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#1 Breadcrumb

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 05:17 PM

Hey All,
So I'm thinkin of running TSG in Cata... the only problem is I can't decide on frost or unholy.  I was wondering if you guys could gimme some of your opinions on which would be better.  Also, do all DK's get necrotic strike or do only Unholy DK's get necrotic strike because if it is only Unholy I think I am leaning more in that direction.

Thanks

#2 Sethai

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 05:29 PM

Breadcrumb said:

do all DK's get necrotic strike or do only Unholy DK's get necrotic strike because if it is only Unholy I think I am leaning more in that direction.

All get it.
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#3 Shunyata

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 06:25 PM

Unholy will have better sustained damage output on medium to long term pressure.

Frost will have stronger short term burst windows.

I'd choose based on how you and the warrior play together.


If you like to win by putting out unhealable offensive pressure, unholy.

If you like to win by quick brutal swaps with heavy damage output in short windows, go frost.

Both will probably work it's just a matter of playstyle preference.
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#4 Emuu

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 06:32 PM

We will see how it will turn out, can people stop to make threads about this, nobody CAN'T possible know which spec will be better or what comp is the new FOTM. I hate theorycrafting brainacs.

In before lopez reporting in.

#5 Dieszel

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 07:08 PM

Breadcrumb said:

Hey All,
So I'm thinkin of running TSG in Cata... the only problem is I can't decide on frost or unholy.  I was wondering if you guys could gimme some of your opinions on which would be better.  Also, do all DK's get necrotic strike or do only Unholy DK's get necrotic strike because if it is only Unholy I think I am leaning more in that direction.

Thanks

Well the season is only over a month away so you better hurry up and get this unanswerable question answered asap!!!

#6 GLopez

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:02 PM

Shunyata said:

Unholy will have better sustained damage output on medium to long term pressure.

Frost will have stronger short term burst windows.

I'd choose based on how you and the warrior play together.


If you like to win by putting out unhealable offensive pressure, unholy.

If you like to win by quick brutal swaps with heavy damage output in short windows, go frost.

Both will probably work it's just a matter of playstyle preference.
I'm with this guy!

I wouldn't underestimate Frost's pressure or Unholy's burst, though. Unholy can have pretty decent burst, and Frost can have pretty decent pressure.

#7 Shunyata

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:47 PM

GLopez12 said:

I'm with this guy!

I wouldn't underestimate Frost's pressure or Unholy's burst, though. Unholy can have pretty decent burst, and Frost can have pretty decent pressure.

Yeah both specs definately have both, but frost is a bit stonger in short window burst pressure and unholy is a bit stronger in drawn out sustained pressure.

And of course a pet that's actually scaling properly with resilience is extremely valuable.

Frost feels like at 85 it will be in better shape than it was in 3.1. It's burst is strong but not as overpowered as it was pre 3.2 with sotvh, but it has more ranged damage and the dispel protection we always wanted through RI. Also chillblains actually works as a primary snare now with RI, HB, and the deletion of passive disease dispels.
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#8 GLopez

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:48 PM

Yeah, Frost will be good. I've always been really skeptical about Frost, as I think most people know by now, but seeing Howling Blast do decent damage in beta videos has made me a lot more optimistic.

It really will come down to playstyle preference and sometimes what comp the Death Knight is playing. For example, Frost will be better with a Mage, and Unholy will be better with a Warlock.

#9 Nayrsy

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:29 AM

If Unholy and Frost both have solid burst and sustained pressure, the argument more-so becomes based on survivability and utility. If you're playing TSG, your Warrior WILL be cleaving and thus there's a high chance of your Hungering Cold breaking (I know this can be avoided, but that's a pain in a comp like TSG). Unholy has AMZ which is critical for every player on TSG, not to mention using AMS offensively for coil spam / absorbing much more damage. The ghoul is the game breaker for me... focus leaping and focus gnaw are too amazing not to have in a comp that lacks CC like TSG, not to mention the extra physical cleave damage you gain from him. The gargoyle is also boss, not just for the obvious increase in pressure but there have been countless games that I have won, scoring a kill where I was CC'd but had my garg out, helping the Warrior finish the job. Unholy DoT spreading is very useful as well, for extra cleave pressure AND easier swaps. Also, lichborne healing is substantially higher as Unholy (sudden doom / morbidity / glyph). Unholy has too much utility to give up for 'comparable' pressure or burst, sorry to crush your dreams :(
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#10 GLopez

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:35 AM

The way you completely dismissed Hungering Cold is kind of weird to me.

Cleaves got nerfed, and telling your Warrior to not AOE during Hungering Cold wouldn't be very hard.

You also ignored the utility from Brittle Bones and Improved Icy Talons.

#11 Aldarsbane

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:05 AM

Yea cleaves got nerfed HARD in fact i cant ever see a warrior using any cleave moves outside of the occasional sweeping strikes especially since he no longer NEEDS to bladestorm to do burst damage as it was before, in fact warrior single target damage as ms or fury is fantastic and bladestorm actually gimps them, frost offers alot that unholy doesnt, one is a cc that must be trinketed, our warrior now has knockdown on a 45 second cooldown 5 second stun that we wont wanna gnaw put on dr anyway or even a 4 second intercept.

DG healer---Hungering Cold---Intim shout----Strangulate--- Kill dps
or DG healer hungering cold knockdown healer strangulate healer kill healer.

And best of all frost is no longer a one hit cinderglacier killing machine 2 shot spec it can actually do damage

#12 Nayrsy

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:13 AM

Warriors will still be using Sweeping Strikes / Bladestorm, this is more pressure in a situation where more than 1 target is around; also Bladestorm will be used out of roots and snares, likely critting and applying a bleed to someone nearby. Hungering Cold is good, I never said it wasn't, but it's really the only thing Frost has to offer over Unholy in a 3v3 setting. Sudden Doom with a full RP bar is just as retarded as Frost burst, especially with the constant high damage Unholy currently does. Hungering Cold = 9 second (dispellable CC) where Enraged Gnaw = 5 second (non-dispellable CC) which can also be used with a 2 second lock out from Enraged Leap - this is just comparing the BEST Frost talent with simple abilities from a pet. You already know all my other arguments based on damage, survivability, and utility...

Summary: Hungering Cold is not worth dropping the multiple perks of Unholy. I apologize, I did not make the patch notes.
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#13 Emuu

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:22 AM

uff.. please

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:52 AM

think the spec with the higher sustained dmg will be better.
i think in cata there will be 3 kinds of teams.

1. meleetrains that wont kill you, but dishing out high pressure for a very long time -> healersgoes oom = something dies
they wont be able to actually land kills until the healer is oom or some rare rng happens.

2. castercleaves that dont have high pressure over time, but much CC and heavy burst. they'll go for CC healer+burst DD to death.
they wont oom a healer and have to go for the kill.

3. healer/caster/melee that are a bit of both. are able to either oom the opponent healer(not so fast/good like meleetrain)or kill someone in a well timed CC chain (again not as strong as castercleave in that area)

if the speccs are somewhat the same like on 80 unholy will be going in category 1 while frost is more of category 3.
TSG would be 1, so unholy, but we'll see about that.

just my thoughts. could be completly wrong though ;)

#15 Covlol

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:00 AM

unholy will be great for categories 1 an 3
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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:05 AM

you think so cuz of shadowcleave right?
thats the only comp i could see unholy work in cat.3
frost will be so much better in comps like healer+mage/ele/moonkin+dk

#17 GLopez

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:13 AM

Nayrsy said:

Warriors will still be using Sweeping Strikes / Bladestorm, this is more pressure in a situation where more than 1 target is around; also Bladestorm will be used out of roots and snares, likely critting and applying a bleed to someone nearby. Hungering Cold is good, I never said it wasn't, but it's really the only thing Frost has to offer over Unholy in a 3v3 setting. Sudden Doom with a full RP bar is just as retarded as Frost burst, especially with the constant high damage Unholy currently does. Hungering Cold = 9 second (dispellable CC) where Enraged Gnaw = 5 second (non-dispellable CC) which can also be used with a 2 second lock out from Enraged Leap - this is just comparing the BEST Frost talent with simple abilities from a pet. You already know all my other arguments based on damage, survivability, and utility...

Summary: Hungering Cold is not worth dropping the multiple perks of Unholy. I apologize, I did not make the patch notes.
You acknowledge that AOE pressure is important, but then you completely ignore Howling Blast. That seems pretty nasty when coupled with Bladestorm and Sweeping Strikes.

And quintuple Death Coils are nowhere near as much burst as quadruple Frost Strikes. Not to mention that it is much, much easier to get up to quadruple Frost Strikes than it is to get to quintuple Death Coils.

It honestly seems like you're going off of an assumption that Frost didn't change much from 3.3.5 to 4.0.

By the way, I'm probably not playing TSG in Cataclysm, and I prefer Unholy, so you don't have to worry about my feelings. :)

#18 Covlol

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:14 AM

depends imo, unholy brings a lot to the table for all casters

defensively - AMZ is a great CD for all types (caster, melee, healer)

offensively - 5 sec gnaw an 2 sec stun (from DT'd ghoul) and high sustained pressure to go w/ caster burst.

i honestly think using frost or unholy in comps is going to be more about play style then anything else, of course some comps will work better as one or the other. but i don't see the difference to be too drastic.
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#19 GLopez

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:20 AM

I think you're right until we start talking about Mages and maybe Warlocks. Frost is much stronger than Unholy with Mages, and Unholy is probably better than Frost with Warlocks.

#20 Covlol

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:22 AM

i agree w/ that, an i think that is the most drastic argument of unholy or frost for x comp
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