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The Future of Ret PvP


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#1 Vanguards

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 09:38 PM

http://forums.worldo...859116612&sid=1

My thread. Please take a look at it and post any constructive solutions you can think of!

EDIT: My thread below this message was deleted on the WOW forums for no given reasons. Though this thread obviously contains QQ (even though it's just what I feel are the problems for Ret) most of the thread were legit constructive possible solutions, especially after my initial post. Anyways, enough QQ about GC, here was my thread

___________________________________________________________________________________________


Before you read, I have to say this starts as a QQ thread about the problems of ret on PTR. But how do solutions come without first knowing the problems?

And another note, PTR is not level 85. But HONESTLY, how much are we getting that isn't already there at level 80?

Anyways...

I've recently copied my fully geared Gladiator Ret Paladin to the PTR.

As one of the highest rated Ret Pally in the world in arenas, and a frequent PvPer in all aspects (BGs, and World PvP) I have to say I'm very disappointed in the current ret changes.

Any ret paladin who've tried the PTR undoubtedly feels the same way, not only did ret pallies not get any stronger compared to other classes who's getting bloodlust, cleanses on healers that originally didn't, ret pallies are getting much MUCH WEAKER than what they are now.

Many people say arena isn't everything, that's true. But I believe Arena is a decent representation of what is somewhat balanced, and currently in season 8, how many high rated ret pallies do you see? How many ret pallies are in Gladiator Range? The answer is most likely a single digit number. Can you imagine what it will be like if the PTR is released to live?

Yes, level 80 is not level 85. But what are we getting that's not already there? Is 5 levels really going to change that much?

Sure, ret pallies are strong in battlegrounds on live, but does that give you the right to make them completely near useless? In the current state in PTR we are nothing but a damage dealer that does around half the damage of most classes. Sure we can kick now, but how often can we catch up to a caster without cleanse?

Ret Pallies Current Strength / Weaknesses:
STRENGTH:
- High Burst Damage / Overall Damage
- Cleanse
- Very Nice off-healing
- Good Team Utility (freedom, BOP etc)
WEAKNESSES:
- Easy to Die / TRAINED
- Easily Kited
- No Interrupts
- Extremely Weak when facing a target being Healed (Little CCs for healers, No MS, No Kick etc)
- As Said, Little CCs. (vs cyclones, fears, etc)

Any Ret Player can agree that Ret on live is slightly underpowered, but you can still make it work through specific comps, and insane PvE gear to take advantage of our "burst" (this isn't a good thing but we'll leave this argument elsewhere). So the situation isn't hopeless, however...

Ret on PTR Strengths / Weaknesses:
STRENGTH:
- Interrupt
- Holy Power allows more controlled Burst at Specific Times
- More Ranged Damage (Exorcism)
- 45% Judgement Speed
WEAKNESSES:
- Team Utility that is Nerfed (No Divine Sac and Sacred Shield)
- Even LOWER survivability (No SS, No Heals)
- Horrible Offheals (Selfless Healer is lol)
- CCs are same as always
- Damage is LOW to HORRIBLE
- Even Easier to Kite
- No Cleanse

This only covers a bit of it, I'm sure someone can think of much much more problems.

So as ret paladin myself how does these changes make me feel? It makes hope that the 4.0 is not coming anytime soon, and that Cataclysm will not be coming. Yes, I love the worgens, I love the new quests, I love the ability to fly in Cataclysm. Contrary to most arena PvPers, I actually like Rated BGs as well. BUT What is all that if my class is broken? What is all this nice stuff for if my favorite and main spec is useless? We don't bring much to the team table anymore, we don't survive well, we don't do much damage. So what are we there for? To interrupt when we somehow catch up?

Are we going to be good at Arenas? Get trained and die? NO
Are we going to be good at Bgs? Hey it's a ret, let's kite it all day /lol. NO
Are we going to be good at World PvPing? NO
Are we good at duels? Other than dueling healers? NO

So.. where in the PvP Scene do we fit?

I hope there will be some changes made from blizzard in the right direction.

Some simple solutions I think would help a lot:

- Just give us cleanse back (Don't spriests still have this? Is it really wrong for a dps to cleanse? IMO this adds a unique feeling to Ret, I'm sure many people find playing Ret without cleanse to be a bit awkward) Cleanse added a unique feel to Ret as a whole for many people including myself.
- We NEED some sort of talents to bring our damage back, especially our burst damage. I.E: When your holy power is at 3, your crusader strike is 100% crit. This allows you to choose between immediately using templar's verdict or just bursting with crusader strike first.
- A whole new ability that deals damage. Divine storm is near unusable in PvP, literally there are times when Ret has nothing to do at times other than watching their target. I don't find it awesome to use holy wrath and consecration on single targets like a mage or juke casting exorcism just to lol. Not to mention even most of those have a high cool-down.

Please post any other solutions you think would help, I'm sure anything constructive things would be fine.

Sincerely,
Vanguards
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#2 Apendix

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 09:39 PM

no legendaries in cata i guess?
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will be diamond soon if any1 wants to do some 1v1 or 2v2 or anything just message me Apendix 145.

#3 Kadryelx

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:14 PM

no legendaries in cata i guess?


you're fucking dumb retard, stop freaking hating on him because he has a damn shadowmourne... I'm 100% sure he would be around the same rating WITHOUT it OK?
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#4 Reoz

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:15 PM

you're fucking dumb retard, stop freaking hating on him because he has a damn shadowmourne... I'm 100% sure he would be around the same rating WITHOUT it OK?


Not sure if serious.
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#5 Housington

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:19 PM

you're fucking dumb retard

.

rest was bullshi
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#6 Kadryelx

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:24 PM

Not sure if serious.


why would I not be serious? I've played on the TR with Vanguards and I can tell you the shadowmourne isn't everything. I see shadowmourne a bit everywhere and most people I see with it fail at 2500ish and I'll gladly farm them down.

on topic: Let's hope blizzard see that post /crossfinger
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#7 Bmth

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:42 PM

i cant post links yet, but go on wcm and watch the ret vs pet or whatever it was called. guy was gettin bit for like 20k

if thats legitimately what its like on beta then i dont see anyone playing ret, and alot of people playing BM
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#8 insanity123

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:45 PM

you're fucking dumb retard, stop freaking hating on him because he has a damn shadowmourne... I'm 100% sure he would be around the same rating WITHOUT it OK?


Can't expect constructive posts from someone with a taylor swift signature.
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#9 Seekay

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:45 PM

Everything in that thread is true, the points you brought up and the solutions Polemeo mentioned would really help the spec in Cata.
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#10 zalae

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:45 PM

news flash they haven't attempted to balance #s for beta yet, so that's quite meaningless
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#11 Kadryelx

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:47 PM

Can't expect constructive posts from someone with a taylor swift signature.


I was only saying that beause everyone flames him because he has Shadowmourne, but you take it the way you want heh, just said my opinion.
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#12 Xonkk

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:49 PM

yo i crit some guy for like 18k with templars verdict in wsg, good times

not being able to cleanse is going to suck
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#13 Kanlis

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:52 PM

apparently the difference in the 5 lvls from 80 to 85 is a lot, if you decided to read the most recently posted threads.
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#14 Seekay

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:53 PM

yo i crit some guy for like 18k with templars verdict in wsg, good times

not being able to cleanse is going to suck


I don't think it's that damage isn't there, it's just that we're going to get kited even worse than now since classes got new instants and new ways to keep people away from them.

The interrupt is nice but it's not hard to fake a ret who will only be in melee range for such a limited time..

I mean there's some solid ideas in that thread and I think blizzard needs to look into our mobility issue.
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#15 Xonkk

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:55 PM

I don't think it's that damage isn't there, it's just that we're going to get kited even worse than now since classes got new instants and new ways to keep people away from them.

The interrupt is nice but it's not hard to fake a ret who will only be in melee range for such a limited time..

I mean there's some solid ideas in that thread and I think blizzard needs to look into our mobility issue.


yea i hope they do address that, i also found the speed boost was neat but also pretty meh at the same time.
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#16 Seekay

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:57 PM

yea i hope they do address that, i also found the speed boost was neat but also pretty meh at the same time.


Same... if we're snared and we get the speed boost, they're still *walking* faster than us :(
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#17 medze

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:58 PM

news flash they haven't attempted to balance #s for beta yet, so that's quite meaningless


apparently the difference in the 5 lvls from 80 to 85 is a lot, if you decided to read the most recently posted threads.


this fixes our mobility problems how?
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#18 Kadryelx

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:59 PM

level 85 won't fix most of the problems listed in that thread.
they can and should fix it on the PTR
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#19 Avengelyne

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:17 PM

Ret looks stupid atm. Good thing betas are betas and the ptr is a ptr
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#20 Hetfield

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:54 PM

news flash they haven't attempted to balance #s for beta yet, so that's quite meaningless


It's not sheer dmg #s that make rets terrible; it's their lack of survivability, mobility, and utility that make them suck. Hell ret probably has the highest dmg output of any spec in the game in pvp right now yet they're still one of the least represented specs in high rated arena. I mean there's only 1 RET paladin in glad range on my BG and Ruin is the 2nd or 3rd largest US BG... ><

And all of these problems are only getting worse in cata: taking away sacred shield, lowering bubble duration, removing cleanse, removing flash of light from art of war, removing stun-removing freedoms...

There needs to be some serious rethinking done on the Cataclysm ret changes. All blizzard is doing is making a bad spec even worse.
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