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Elemental Shaman PvP in Cata


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#1 Mageic

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:36 PM


Hi, I'm posting this here because I am unable to post on the beta
forums and hope someone here will be nice enough to repost it for me. :) Also I talk a lot about the bad things with ele shamans but there are still plenty of good things so don't think about rerolling just yet. I simply am stating some flaws I think need to be changed.



Ele shamans have had some interesting changes in cataclysm and I can see a lot of potential in the spec but it has some major flaws that should be changed.

Healing

First off I want to say that I understand the intent of the new healing system and I realize that we don't want to have hybrids with unending mana being able to keep up their teams. The nerfs however to elemental healing are overkill. Healing Surge will put me out of mana in seconds and really does not heal for all that much. In my current gear takes 8 heals to take me from 1 life to 100 % ( with spark of life, without MS ) and cost roughly about 60% of my mana pool. Greater Healing Wave heals for slightly more than Healing Surge and is slightly more mana efficient but due to its long cast time becomes very hard to use in pvp. Healing Wave our only mana efficient heal is nearly useless as an elemental shaman, the cast time is long and the heal is so small its unnoticeable. Healing as ele in arena is slimier to what Mana Shield was to frost mages in BC and wrath, you can use it if you are desperate but you will almost certainly oom yourself and could easily lose you the game simply due to mana. In comparison to other classes rogues, warriors, dks, moonkins can not only heal for more but also have no mana issues to deal with. Any of those classes can currently duel an elemental shaman and rotate lockouts to the point that the elemental shaman is forced into healing and and ooms him while they are consistently healing and nearly unkillable. The fact that rogues and warriors can out heal an ele shaman seems kind of crazy considering shaman is the hybrid class.

Possible changes to fix healing
( not asking for all of them just one of them )

-Lower the mana cost or increase the amount of healing Healing Surge does, at least one of the two is necessary or casting a heal in arena is more harmful than helpful.

-Create an elemental talent that encourages throwing heals here and there but to never spam it similar to the mage talent early frost. Example: Reduces the mana cost of your Healing Surge spell by 50 %. This effect becomes inactive for 30 seconds after use.

-Create an elemental talent that lowers the mana cost of self healing. Almost every class now have very effective self heals yet ele shamans will run out of mana if attempting to heal too much.

PS. I realize shadowpriests have some of the same problems


Mana

Mana seems to be the biggest flaw with the class as explained in the healing section but what im talking about here is mana efficiency without heals. Elemental shamans are currently the only caster dps that is able to run out of mana on a consistent basis. Without healing I will run out of mana in a 3v3 arena game after a few minutes, and once your oom it is very hard to regain mana ( they have no level 85 arena water on beta but lets assume the other team is able to keep me in combat ). I have tried many different spec / glyph / geming combination's to try to fix my mana issues and here is what I have found. Rolling thunder can effectively keep your mana high if you are being efficient with your spells( not using Chain Lightning and using Purge, Flame Shock much less) and are able to consistently free cast lightning bolts; however when you fight a team that either trains you down or keeps lock outs on you it becomes very hard to keep your mana up. Swapping to water shield when you are being trained helps slightly but this also somewhat ruins the damage purpose of lightning shield. Using a talent build without rolling thunder and consistently refreshing water shield keeps a consistency with mana between games where you are being trained and games where you are not but it still does not help enough. When an arena game has gone long enough the only mana you are really gaining is from thunderstorm ( roughly 7-7.5k mana every cd ) but when compared to shaman spells it really is not all that much. Shocks currently costs  3.8k mana and wind shear costs 2k mana and most totems around 1k, so the mana I am able to regain from thunerstorm is spent with simply your next flame shock wind shear and totem set.

I'm really worried that the common thing will be to attack the elemental shaman anytime you fight one simply because by attacking him it will not only shut down his damage but run him out of mana and they are fairly easy targets to attack. Mana drain is also a big problem because as I said before once you run out of mana it becomes really hard to regain any, so a warlock can effectively put an elemental shaman out of the match very quickly by spamming mana drain.

Possible changes to fix mana issues

- (Must) Lower the mana cost of shock/shear/totem spells.

- Buff the amount gained from thunderstorm.

- Rolling thunder feels like a bad attempt at redesigning how elemental shaman mana efficiency works. The talent needs to be buffed to where the shaman gains a significant amount of mana when getting chain lightning bolts off OR the talent needs something extra to help the shaman gain mana when being trained down. Example: When you deal damage with Lightning Bolt, Chain lightning or Lightning Shield while you Lightning Shield is active you have a 60 % chance to recover 4 % mana and generate an additional charge of lightning shield. ( However LS cannot proc another LS charge )

#2 cameronlol

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:50 AM

going to be lame if that is the case.

probably not a BG issue, although it would obviously be huge in arena.

really no dps class should go oom ever (unless they are doing something retarded).

they nerfed this obviously because of the 20min+ wizard cleave games, however I blame most of this on the infinite resto druid mana, rather than the heals spriest or ele shaman put out.
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#3 Rawri1

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 01:20 AM

Well I guess nerfing Elemental's healing is understandable. But running out of mana very fast and not having any way to properly regen is kinda lame :(

I just hope they don't say something like 'Well you can always drink in battlegrounds', them being the new focus and all.

#4 warpzz

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 01:57 AM

Going to have to agree with every point you made. Ele mana issues are by far the biggest concern we have in Cata. They should somehow make Convection baseline with another talent and make it apply to heals.

Healing seems to be a iffy topic for Ele's. They should just make a talent which increases the healing we do to OURSELVES the lower HP we are, something along the lines of 100% - Normal amount of healing , 75%= 10% extra healing, 50% 15% extra healing ect ect.

Mobility seems to be an issue on it's own, but I spose we will wait and see what happens :<

#5 Houserr

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 02:17 AM

GAME IS NOT Balanced around 1v1 SO no Real reason to heal yourself unless.....

#6 Rawri1

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 02:25 AM

Houserr said:

GAME IS NOT Balanced around 1v1 SO no Real reason to heal yourself unless.....

Main issue isn't really healing though :(

#7 medze

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 02:33 AM

I understand your pain seeing pure dps classes out heal hybrids with passive healing. But at the same time, I think hard casting heals as a hybrid should be kept to a minimum. Really, everyone else's self healing needs to be toned down (it already is) and that will hopefully even things out a bit.

Mana efficiency is another story and needs to be looked at. It seems to be hybrids mainly who are complaining about running oom. Ele, Boomkin, and to a lesser extent SPriest all struggle with longevity in the current level 85 arena setting. This is without using mana to heal at all.

#8 Fob

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 02:35 AM

:(

#9 jelqonyoface

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 06:30 AM

Didn't shadowpriest and ele shamans go oom pre cata anyway?  If you play a setup where the ele and spriest were consistently healing prob not going to win cause they will be oom the whole game, so cata is more of the same i guess?

#10 cameronlol

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 06:39 AM

its worse i imagine

since LK was 2-3 heals for full health using maybe 10% mana.
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#11 Ohyi

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 08:39 AM

full resto pvp gear @ 85 in beta as shaman, I still go OOM fast (13 healing surges)

#12 fuuga

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:41 PM

Lol, you'll go that oom that fast as resto in full resto gear. =P

HS/GHW simply aren't made to be spammed from any spec. I do agree that caster hybrid self-healing is probably sub-par thanks to that though since blizz probably doesn't realize that you won't be casting HW in an emergency.

Meeper said:

totems alone are more buttons than rogues use you fucking downie

inb4 delete

#13 lchigo

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:49 PM

cameronlol said:

going to be lame if that is the case.

probably not a BG issue, although it would obviously be huge in arena.

really no dps class should go oom ever (unless they are doing something retarded).

they nerfed this obviously because of the 20min+ wizard cleave games, however I blame most of this on the infinite resto druid mana, rather than the heals spriest or ele shaman put out.
i think elemental shaman healing was retarded.
look at lsd - even if someone got low, the elemental threw 2 lhw in 2 seconds and he was "full".
No other hybrids could do that...
I think hybrid dps classes should do healing as a sacrifice, i for an example - do sacrifice, spriest also do, ret.. well, lets say they do, shaman dont sacrifice anything just mana.

Its ok, i would add some consequences for every hybrid non-healer(like spriest/moonkin has) PLUS manacost like now.
I like that they dont want dps classes to spamheal, i always hated that :p

#14 Lolflay

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:53 PM

SP healing still remains in Cata though, nothing is critical regarding it

Quote

[13:49:14] Creed: u have 20min to find a healer, going for a jog
[13:49:53] Creed: nothing like running through the bush being chased by wild animals to get a proper workout
[13:50:01] Creed: you europeans and ur silly gyms

#15 Pythe

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 03:41 PM

lchigo said:

i think elemental shaman healing was retarded.
look at lsd - even if someone got low, the elemental threw 2 lhw in 2 seconds and he was "full".
No other hybrids could do that...
I think hybrid dps classes should do healing as a sacrifice, i for an example - do sacrifice, spriest also do, ret.. well, lets say they do, shaman dont sacrifice anything just mana.

Its ok, i would add some consequences for every hybrid non-healer(like spriest/moonkin has) PLUS manacost like now.
I like that they dont want dps classes to spamheal, i always hated that :p

It would be a sacrifice if the pattern was

No healing -> dont go oom
Healing -> go oom eventually

at the moment however, the trend is more like

No healing -> go oom, sooner rather than later depending on how much you <3 chain lightning
Healing -> Lol better drink right after pal cause you're SoL. Also SooM

The ability to offheal has always been a trademark as elemental, going right back to be very first arena season. Hell, in vanilla, most shaman's specced further into resto than ele. We've always been of the opinion that the time other classes would use spamming their spammable cc, we would use to offheal.

In short. We're hybrids through and through. This newly emerging trend breaks the mould. And we dont like it.

Not having a beta key though, I have a few questions. With healing surge ooming you, have you been paying attention to your clearcasting procs? Do you only healing surge with the buff up? From my perspective, it would be pretty balanced making 2 HS used with clearcasting charges be more than affordable for ele. If you HAVE been careful about this, then my suggestion would be to boost the mana reduction after critting. Maybe 75% cheaper heals after getting a crit

#16 Blowi

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 04:09 PM

I like that, add more things which will distinguish the good shamans from the bad ones.

#17 medze

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 04:15 PM

jelqonyoface said:

Didn't shadowpriest and ele shamans go oom pre cata anyway?  If you play a setup where the ele and spriest were consistently healing prob not going to win cause they will be oom the whole game, so cata is more of the same i guess?

Even without healing though, mana efficiency is pretty shit. This is from a shadow perspective and we're a lot better in the mana department than ele with Masochism (10% total mana whenever we shadow word death).

I think if we're not healing, our mana should be easy to manage and not significantly deplete. I do agree, however, that healing should quickly put is unto the resource negative (as it should with anyone)

#18 Pythe

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 04:19 PM

It's pretty simple. if we're healing a LOT in a game, our total healing will be maybe 20% of our damage done, if you are of the opinion that healing should oom a hybrid, then it should make you go oom 20% sooner. Not OH SHIT, I DID 20K HEALING, NOW I HAVE 0 MANA.

It's just not proportional to the power of our heals

#19 ROKMODE

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 04:34 PM

lchigo said:

i think elemental shaman healing was retarded.
look at lsd - even if someone got low, the elemental threw 2 lhw in 2 seconds and he was "full".
No other hybrids could do that...
I think hybrid dps classes should do healing as a sacrifice, i for an example - do sacrifice, spriest also do, ret.. well, lets say they do, shaman dont sacrifice anything just mana.

Its ok, i would add some consequences for every hybrid non-healer(like spriest/moonkin has) PLUS manacost like now.
I like that they dont want dps classes to spamheal, i always hated that :p

congratulations you have reached a new level of bias
2 lesser healing waves in s8 would heal about 8k (no ms) and have a 2.5+ cast time
Spriests do sacrifice survival when they heal but they also have 2 complete schools of magic so if they were turreting heals and got cs'ed they could still cast like 20 other spells
Moonkins could shapeshift if they got cs'ed while spamming nourish
Elemental Shamans could cast totems and cast lava burst
I am not saying elemental shaman heals were fine but they definitely had a sacrifice which was that elemental relies so heavily on their nature school. Boomkins could get csed on their heals and still shapeshift/kite, and spriests could use all their shadow spells.
Expect bias in posts because
Wotlk is the best thing since sliced bread

#20 Fob

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 05:44 PM

im disappointed :(
now ele shamans will just be target dummies with the occasional elemastery-x into 100k+ life pools




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