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Specs and Rogue Trends on Beta, Backstab Buff


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#1

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 03:41 PM

The "in thing" at the moment to do for all the duel heroes on the beta is to pick up Quickening + Improved Recuperate. On a toon with 80K+ health, this spec allows recuperate to tick for upwards of 5k every three seconds. In conjunction with our other defensive cooldowns, the new hot Blizzard gave us makes us fairly difficult to kill 1v1 for anything other than a frost mage or another class that can really overwhelm us with burst.

The synergy between these two talents is so strong that I've seen many Assassination Rogues dropping our beloved Elusiveness in favor of imp recup.

For those of you who aren't on the beta, the vast majority of pvp minded players have opted to roll Horde. This allows them to trounce Tol'Barad scorched earth style, pick up full sets of blue gear and trinkets, and tell eachother how good they are at dueling in Durotar in between curb stomping the expectedly terrible Alliance teams they run into in Warsong (which happens to be really the only BG that ever pops outside of twin peaks).

The glaring problem with said "dueling spec" that will no doubt be popular in early cataclysm, is that you can't really pick up improved backstab while getting recuperate and quickening as subtlety.

Backstab is too good to ignore at the moment. For the first time I've been topping damage meters in Warsong Gulch, and doing so as SUB. I've also been forced to drop cheat death in favor of HaT (which once again gives us combo points for our own crits). The obvious synergy HaT has with Imp Backstab makes us a real threat burst wise even outside of Shadow Dance. It's an incredible feeling for those of us who have played Sub extensively in Wrath and are used to being simple stun and cc bots for our various teams when we aren't dancing.

I'm currently running this spec on the Beta.

http://cata.wowhead....cbfZZfGscdu0Rho

I could see solo minded Rogues dropping Quickening for a movement speed enchant + imp recuperate, as Imp Recup adds more to our hot than quickening does, and survivability minded Rogues dropping HaT for Cheat Death. It really does suck not having Cheat Death, but it's a worthwhile trade for the added dps and burst outside of Dance in my opinion.

That's all I've got from the Beta at the moment, regardless of what spec you choose to play our future is definitely looking bright.
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#2 Razorscythe

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 03:51 PM

good
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#3 Oliaxz

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 07:39 PM

The "in thing" at the moment to do for all the duel heroes on the beta is to pick up Quickening + Improved Recuperate. On a toon with 80K+ health, this spec allows recuperate to tick for upwards of 5k every three seconds. In conjunction with our other defensive cooldowns, the new hot Blizzard gave us makes us fairly difficult to kill 1v1 for anything other than a frost mage or another class that can really overwhelm us with burst.

The synergy between these two talents is so strong that I've seen many Assassination Rogues dropping our beloved Elusiveness in favor of imp recup.

For those of you who aren't on the beta, the vast majority of pvp minded players have opted to roll Horde. This allows them to trounce Tol'Barad scorched earth style, pick up full sets of blue gear and trinkets, and tell eachother how good they are at dueling in Durotar in between curb stomping the expectedly terrible Alliance teams they run into in Warsong (which happens to be really the only BG that ever pops outside of twin peaks).

The glaring problem with said "dueling spec" that will no doubt be popular in early cataclysm, is that you can't really pick up improved backstab while getting recuperate and quickening as subtlety.

Backstab is too good to ignore at the moment. For the first time I've been topping damage meters in Warsong Gulch, and doing so as SUB. I've also been forced to drop cheat death in favor of HaT (which once again gives us combo points for our own crits). The obvious synergy HaT has with Imp Backstab makes us a real threat burst wise even outside of Shadow Dance. It's an incredible feeling for those of us who have played Sub extensively in Wrath and are used to being simple stun and cc bots for our various teams when we aren't dancing.

I'm currently running this spec on the Beta.

http://cata.wowhead....cbfZZfGscdu0Rho

I could see solo minded Rogues dropping Quickening for a movement speed enchant + imp recuperate, as Imp Recup adds more to our hot than quickening does, and survivability minded Rogues dropping HaT for Cheat Death. It really does suck not having Cheat Death, but it's a worthwhile trade for the added dps and burst outside of Dance in my opinion.

That's all I've got from the Beta at the moment, regardless of what spec you choose to play our future is definitely looking bright.


nice input

yeah hat is probably too good to pass on as backstab, but even as hemo id put 1 pt in it for the 5% crit buff.

I also agree that improved recuperate is something that may not last in arena. The hot will be nice at the start of cata, but it will most likely be crap when people are used to it, and hp pool might not scale as well as dps after 1st season gear. The 6% less damage taken will always be good though.

Unless they reduce the cost of some talents, im not sure backstab spec is gonna be that good outside of 2s or prolly rated BG. But as you already pointed out, most rogue just like to jerk off after beating people in duel, so the most popular spec will probably be just the one that pwn the most in 1v1.
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#4 Kzrs

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 07:49 PM

Can you explain Combat Readiness? Is it basically:

You take 10/20/30/40/50% extra reduced dmg per hit, then when it caps out you get 30 more seconds of 50% dmg mitigation until it ends, or until somebody stops attacking you?
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#5 Oliaxz

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 07:58 PM

Can you explain Combat Readiness? Is it basically:

You take 10/20/30/40/50% extra reduced dmg per hit, then when it caps out you get 30 more seconds of 50% dmg mitigation until it ends, or until somebody stops attacking you?


Enter into a state of heightened awareness, deflecting enemy weapon strikes with increasing effectiveness. Successive attacks will deal 10% less damage per application, stacking 5 times. Lasts for 30 sec, but if 6 sec elapse without any incoming weapon strikes, this state will end.


I think it can only last up to 30s, but it needs to be refreshed at least once every 6s in order to do so. So every hit you receive during that 6s window will refresh the buff to 6s untill the total duration reach 30s and reduce any damage taken by 10%, stacking 5 times up to 50%. So people will have to choose between attacking you for 30s with a 50% damage reduction buff or stop attacking/CC you for 6s.
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#6 Elmolol

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:06 PM

I was watching a video of a rogue at 85 dueling. He was destroying everything and didn't even drop below 75% health. Is this true for you also?
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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:10 PM

I think it can only last up to 30s, but it needs to be refreshed at least once every 6s in order to do so. So every hit you receive during that 6s window will refresh the buff to 6s untill the total duration reach 30s and reduce any damage taken by 10%, stacking 5 times up to 50%. So people will have to choose between attacking you for 30s with a 50% damage reduction buff or stop attacking/CC you for 6s.


Yea, this is exactly right. It's an amazing ability in the right circumstances. When Rogues pop it on me I usually just bail for 6 seconds and let it wear off. Ive tanked several dps on me as the lame recup spec while CR was running. Definitely something to look forward to.

Really cool graphic too, btw
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#8 Olinim

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:14 PM

wtb link to the " spec to be " on beta for duels atm
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#9 Oliaxz

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:16 PM

btw id go with this spec for backstab spec
http://cata.wowhead....ucRho:zamsikmcz
imo energetic recovery is only worth it if you actually keep recuperate up, which you probably wont do if you dont have improved recuperate. Your spec also made me realise that losing serrated blade isnt a big deal when your auto attacks/wound procs arent really a big part of your damage and when crippling psn isnt your only way to snare people (waylay).

after looking at it again, i feel like it might be much better than the gay hemo sword club if i dont have too much trouble dealing with the must be behind your target thing. And yes good player usualy try to use frontral avoidance vs melee, especially when its a backstab rogue. That + latency issue could be a big deal to many rogues.
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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:38 PM

I was watching a video of a rogue at 85 dueling. He was destroying everything and didn't even drop below 75% health. Is this true for you also?


I've seen that video too.

I've been killed by a frost mage in 3 globals with imp recup running. DKS can also match our self healing pretty easily. I'll just say that the you're not going to destroy the best players of certain classes just because recuperate is so powerful.

I have beaten some fail players and certain classes without dipping low and not using many cd's but I don't think any cata videos I've seen so far are a great representation of how things will be when live players hit 85 in the top tier of pvp.
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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:42 PM

btw id go with this spec for backstab spec
http://cata.wowhead....ucRho:zamsikmcz
imo energetic recovery is only worth it if you actually keep recuperate up, which you probably wont do if you dont have improved recuperate. Your spec also made me realise that losing serrated blade isnt a big deal when your auto attacks/wound procs arent really a big part of your damage and when crippling psn isnt your only way to snare people (waylay).

after looking at it again, i feel like it might be much better than the gay hemo sword club if i dont have too much trouble dealing with the must be behind your target thing. And yes good player usualy try to use frontral avoidance vs melee, especially when its a backstab rogue. That + latency issue could be a big deal to many rogues.


I've tried specs without energetic recovery and they still feel pretty solid and your spec definitely covers all the bases. I'm planning on focusing primarily on rated bgs and I've got a really sick mage to play with as well so I definitely intend on taking full advantage of backstab.

When you're getting chain crits with BS and energetic recuperate is running the regen is really crazy. Also, if you have ER you can get an Ambush, Ambush, Eviscerate, Ambush, Ambush before your shadowdance ends, which is huge dmg if you can manage to stay on your target for that long.
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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:44 PM

wtb link to the " spec to be " on beta for duels atm


It's something a long these lines.

http://cata.wowhead....bbZbZfGccdzcRGo

You can tweak it to your personal preferences, but the main things that are important in duels are imp recuperate + Quickening for a massive self HoT, cheat death, and using hemo as your main attack for quick combo point generation in order to keep recuperate up between offensive finishers.
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#13 Ashe

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:48 PM

Why Cheat Death for duels tho?
If you're at 10% then it's more likely that you will lose anyway, so HAT would be a better choice, no?

8/2/31, I'm not a huge fan of Nightsalker after Imp. Gouge was moved to Timbaktu in the Combat tree, so I'd probably move that one point to Initiative or Cheat Death as well.
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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:56 PM

Why Cheat Death for duels tho?
If you're at 10% then it's more likely that you will lose anyway, so HAT would be a better choice, no?

8/2/31, I'm not a huge fan of Nightsalker after Imp. Gouge was moved to Timbaktu in the Combat tree, so I'd probably move that one point to Initiative or Cheat Death as well.


Yea, like I said, personal preference. The little extra time cheat death + battlemaster's can give you is definitely not bad in a duel setting though.
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#15 Kzrs

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 10:15 PM

Man Recup is godlike with those 2 talents, I really hope they don't nerf it.
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#16 Olinim

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 10:44 PM

so ppl are hemo spaming with keeping rupture of in cata or what?
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#17 Ashe

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 11:10 PM

so ppl are hemo spaming with keeping rupture of in cata or what?


I'm not sure what you mean by "rupture of in cata", but I'm going out on a limb and assume that you meant "off", to which I'd say no.

Even with the Hemo Glyph you probably still want to keep rupture up if you're not going in for the kill, since it's quite nice damage with all the buffs.

Blind Glyph lets you lol-blind as well, so there's no reason not to.
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#18 Kzrs

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 11:34 PM

Aren't Garrote and Prep glyphs a lock for Major as Hemo Sub? That leaves out in my opinion Kick, Blind, and Crippling Poison glyphs as possible thirds. Or do people not value crip and kick that much anymore?

Kick will become more valuable with less haste imo.
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#19 Olinim

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 01:26 AM

I'm not sure what you mean by "rupture of in cata", but I'm going out on a limb and assume that you meant "off", to which I'd say no.

Even with the Hemo Glyph you probably still want to keep rupture up if you're not going in for the kill, since it's quite nice damage with all the buffs.

Blind Glyph let's you lol-blind as well, so there's no reason not to.


i mean up* :P, i was just wondering what is the " rotation " for the non backstab spec shadowdance spec.
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#20 Chuckmitts

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 03:42 AM

cata.wowhead.com/talent#fzZbhbbZfGffbzcoho

Thoughts?
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