with lethality on dummy. With my sht gear (ilvl 330 avg) it produced 18.5k stab crits avg 21k max. On live i am specced into PWound 3/3. Thats without utilizing maximum uptime on find weakness.
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#48 Rueben SR_US

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 02:15 PM

Not gonna keep arguing with you because I agree that the buffs are substantial, but they are not OMFG HUGE like you seem to be implying. Aka, enough to warrant a slew of survivability nerfs and god knows what else.

Just a quick note on your find weakness math though:

1. First of all your Find weakness uptime as sub is rather high.
Almost 20 seconds every minute from shadow dance. Why 20s? Because it lasts for whole shadowdance + 10 seconds.
Thats a 30% uptime mind you.


It's not like that at all. Your first attack during shadowdance will not benefit from the find weakness armor pen as it applies the buff IIRC. Shadowdance also only lasts 8 seconds, not 10.

Then, after a shadowdance you should have 0 energy or close to it if you do it right. Your last 10 seconds of the buff there start on empty.

It's a good buff anyway, never said otherwise, but I contend that our damage is absolutely not going to be "nuts."
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#49 Lieto

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 02:26 PM

Well i never said that people will die as soon as they will see you.
But pvp (and lets say 3v3) works that way that its all about those 10% damage and those last bits of damage usually make the difference between priest trinketing and not trinketing.

Now lets assume you was playing with a dk who also got damage buffs vs lets say a warrior who got some damage nerfed — here you go you will do like 50%+ more pressure comparing to how it was for you. So if you put together all those +10% +15% -10% etc on different classes rogues are suddenly a most wanted class in 3v3.

Then, after a shadowdance you should have 0 energy or close to it if you do it right.

Lets just put it this way — with all the vanishes and dances you can sustain 70% armor reduction buff for around 80 seconds right from the opener. And then another 18 seconds in half a minute and so on.
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#50 Cyanne

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 02:27 PM

5% more agility
20% more armor reduction from opener (and we all know how armor reduction works, 20% after 50% is a lot of damage)
15% on stab and hemo
Gouge not breaking on bleeds on top of that

It will produce insane damage. When mutilate (just mutilate) was nerfed in s5 by like 15% we went from heros to somewhat average. There we are taking damage increase to EVERYTHING and if that goes live i can bet 10 golds we are going to hit our maximum.



The patch when they nerfed muti by 15% they also "fixed" the BS glyph and fixed the bug which alowed muti to do dmg as if the target was always <35% if u had the DD talent. That's why it's dmg went so low.

And fyi its not 15% more dmg on bs and hemo, it's +15% to the modifiers: bs goes from 325% to 340%, hemo (with daggers) goes from 199% to 214%. That's a 4.61% increse to bs dmg and a 7.53% increase to hemo dmg.

In full pvp gear with resil trinkets (3/5 359 main set, 359 weps+thrown) i have 5400 agi as shs. +5% bonus on sinister calling will give me 216 more agi.

While all of these are very good dmg bonuses i highly doubt they can be called "insane dmg buffs" by any means.

I won't comment on the FW buff since i cba to go and search for the formula but tbh i don't really agree. Imo we didn't need another shadow dance buff... we needed smth to help us not to hit like a wet noodle for 52 sec while we don't have it.


PS: my numbers might be wrong since i've just done them in a hurry so please point out any evetual (and very possible) mistakes.
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#51 Ispen

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 02:43 PM

Hmm where to start
* Executioner (Mastery) has been increased from 2% to 2.5% per point. Sub mastery=Finishers, I dont know if somethings wrong with AP coefficients with Rupture and Evisc but they do little to no damage.
* Find Weakness now grants 35/70% armor reduction, up from 25/50%. 20% after 50% is not that much damage compared to from 80% to 100%. The last percentages of ARP is the most valuable ones unfortunately.
* Preparation no longer resets the cooldown of Evasion. I have really no idea why this deserved a nerf. Did anyone really whine about this ? Evasion is such a shit ability with the 15% dodge we have.
* Sanguinary Vein now gives a rogue a 50/100% chance for their own Bleed effects to not break their Gouge. Good change, not gonna lie.
* Shadowstep's cooldown has been increased to 24 seconds, up from 20 seconds. If you played rogue you would know that even 20sec felt too long with how you are getting snared&slowed. If you are increasing cooldowns make it usable while rooted
* Sinister Calling now grants 30% Agility, up from 25%, and increases Backstab and Hemorrhage damage by an additional 40%, up from 25%. So around more 5% Agility ? meaning approx 250 agi. BESTEN BUFF

Oh regarding to clos nerf, I am speechless
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#52 Kzrs

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 02:45 PM

Honestly, take away the CloS nerf and Step nerf and I wouldn't complain again. I think most people are complaining about it is because it's such a random nonsensical change that caught a lot of us off guard.
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#53 Lieto

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 02:50 PM

2 Jaded
Thx for doing the math, i was "slightly" exaggerating indeed :P
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#54 Merkologist

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:03 PM

the only things that needed nerfing were smokebomb and combat readiness, and to compensate we should have recieved the dmg buff that we needed. all these other half assed things like shs and clos nerf and garrote change is pathetic.

the right route would have been to nerf recup, instead of evasion which in turn would have probably made rogues spend the extra pts in assassination which would help the "bloatedness" that we are feeling right now in our talents

but hey im just a rogue, and i know nothing about my class.
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#55 Cyanne

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:16 PM

Smoke bomb idd needed a nerf. I dunno wtf that ability was doing in game. As well as RoF, solar beam, kockbacks, 21sec los porting, colossus smash (or better said SD) etc.

Tons of abilities that seemed to be thought out for lol rbgs or w/o any thinking behind them anyway.

We never rly needed combat readiness. We had 2 evasion (as rng as they are) vs melee anyway, but blizz always wants to push their new shit in front anyway. I think we are lucky we didn't lost evasion entirely now that we got cmbt readiness. (like it happened to wars with intercept and heroic leap :/ )

tl;dr absolutely no point in this post, just babling.
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#56 Lieto

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:19 PM

the only things that needed nerfing were smokebomb and combat readiness, and to compensate we should have recieved the dmg buff that we needed.

Nice logic you have there bro.
So when you nerf something that was overpowered and needed a nerf you need to COMPENSATE for it?
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#57 Keldron

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:27 PM

Im my opinion rouges needed a damage buff, a nerf to recouperate and a smokebomb nerf. The mobility should have been left well alone.
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#58 Shrouds

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:29 PM

Im my opinion rouges needed a damage buff, a nerf to recouperate and a smokebomb nerf. The mobility should have been left well alone.

.... have you even played a rogue? Mut mobility is fine?
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#59 Sammm

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:29 PM

Nice logic you have there bro.
So when you nerf something that was overpowered and needed a nerf you need to COMPENSATE for it?


Fairly sure he was just pointing out that those two abilities were a little over the top in their current form, while our damage was fairly weak. Thus changing the them both will help balance us out a bit.

But hey, feel free to continue being a prick for no apparent reason, bro.
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#60 Cyanne

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:30 PM

Nice logic you have there bro.
So when you nerf something that was overpowered and needed a nerf you need to COMPENSATE for it?



To be fair rogues didn't bring too much beside smoke bomb. When the whole class it's based mostly on a (broken) ability and you nerf that, i think it's only fair to also compensate in some areas so that you bring that class more in line with the rest.
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