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#1 nim

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:29 PM

EDIT 06/12/2012: Happened by here and noticed this thread is still getting hits, be aware that the info below is over a year old and probably totally worthless to you. Feel free to read, but don't expect any of it to apply to the current game state.

I was bored. Feel free to mention anything I overlooked and I'll tack it on somewhere.

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1. Gear
2. Spec
3. New Spells
4. Misc

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1. Gear

TLDR: Spellpen (until ~200) > +hit (until 4%) > Int/Crit > Mastery/Haste.

1.1 Stats

What is the Spellpen cap?

The upper cap is 240 (195 from Paladin/Shaman/Preist + 45 from Mage Armor). Anything above 200 will probably do you, but there's no harm in having the extra 40.

What is the +hit cap?

4% and you can get it from gems, reforging or items, it's pretty easy.

What's better Haste, Crit or Mastery?

Short answer? Cirt.

Long answer? Each stat has different things it can offer you;

Crit: The general consensus right now is that Crit is king, second only to Int (maybe) for most desired PvP damage stat. The changes to Shatter and Resil (no more -crit chance) have changed Crit from an almost worthless dump stat into our premier choice. You'll want at least 20% crit in PvP and stacking it doesn't really start to lose it's appeal until you reach 25-28%.

Haste: It's still really good, almost good as it was in Wrath. Faster casts and quicker GCDs have always been a huge boon to Mages. Sadly with the rise of crit it's unlikely we'll ever get back to the days of passive Hero/Lust. A few Mages are still stacking it, but for most it's been relegated to a second pick. Something to think about grabbing once you have enough Crit.

Mastery: Kind of a dump stat at the moment, nobody is really going out of their way to get it. It's not bad, in fact it's probably one of the better Mastery stats in the game since most things we attack or burst on are going to be frozen. Alas good as it may be it just can't compete with Crit or even Haste. Take what you get on your PvP gear, but don't go out of your way to get more.

How much Resilience do I want?

A lot, Resilience is better than it's ever been before. Of course no matter how good it might be you get zero benefit when no one is attacking you, but there arn't many comps a Mage can run these days where he'll be anything other than the favored target.

Most of us are running between 2.8 and 3.4k. I wouldn't go out of your way to gem it at the moment, just take what gear gives you then swap on a trinket or two if you think you need a bit more.

1.2 Gemming

What Meta should I get?

Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond or Destructive Shadowspirit Diamond depending on how much you want to monkey around with Gems, but note that if you take Reflect Meta you won't have it long. The next client patch is adding a +Int/+Crit Damage Meta and all the +crit damage Meta Gems will only require 3 Red so it'll be between Chaotic and the new Meta at that point.

What should I gem?

As a general rule of thumb Int in Red, Int/Crit in Yellow and a mix of Int/Crit/Hit/Pen in Blue depending on your needs. Keep in mind that with the current socket spread on our gear you'll have to use Blue in you Belt Buckle if you're using the Chaotic Meta.

1.3 Enchants

What cloak enchant should I get?

Skip +70 Spellpen, it's budgeted poorly and one Spellpen item plus one Gem will get you to cap.

Between +50 Int and +65 Crit it's a tossup. They're both good, I'd go with +int for now just because it's a ton cheaper.

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2. Spec

What should I spec?

Here's the 0/0/27 skeleton for PvP Frost, after this you have a few options. In the frost tree most Mages are bouncing between Frostfire Orb and Early Frost. EF gives you the quick snare, but it's a ton less burst DPS than FFO (proc spam ho!). That's assuming FFO works and doesn't bug out and fuck you over (It'll do this a lot). For the last point you can pick between 1/3 Enduring Winter or 1/2 Piecing Chill. Once you've got 31 in frost there's a few cookie cutters to choose from;

9/0/32: More mobility and Burst from Imp Blink and Invocation.

2/8/31: Pushback resistance and extra control from Burning Soul and Impact. 1/2 in Blazing Speed since there's no better place to put it (Note: BS kinda sucks now, doesn't remove snares)

7/3/31: Balanced, has mobility and pushback tank. Least offensive pressure, but less worry about getting spells off and moving into position.

What are some good Arcane or Fire specs?

There are none. Sorry folks, but Frost is just too far ahead of the game at the moment. Between bust or sustained Damage, control, survivability, mobility and endurance Frost Mages come first in at least half the categories and is very competitive in everything else. Spec whatever you want for a larf, but Frost is the only option right now if being optimal is your goal.

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3. New Spells

What do our New Spells do?

Flame(Frostfire) Orb: As the tooltip notes it fires forward from where the Mage is facing. It will float forward about 30 yards before dissipating unless it finds a target. When something comes in range of it's laser beams (bout 7 yards) it will stop and attack. Once that target is dead or moves out of range the Orb will move on, or it'll stay and float in place, or it'll get stuck on a crack in the floor, or it'll just vanish. Yes Orb is kinda buggy.

Ring of Frost: The mechanics of this spell are a fair bit more complex than what the tooltip covers.

  • The 12s duration begins when you cast the spell, not when the 3s "activation" triggers.
  • The effect of the spell is a ring, nothing will be frozen unless it crosses over or is caught standing in the visible spell animation. Standing in the middle will not result in getting frozen until you touch the edge of the circle.
  • The spell has a built in cooldown on re-freezing targets. Once a target escapes from the first freeze they cannot be frozen again for about 3s, this immunity appears to apply to multiple Rings.
  • The spell is on the same DR as Polymorph, any spell or effect that falls under the Disorient category of diminishing returns is affected by and will affect Ring of Frost.

Time Warp: It's Bloodlust/Heroism, obeys all the same rules, restrictions and cooldowns. Only difference is it's a Mage casting it... Oh and it has different Icon.

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4. Misc

What should I be doing in rated BGs?

Having lots of fun. Aside from healing there is nothing Mages arn't good at in a Battleground setting. Stupid CC and area denial, strong against assist training, good ranged damage, crazy mobility and endless endurance. Mages make great trouble shooters, attacking nodes, defending nodes, running interference for Flag Carriers or slowing an attack wave. If someone isn't giving you direction look for a place something isn't being done and do it.

What 3s Comps are Good for us Now?

3v3 for Mages is wide open at the moment. This is due in large part to Mage Armor giving us enough endurance to hang with long game teams like Warlocks have always been able to. Other stuff like Warlocks losing defensive dispel and better instant damage helps too.

WMP works, RMP works (and will work better when Priests get buffed), MLD, MLS, Shatterplay, MLP, it all works at the moment. Enjoy the flexibility that comes with never having to worry about your mana supply.

Edited by nim, 13 June 2012 - 12:51 AM.

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#2 affix

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:35 PM

all of the +3% crit metas require 3 reds next patch, the crit one is better IMO

#3 nim

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:37 PM

affix said:

all of the +3% crit metas require 3 reds next patch, the crit one is better IMO

You really think so? Crit is a wonderful stat, but there has to be an event horizon past which Int goes back to being ideal.
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#4 affix

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:47 PM

nim said:

You really think so? Crit is a wonderful stat, but there has to be an event horizon past which Int goes back to being ideal.
i'll be happy when i hit 25% base crit, and in S9 gear that doesn't look like it'll happen

#5 Xxlegolasxxz

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 08:52 PM

affix said:

i'll be happy when i hit 25% base crit, and in S9 gear that doesn't look like it'll happen

Why not? Heres a build with pretty easy to obtain gear even for a strict non-raider, that has over 25% chance to crit

http://chardev.org/?profile=10696

#6 Opix

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 08:56 PM

It's about time the mage forums got something like this. You could add sections on: glyphs, macros, tips, professions, addons, optimal gear sets (chardev) and races. Some possibly being outside of the scope of this thread and deserving their own thread.

#7 Feralswipes

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 09:06 PM

if u want a viable arcane spec, look at mine

plz dont completely discredit a spec before u try it in arenas.

im at a 2.2k MMR with 1700 resil and like 6k spellpower, it works

and yes, almost every single team tries to kill me which makes me even more happy to see how ez we are going to win once i get gear


and as for the cloak enchants and gems being budgeted i disagree:

pure int gem = 40
pure pen gem = 50
int enchant = 50
pen enchant = 70

enchant int + gem pen = 50 int 50 pen = 100 total stats
gem int + enchant pen = 40 int 70 pen = 110 total stats

so u technically gain 10 stats? idk if thats right but it makes sense to me

pure crit gem = 40
crit enchant = 65

enchant crit + gem pen = 65 crit 50 pen = 115 total stats
gem crit + enchant pen = 40 crit 70 pen = 110 total stats

using this logic the crit cloak enchant is technically the best because u gain 5 stats, plz correct me if im wrong, i am just using the most basic logic i know and would like to know if i am incorrect


also when epic gems come out this whole dynamic will change and im guessing the crit enchant will be the best hands down, but i have no idea what kinda stats epic gems are going to have
+rep if i helped

#8 Opix

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 09:53 PM

Quote

enchant int + gem pen = 50 int 50 pen = 100 total stats
gem int + enchant pen = 40 int 70 pen = 110 total stats
You forgot to take into account socket bonuses (10 int on gloves/belt) and the fact that most people are using the chaotic meta, therefore needing to gem hit/spell pen/crit+hit.

Considering you are going for either 195 or 240 spell pen the only way the 70 spell pen enchant fits in is if you use it in combination with the blue spell pen neck/cloak.

Quote

using this logic the crit cloak enchant is technically the best because u gain 5 stats, plz correct me if im wrong, i am just using the most basic logic i know and would like to know if i am incorrect

The gem stat budget hardly ever matches the actual worth of the stat.

#9 Watlok

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 10:32 PM

If you go chaotic just put an spen gem in a blue socket and gem [crit|haste]/hit in yellows with veiled in blues.  Then use your 3 red gems in red/prismatic sockets.  Example armory

Spen/Hit > Int >> Sp=Crit > Haste=Mastery is how I see it.  Haste is definitely preferable to mastery right now.  The GCD times are killing me.

#10 affix

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 11:17 PM

Xxlegolasxxz said:

Why not? Heres a build with pretty easy to obtain gear even for a strict non-raider, that has over 25% chance to crit

http://chardev.org/?profile=10696
2500 resil isn't enough, IMO, I want 3200+ in full gear

'i'm not dying with X resil' isn't an acceptable answer, either - it isn't about dying, but how much of a burden you are on your healer's time and mana.  Going from 2200 to 3100 resil was the difference between not lasting between tide/plea cooldowns

#11 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 11:47 PM

Watlok said:

Haste is definitely preferable to mastery right now.  The GCD times are killing me.

ur not the only one :)

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#12 Xxlegolasxxz

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 03:40 AM

affix said:

2500 resil isn't enough, IMO, I want 3200+ in full gear

'i'm not dying with X resil' isn't an acceptable answer, either - it isn't about dying, but how much of a burden you are on your healer's time and mana.  Going from 2200 to 3100 resil was the difference between not lasting between tide/plea cooldowns

Haha okay, I have to disagree that you need to stack ridiculous amounts of resil. Mage survival isn't like a spriest or an ele shaman where you basically just have to tank it, though i'm sure you already know that. But its because of that, that resilience has always been less valued by a mage. If you died, or caused a large strain on your healers mana, its because you misused your blink, misused your trinket, didn't position yourself properly, mismanaged your DRs, or possibly because you decided that it wasn't important to stack offensive stats to land kills, thus prolonging the match

But i'll humor you, almost 3k resil, spell pen cap, hit cap, no PVE pieces, and 25% crit

http://chardev.org/?profile=10696

Hope you aren't stubborn enough to say "BUT ITS 2963 RESILIENCE, NOT 3200, 2% DAMAGE REDUCTION MASSIVE STRAIN ON MY HEALERS MANA"

Spoiler


#13 affix

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 03:57 AM

Xxlegolasxxz said:

Haha okay, I have to disagree that you need to stack ridiculous amounts of resil. Mage survival isn't like a spriest or an ele shaman where you basically just have to tank it, though i'm sure you already know that. But its because of that, that resilience has always been less valued by a mage. If you died, or caused a large strain on your healers mana, its because you misused your blink, misused your trinket, didn't position yourself properly, mismanaged your DRs, or possibly because you decided that it wasn't important to stack offensive stats to land kills, thus prolonging the match

But i'll humor you, almost 3k resil, spell pen cap, hit cap, no PVE pieces, and 25% crit

http://chardev.org/?profile=10696

Hope you aren't stubborn enough to say "BUT ITS 2963 RESILIENCE, NOT 3200, 2% DAMAGE REDUCTION MASSIVE STRAIN ON MY HEALERS MANA"

Spoiler
...yep that's pretty much my exact gearset, you realize you're responding to my post in this thread saying i'm going with the crit cloak enchant, and then you linked a chardev that picks up the crit cloak enchant?

#14 Xxlegolasxxz

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 04:03 AM

Where does it say that at all in this thread?

And of course its your gearset, its composed of entirely PVP gear, the only difference in my other chardev was 2 pieces. I just dont understand why you say getting 25% crit in full s9 gear isnt possible

#15 Dudestealth

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 04:22 AM

What do you all think of this gear setup:

chardev.org/?profile=11122

7177 sp, 2963 resil, hit capped, penetration soft-capped, 20.15% crit, and a nice amount of mastery.

The two trinkets would be amazing together.  Theralion's Mirror proc gives you roughly 30% more damage on shatters, and the volcano card not only gives you ~1800 sp, but also 2.75% crit.  The resil trinket with +sp on use could also be substituted for the volcano card if you prefer more resilience.

Edit: fixed errors, updated info, and updated link

#16 Opix

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:31 AM

Dudestealth said:

What do you all think of this gear setup:

chardev.org/?profile=9253

6964 sp, 2938 resil, hit capped, penetration soft-capped, 19.56% crit, and a nice amount of mastery.

The two trinkets would be amazing together.  Theralion's Mirror proc gives you roughly 30% more damage on shatters, and the volcano card not only gives you ~1800 sp, but also 2.75% crit.  The resil trinket with +sp on use could also be substituted for the volcano card if you prefer more resilience.

Blue bracers, no shoulder enchant and 50 crit instead of 50 int/65 crit on cloak. Apart from that, seems like a solid setup.

#17 Xessi

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:55 AM

A couple of basic macro's for new Mages

Basic Macro's


Summon Water Elemental + Pet Nova

#showtooltip Summon Water Elemental
/cast [nopet] Summon Water Elemental
/click PetActionButton5

Mouseover the target you want to decurse

/cast [target=mouseover] Remove Curse

Decurse yourself without losing your current target
/cast [target=player] Remove Curse

Normal frostbolt + petattack, but also cancels your Invis and Ice Block

/cast Frostbolt
/cancelaura Ice Block
/cancelaura Invisibility
/petattack

Prevents your Water Elemental from attacking your Poly

#show Polymorph
/petfollow
/cast Polymorph


Focus Macro's

Sets your target as a Focus target

/Focus

Following spells will be cast on your focus target using these macro's

/cast [target=Focus] Polymorph

/cast [target=Focus] Counterspell

/cast [target=Focus] Deep Freeze


Arena 1-3 Macro's

Posted Image

Counterspell

/stopcasting
/cast [target=arena1] Counterspell

/stopcasting
/cast [target=arena2] Counterspell

/stopcasting
/cast [target=arena3] Counterspell

Deep Freeze

/cast [target=arena1] Deep Freeze

/cast [target=arena2] Deep Freeze

/cast [target=arena3] Deep Freeze

Polymorph

/cast [target=arena1] Polymorph

/cast [target=arena2] Polymorph

/cast [target=arena3] Polymorph
Posted Image

#18 Watlok

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 10:06 AM

Macroing petattack to frost bolt is bad now that you can actually move your pet

#19 Tsubi

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 07:55 PM

Glyphs
Glyphs are now separated into Prime Glyphs, Major Glyphs and Minor Glyphs. You can have 3 glyphs in each category for each spec. The current popular ones include:

Frost

Primal
-Frostfire bolt: This one should be in every spec, it adds +15% damage and combined with the 4set bonus its 20% extra damage.

-Ice Lance (+5% damage to icelance): As of now, we spam ice quite a bit and even with casted shatters extra 5% is amazing.

-Frostbolt (+5% crit to frostbolt): This is pretty useful when our base crit is below 25-30% as our shatters aren't guaranteed to crit yet. Though even once you hit 25% base crit and get some space to cast a frostbolt a 30% crit spell is not shabby either.


-Mage Armor (+20% regeneration to mage armor): Use this if you tend to run oom or in a composition that requires longevity.

Major
-Evocation: +40% HP regened during evocation. Pretty useful in 2s, situationally useful in 3s. Especially useful if the comp you run doesn't have a healer.

-Ice barrier (+30% damage absorbed): This glyph is a shadow of it's glory days. Right now IB only absorbs around 9-12k damage so this glyph adds a melee swing worth of protection if that. Still better than some of the other glyphs though.


-Polymorph (Poly removes all DoTs from target): Useful for comps that switch targets or have partners that uses DoTs often (e.g. DK, warlocks, moonkins etc).


-Icy Veins (Removes snare when used): Situationlly useful depending on the comp you run. Can be very clutch when getting melee trained and when used with imp blink is a huge mobility glyph.  

Minor

-Slowfall: durrrr


To change glyphs, you'll need dust of disappearance available from inscription vendors.
Posted Image

#20 Vira

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:54 PM

Why Battlemaster's?




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