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Cataclysm's Frost PvP Stat Priority.


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#1 Tempestlol

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 11:14 AM

Ok so I'm currently using a grand total of 13.52% haste on live (452 haste rating), and no extra talents to add to it. It's not hard to get casts off anymore so I've prioritizing this way:

Spell power > Mastery - Resil > Haste (= ?)/ > Crit

The spell power over mastery (reforging to mastery seems like you can get more than enough anyways; 540 on live atm) because the new ice lance coex makes it scale disgustingly well with spell power  (and gemming it gives you some crit seeing as how it's based off int now with the obvious bonus of mana), and resil currently because 5 second garrotes makes jack a very squishy boy (I find this incredibly op seeing as how I can kill 1200 resil mages in a garrote KS on my furi geared rogue which brings up the question...why haven't rogues gotten nerfed yet)?

Other than polymorphs (which are being reduced to 1.7 base cast time ...soonish?) I'm not seeing the benefit of haste in comparison to other stats seeing as how with my haste being THIS low I still have a 1.7 base cast time on frostbolt which would have taken me 1100 ish haste pre patch to get.


On the other hand haste can STILL provide first, and foremost:

Burst potential

-More frostbolts in a deep freeze (or lances)
-Faster Globals for spam lance, or setting up damage with FFB orb, or long range burst.

Better Utility

-Faster sheeps
-Faster dispels both decurse, and steal.

Major cons though are:
-Less mastery (probably)
-Less spell power obviously
-Less MANA and CRIT from int loss assuming you gem it


My idea for cataclysm is get around 14% haste (1792 haste seems somewhat easy to get considering the stats on the gear), and then prioritize as mentioned above. Just seems like itemizing haste would make you lose out on too much now despite it still being a good stat, and with shadow step rogues making a comeback I'm not sure how much PvE gear I will want to wear in s9 just for the haste.

Anyone have any different opinions + reasoning for different itemization style/ stat priority? I'd love to hear em.


Thanks once again for your time.
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#2 Xxlegolasxxz

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 11:47 AM

I like mastery>haste>resil=spellpower=crit

Mastery because obviously, we revolvve around our opponent being frozen, its our time of highest burst.

Haste because, I feel like mages are overlooking how powerful frostbolts are, and mages falling into the phase of "LOLOLOLO SPAM LANCE" are really just hurting themselves. Mages have always revolved around procs and lining them up with precision, it is in fact imo, the mark of an excellent mage when he reaches the point that is he is able to properly see what procs he has available, and can recognize the most opportune time to use them, this is even more true with FOF stacking up to 2 charges.

Just because ice lance does tons of damage, doesn't mean its the best spell to use. Frostbolt is still an important arsenal even though it does shitty damage, its what we use to generate FoF procs, FFB procs, etc etc, its not a good game plan to chuck ice lances until you run out of novas/freezes and hope you can overpower some shitty geared opponent. You really really need to bundle up a bunch of procs and use them to burst your opponent as quick as possible

Just as an example, me and this other mage (Eraseasaurus) were dueling some undergeared retard shadow priest, and he was simply getting stomped by the hybrids ability to top himself from 0%-100% with flash heal spam. This was for a few reasons, one he was getting all his CSs juked, and 2, he was literally relying on ice lance for all his burst and using it way too much, and not even trying to save up his procs. Heee tried blaming it on my superior gear, but a quick stat comparison showed he had better stats than me.

Anyway, thats just how i've adopted the playstyle, I dont bust a nut and mash ice lance whenever FoF lights up, I know its shiny and all but it really doesnt net you insane burst.

So yea, haste because it lets me belt out more frostbolts, which is more procs, which is more burst and damage than any ice lance spam could get me.

Resil nets a bit lower cause I was thinking about it, and even if I stacked resil to no end the most I could grab is about 80% reduction in damage, which would b einsane, but it didnt mean too much to me if I couldn't land kills ( not that stacking resil would gimp my damage too much, but I just didnt feel the need with how many outs mages have for avoiding damage )

SP and crit I rank lower just because I never really valued spell damage or crit, though maybe I would put crit above resil/sp just because of how shatter works.

Edit: as for your comment on rogues I don't quite see the point, any time a rogue opens on me I straight away frost nova them or rocket boot out of the garrote, or shattered barrier will proc and I just combine it with CSK

I personally dont find the 5s garrote to be much of a problem

#3 Tempestlol

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 07:00 PM

Xxlegolasxxz said:

I like mastery>haste>resil=spellpower=crit

Mastery because obviously, we revolvve around our opponent being frozen, its our time of highest burst.

Haste because, I feel like mages are overlooking how powerful frostbolts are, and mages falling into the phase of "LOLOLOLO SPAM LANCE" are really just hurting themselves. Mages have always revolved around procs and lining them up with precision, it is in fact imo, the mark of an excellent mage when he reaches the point that is he is able to properly see what procs he has available, and can recognize the most opportune time to use them, this is even more true with FOF stacking up to 2 charges.

Just because ice lance does tons of damage, doesn't mean its the best spell to use. Frostbolt is still an important arsenal even though it does shitty damage, its what we use to generate FoF procs, FFB procs, etc etc, its not a good game plan to chuck ice lances until you run out of novas/freezes and hope you can overpower some shitty geared opponent. You really really need to bundle up a bunch of procs and use them to burst your opponent as quick as possible

Just as an example, me and this other mage (Eraseasaurus) were dueling some undergeared retard shadow priest, and he was simply getting stomped by the hybrids ability to top himself from 0%-100% with flash heal spam. This was for a few reasons, one he was getting all his CSs juked, and 2, he was literally relying on ice lance for all his burst and using it way too much, and not even trying to save up his procs. Heee tried blaming it on my superior gear, but a quick stat comparison showed he had better stats than me.

Anyway, thats just how i've adopted the playstyle, I dont bust a nut and mash ice lance whenever FoF lights up, I know its shiny and all but it really doesnt net you insane burst.

So yea, haste because it lets me belt out more frostbolts, which is more procs, which is more burst and damage than any ice lance spam could get me.

Resil nets a bit lower cause I was thinking about it, and even if I stacked resil to no end the most I could grab is about 80% reduction in damage, which would b einsane, but it didnt mean too much to me if I couldn't land kills ( not that stacking resil would gimp my damage too much, but I just didnt feel the need with how many outs mages have for avoiding damage )

SP and crit I rank lower just because I never really valued spell damage or crit, though maybe I would put crit above resil/sp just because of how shatter works.

Edit: as for your comment on rogues I don't quite see the point, any time a rogue opens on me I straight away frost nova them or rocket boot out of the garrote, or shattered barrier will proc and I just combine it with CSK

I personally dont find the 5s garrote to be much of a problem

Just saying spell power scales better than mastery does, and it affects frostbolt pretty well too which I do use almost as much as I did pre patch, and only reason frostbolt does crappy damage is because of the resil buff which will only work at level 80 once you are 81+ the resil is exactly as much mitigation shown in the tool tip so frostbolt won't be bad anymore, but personally still think spell power mastery will be better for damage, seeing as how even though we DO use frostbolt, ice lance is a much bigger part of our damage than it used to be so I'm not really itemizing completely around it per say, but I am making it take a big part in the ...well itemizing.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you've brought some interesting points though so I might consider some more itemization options.


Oh, and as for the rogue comment it IS a problem when the rogue opens garrote without breaking sap then shivs, I can pet nova, but with spam vanish (aka double shadow step to and one sprint at the right time) I'm forced to block before he cloaks, then he can just use a cloak shadow dance sprint to kill me.

Granted I may have helped my friend learn a bit too much about how to beat mages 1 on 1 seeing as how I TOLD him exactly what to do to destroy us, but it still pisses me off >_>.

BG rogues aren't an issue even if they are rocking insane gear.
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#4 Pownmeisterz

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:10 AM

I thought that frost mage mastery scales twice as well as intellect in general(obviously they will increase and decrease depending on what the other stat is at.)

I don't think gearing around the sustained(non-frozen) will be effective because obviously it won't be difficult to setup that scenario, and because I don't think the designers would ever want a situation where people get blown up out of nowhere(like how DKs were surprised by their own damage in early s5).
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#5 Xxlegolasxxz

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:19 AM

Pownmeisterz said:

I thought that frost mage mastery scales twice as well as intellect in general(obviously they will increase and decrease depending on what the other stat is at.)

I don't think gearing around the sustained(non-frozen) will be effective because obviously it won't be difficult to setup that scenario, and because I don't think the designers would ever want a situation where people get blown up out of nowhere(like how DKs were surprised by their own damage in early s5).

ye ye boi

#6 Tempestlol

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:32 AM

Pownmeisterz said:

I thought that frost mage mastery scales twice as well as intellect in general(obviously they will increase and decrease depending on what the other stat is at.)

I don't think gearing around the sustained(non-frozen) will be effective because obviously it won't be difficult to setup that scenario, and because I don't think the designers would ever want a situation where people get blown up out of nowhere(like how DKs were surprised by their own damage in early s5).

I don't have any solid numbers to really back it up, but ice lance (with FoF or nova) crits for about average 500 more with my purified lunar dust on over my medallion of the alliance.

Long story short I'll gear mastery, but I won't gem it in all likely cases (assuming they make gems for it in cata).
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#7 Pownmeisterz

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 07:39 AM

Well just using character sheet, it's roughly 45.9 mastery rating for 1 point of mastery, and given how you only want damage while shattering(since non-frozen damage is pretty fucking shitty), it will be worth 2.5% damage.

I did some napkin math at pretty general numbers that I think we'll be at, for theory purposes. Base stats will be 0 mastery rating, 0 haste, and just for simplicity, the base crit rate will be 16.6% so that shatter crit rate will be about 50%. The average crit bonus damage on a frozen target dummy is:

Base- 191.25%
1% crit(equivalent to 3% because of shatter)- 195.225%
1 point of mastery(equivalent of 1% crit)- 195.075%
1.4% haste(equivalent of item budget)- 193.928% [191.25*(2/1.97238)]
Rough numbers, but crit seems to be favored until you get closer to the cap, master is significantly better than haste.

It's extremely rough math, but it shouldn't change that drastically. The average % damage gains are about 2% for crit/mastery, 1.4% for haste, and about 1.1% for intellect, and I'm pretty sure since those values are fairly far apart, that unless you go super heavy into 1 stat, their relationship will generally stay the same.
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#8 Archmage

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 03:16 PM

Well tbh don't look at the game now where u can have balance between stats. In start of season 9 things will be very different, low haste, low crit etc.
So my guess is crit will be a very good choice until u go 20%+, then mastery/haste.
Atm I play (selfbuffed) with 3800 sp 20% haste  25% crit and 32% mastery while having 1300 resilience. If I can keep this balance in season 9 I think mages will be great.

PS: I agree that spell power scales better now with icelance instead of mastery, but idk @ lvl 85, only char I played on beta was a premade without insignia.

#9 Xxlegolasxxz

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 04:18 PM

wat i only have like 3400 sp 22% haste 17% mastery and 20% crit and 1070 resil

how u get dem statzzz

#10 Redocz

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:25 PM

(85 talk)
you need crit for shatter, in lvl 85 pvp blues you have like 10-15% crit, so shatter is 30-45% -> thats realy low

in full gear i would say a hastened frobo(meaning with talent up) should be lowered to 1.00 with haste, then mastery for more damage on frozen targets
->
more icelance damage -> more shatter damage

crit should always have a minimum of 15% and max of 33.33% because shatter scales with crit as i already mentioned...

so imo crit around 15-33.33, haste max = (talent)hastened frobo at 1.00 and mastery as final stat for the big shatters. Gemming primary mastery, secondary int; if all other stats are capped

#11 Archmage

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:36 PM

Xxlegolasxxz said:

wat i only have like 3400 sp 22% haste 17% mastery and 20% crit and 1070 resil

how u get dem statzzz

I use full wrathful set + haste offset and gemmed red=20int yellow=10int+10 haste and blue=13penetration+10int. Reforged shoulders + ring for hit cap, reforged all other wrathful pieces from crit to mastery. I left haste as it is and i use 3% crit from talents too. The most imba shit is that engineering enchants stack with normal enchants even MindControl on head which also gives 45 stamina.

#12 Pownmeisterz

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:25 PM

For me, I'll be going 20-22% crit, and maxing out mastery as quick as I can. I remember people debating over haste vs. crit at 70, I always chose crit because the game revolved around weaving CC in between damage, and making sure that shatter had consistent damage was way more important.

I really hate the wotlk playstyle where mage's have become a frostbolt turret v2000 that can only be turned on by sheeping the other team, and will never turn on until that condition is met. It really undermined the concept of hard bursts on 21 sec intervals, where crits were less and less of an issue.
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#13 Interr

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 08:07 AM

Xxlegolasxxz said:

I like mastery>haste>resil=spellpower=crit

Mastery because obviously, we revolvve around our opponent being frozen, its our time of highest burst.

Haste because, I feel like mages are overlooking how powerful frostbolts are, and mages falling into the phase of "LOLOLOLO SPAM LANCE" are really just hurting themselves.

Agree with this. Although alot of mages would soon realise that in arenas they have to fish and hold on to procs to set up a timed burst. I actually like this new aspect of frost where FoF and deep freeze is more on-demand. But uncovered 2sec sheep + no arcane missiles + no frost warding makes the playstyle brain dead.

Anyway I'm going mastery > haste because I still like casting sheeps and fishing with FB (eventhough its alot less enjoyable now).

#14 GLopez

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:21 PM

Yeah. Just from one day of playing, I can tell that my burst is infinitely better if I hold off on it and spam Frostbolt. I think the mentality of spamming Ice Lance is going to crumble as soon as arenas come out.

And you can very easily cover sheeps with Freeze thanks to Improved Freeze.

Maybe it's because I haven't played my Mage since season 4, but I really like all the changes, even the Polymorph casting time change.

#15 laiik

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:52 PM

I dont know, but with Bloodlust and double Icy Veins we shouldnt be worried about haste?

#16 Pownmeisterz

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:55 PM

I highly doubt blizzard will let stats inflate as bad have as they have at 80. Right now, you can get a huge amount of mastery, cap crit, and almost enough haste to soft cap. I'm pretty sure in BiS gear towards the end of cataclysm will allow for 2 of those stats to get really high, with one of them(haste for me) close to nothing. Alternatively, you could gear towards a moderate amount in all three.
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#17 GLopez

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 11:06 PM

Blizzard already planned out the stats every tier of gear, and they said gear will never be as strong as it is today.

So, relative to health and whatnot, everyone will be weaker even in the last tier of lv. 85 gear.

#18 tafu

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:33 AM

Quote

And you can very easily cover sheeps with Freeze thanks to Improved Freeze.

What does gaining 2 charge of fof do for covering sheeps..?

I think you may be referring to piercing chill?

#19 Pownmeisterz

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 04:42 AM

tafu said:

What does gaining 2 charge of fof do for covering sheeps..?

I think you may be referring to piercing chill?

Fuck, I don't get how you got a rank 1 title, but what he is trying to say is, people used to save pet nova+DF to CC an off target along with r1 frostbolt+sheep on 3rd target.

With the lack of a r1 frostbolt, but gaining improved freeze, you'll be able to dispel fodder your sheep target with the pet nova, and DF immediately afterwards on 3rd target(won't have dispel protection, unless you're switching off that target who has magic debuffs). You'll also come out of this with 1 charge of FoF left over for a shatter on kill target.

I think it will take more skill overall, shattering a sheep sounds pretty cool. Start casting sheep on arenatarget2, mid-cast pet freeze that person, immediately follow up the sheep with a DF on arenatarget3, when GCD is up, immediately start casting into arenatarget1 for FB+IL shatter combo. How it will line up with the team will probably be, wait for the first stun to go on the kill target and then proceed to cast your CC combo on the 2 off-targets.

I think the top comp will probably be gnome rogue/NE mage/NE priest. The CC transitions will be incredibly hard to interrupt, even with a snare heavy team(rogue won't have to blow huge CDs/rely on defensive dispels to ShS.) The priest would be NE in the case where he can shadowmeld+mount to continue the CC chain with the rogue's blind. Mage would be NE to guarantee a sheep to start the CC chain.
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#20 Tweakz

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 05:47 AM

I'm playing Int > Mastery > Crit > Haste right now and enjoying it.

I've played 1300 haste most this season so its a nice change of pace.

Edit: I really hate poly cast times now, though. Everything else I'm fine with.




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