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Disturbing concerns about Holy Paladins


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#1 allana

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:18 PM

On the odd chance that a Blizzard representative actually reads this board as well, here's a repost of a thread I made on the cataclysm boards.


Greetings.

I'm Allana. That's been my main moniker in World of Warcraft since January 2007, which was when I first created this character. Before that I played primarily a priest, but I was simply very interested in how Paladins could heal in pvp (everyone was hellbent on being retribution, I saw a good oppertunity to go into PvP with a shield and heal like a boss). And so I did.

Now, when I started playing my paladin it was quite popular to go 100% crit rating in gems, enchants and gear choices. Why? Simple, illumination gave us back 100% of our mana when we got a crit heal. Wait, what did I say? Illumination?

Ah yes. The talent that holy paladins had had since the dawn of time (or at least, the start of talents) - it returned mana on critical heals. This made crit be a very interesting stat for paladins, and we've sworn by it ever since.

Then one day, it was deemed too powerful. Fair enough, it got reduced to 60% mana return - still an awesome talent, yet making crit slightly worse for us. No longer was any paladin stacking nothing but crit, most of them started stacking spellpower gems and spellpower gems with the suffix of crit, int or mp5.

Still, we got a lot of mana back when we got our crits which was excellent. This was one of the strong parts for us in PvP, for we were among the worst healers (paired with shamans) for everything but 5v5, but in there we shined mainly because we could wear so much raiding gear. A paladin with 300 resilience clad in full black temple gear wasn't an uncommon occurrence.

At any rate, Lich King came out and we skyrocketed to heroic levels, became massively overpowered and we got new crazy mana regeneration mechanics (Divine Plea) along with most paladins speccing 34 points into retribution to pick up judgement of the wise, we could not get out of mana in pvp. Ever. At this time, illumination was nerfed again, this time going to 30% mana returned. Fair enough, it's still a great talent.

Now fastforward through Lich King, divine plea's been nerfed a couple of times and now in the beta it gives a very low amount of mana, while still retaining the healing penalty. Effectively, it's still the only mana regeneration tool you really have to think before using (except maybe hymn of hope) since you'll heal for a lot less for 15 seconds. At the same time, it's been noted that we no longer have the talent Illumination.

So from 100% -> 60% -> 30% -> 0%. All right, but wait what's this. Blizzard stated that they wanted holy paladins to still value crit highly - that's why our mastery was supposed to increase critical heals. This idea was scrapped in favor of the new shield mechanic. I'm not sure how I feel about that at the moment, it's interesting at least and it will surely provide a lot of annoyance to people later on in the seasons as our mastery & spellpower go up. Right now, a shield absorbing 500 hp when a mage deals crits for 50-60k seems a bit unnecessary.

Now, I wouldn't be annoyed about the removal of illumination if it wasn't for one thing; Shamans still have it. Shamans got the equivalent version of illumination in either WOTLK or TBC, I think it was in WOTLK. They did have the same ability with their tier 1 set back in molten core, and the set bonus was so good that many guilds required shaman applicants to have 5/8 tier 1 because they were no longer raiding it. Exactly, ridiculous. Now, look at it this way, I'm not trying to take away an interesting talent from the shaman community, I'm only curious as to why their passive mana regeneration could remain while ours couldn't.

The same question can be applied to other healers, the druids will now proc replenishment when they use lifebloom and the same talent gives them a chance to regain a percentage of their maximum mana. Holy priests get a slightly larger amount of mana from spirit and discipline priests still have rapture.

As I said, I'm not here to bash other healers - I like playing all of them but my curiosity is simply as to why we're the only ones no longer able to talent any mana regeneration abilities. Is it all because we can cast Word of Glory?

Also: Switch places of Eternal Glory and Arbiter of the Light pretty please. This would allow us to go with 32/0/9 or 31/0/10 instead of the current more odd 32/2/7, which seems pointless. Thanks for reading folks!
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#2 Shamanizer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:24 PM

cos you can tank a shadowmourne warrior.

all other healers cant.

end of story.
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Vhell at MLG 2010 at Sodah vs tremor totem:

"Tremor totem is a totem that will pulse and break fears. Right when you drop it, it will break fears too. What we saw was Sodah targeting the tremor totem right from the start, he has a macro that will target the tremor totem..."


???

#3 Mightlol

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:29 PM

As holy paladin myself, i agree with most things you've wrotten. Although I've chosen to play with 100% spellpower gems (22k mana unbuffed, something like 150mp5), and therefore I have to worry about mana more than paladins running with 450 mp5 & 28k mana.

Actually I do believe that apart from holy paladins playing playing spellcleaves, Holy spec has become fair while still being very strong, and therefore I wonder why they changed so many things about holy pally in cataclysm.

By the way, whats the point in buffing Offensive dispel in cataclysm, while it has never been as strong as it is today ?

@ Shamanizer : No you can't if he plays properly. You may be able to do it if he doesnt play even half-decent and if he has none spamming off dispel on you.
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TSG shouldn't win against an equally skilled LSD but 99% of all LSDs are super retarded so it's quite easy to zerg the druid from start to finish.


#4 allana

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:49 PM

cos you can tank a shadowmourne warrior.

all other healers cant.

end of story.


But shadowmourne is a nonfactor in cataclysm, did you read my post at all or did you type this with your dick?

Also, we're hurt quite a lot by armor penetration after all, shadowmourne warriors are quite scary to us. A lone death knight, though, is a joke.


Holy pally QQ'ing.

#Ironic.Since.08


I'm not sure what your topic is referring to, I'm asking quite an honest question. Then again, it doesn't look like you even play the game yet troll the boards. Kudos to you, wise one?
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#5 Starcookie

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:58 PM

Mages don't crit 50-60k, no idea where you've seen that
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#6 allana

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 02:22 PM

Mages don't crit 50-60k, no idea where you've seen that




it might not hold the same way at 85, but right now it's looking fun :)
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#7 Shamanizer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 02:50 PM

But shadowmourne is a nonfactor in cataclysm, did you read my post at all or did you type this with your dick?

Also, we're hurt quite a lot by armor penetration after all, shadowmourne warriors are quite scary to us. A lone death knight, though, is a joke.




I'm not sure what your topic is referring to, I'm asking quite an honest question. Then again, it doesn't look like you even play the game yet troll the boards. Kudos to you, wise one?


ok im sorry, i did read it all though.

Shamans have the illumination thing, but still we only gain 495 mana per crit heal, our heal costs each, 700 and 1.2k mana.

Thats if we have waterhield on ourself. most times, we dont have it up cos a) we're getting spam purged to make us oom. or B) were getting trained and have to earth shield.

We got 2 sets of gear though, which will give us about 400 mp5 without watershield or mana spring, but we have MUCH MUCH less versatitility as a paladin.

Paladins in s7/s8 are propably the most defensive healing class of them all, but they also have some unique tools that none other healer has.

i know we're moving into cataclysm, but i wouldnt make assumptations already. healing across the board looks weak.

CC classes looks stronger than ever, and mana looks like its a real problem to keep up for everyone.

atm i got 3k mp5 while casting in full pve blues (i lvl 335 avr.) compared to my 80k mana pool, its very little compared to how many heals i have to throw out.

Healing surge 1.3 sec cast(lesser healing wave) costs 7k mana. heals 13k non crit, 20k crit.

Healing wave, 2.5 sec cast. costs 2k mana heals 6k crit 9-10k

Greater healing wave: 3 sec cast, costs 6k mana, heals 9k non crit, 15k crit.

i heard that for priests, its about the same. if someone is taking rapid damage you will go oom incredibly fast.

this is where i think paladins will shine the most, as they got many tools to keep theyr "friend" from taking all this damage. where as shamans + druids have to rely on standing there healing them up.
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Vhell at MLG 2010 at Sodah vs tremor totem:

"Tremor totem is a totem that will pulse and break fears. Right when you drop it, it will break fears too. What we saw was Sodah targeting the tremor totem right from the start, he has a macro that will target the tremor totem..."


???

#8 allana

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 02:55 PM

what exact tools are you talking about, hand of protection?
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#9 Felic

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:16 PM

cos you can tank a shadowmourne warrior.

all other healers cant.

end of story.


I heard druids are pretty good at tanking melee's.


No idea where I got that idea from though.
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:o i didnt c wat u did thar, could you explain for us dumb ppl?


#10 Polizei

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:17 PM

Nice and carefully written post and I agree with most of it. However I think you are not pressing hard the issue about crit being really shit stat for paladins, I would have also wanted to see some points on how paladins dont have pre-emptive heals (hots, shields etc) anymore.
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#11 Drake

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:25 PM

Healing surge 1.3 sec cast(lesser healing wave) costs 7k mana. heals 13k non crit, 20k crit.

Healing wave, 2.5 sec cast. costs 2k mana heals 6k crit 9-10k

Greater healing wave: 3 sec cast, costs 6k mana, heals 9k non crit, 15k crit.


So the fastest heal is also the most powerful one? And the slow heal is completely useless, as it costs 3 times the effective one yet heals for only 50% more? And the flash heal costs only 17% more yet heals for 50% more than the big one and has less than half the cast time?

Looks like they changed the concept of fast+heavy to fast and heavy+effective+useless. Doh.
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#12 sónny1296682930

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:58 PM

since u have been the easiest healer to play in s5-8 so now u need to learn how to drink, gl
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#13 rinnx

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:01 PM



it might not hold the same way at 85, but right now it's looking fun :)


full pve geared mage attacking a target dummy, lmfao.
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#14 allana

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:10 PM

since u have been the easiest healer to play in s5-8 so now u need to learn how to drink, gl


Yeah the standard dumbass mentality "you've been good so now you should be bad". Excellent point made, we should drink like all the other healers do constantly - maybe priests actually drink sometimes? I dunno, I haven't seen a resto druid chug water in a while, so I don't get where your point is coming from.

Then again, the biggest reason we don't drink now is that games are over in 2 minutes anyway :)
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#15 Darthgnoe

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:21 PM

full pve geared mage attacking a target dummy, lmfao.


I crit a druid for 45k with my full wrath mage, 0 pve gear

this is on level 80 current PTR
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#16 Shamanizer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:25 PM

So the fastest heal is also the most powerful one? And the slow heal is completely useless, as it costs 3 times the effective one yet heals for only 50% more? And the flash heal costs only 17% more yet heals for 50% more than the big one and has less than half the cast time?

Looks like they changed the concept of fast+heavy to fast and heavy+effective+useless. Doh.


im not saying they are bad in any way?

im not saying they are ineffecient or not?

im saying that all healers are changed, and you cant make assumtations for the future allready.
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Vhell at MLG 2010 at Sodah vs tremor totem:

"Tremor totem is a totem that will pulse and break fears. Right when you drop it, it will break fears too. What we saw was Sodah targeting the tremor totem right from the start, he has a macro that will target the tremor totem..."


???

#17 Aeral

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:34 PM

I crit a druid for 45k with my full wrath mage, 0 pve gear

this is on level 80 current PTR


arcane was op in begining of the s5 aswell, but got nerfed quite fast
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#18 Zaragoza

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:04 PM

IDK, but many games as RLS/RPS/Shatter (im the shaman) against holy pally/resto druids usually ended where i was near oom and the other healer had +70% or the paladin was near 100%

I don't really get where you're going but I don't think healers aren't suppose to go oom.
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#19 Jecks

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:10 PM

Holy pally QQ'ing.

#Ironic.Since.08


holy shit you're stupid
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#20 kannetixx

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:00 PM

I crit a druid for 45k with my full wrath mage, 0 pve gear

this is on level 80 current PTR


i heard dmg is tuned for level 80 not 85 .. nope thats not it :rolleyes:
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