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#201 Lutheus

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 02:14 PM

Just because the spells are slightly different, ( and I do mean slightly, demon armor is the mages ice armor, used when getting completely shit on or about to be, fel armor and mage armor both serve a purpose in playing offensively ) doesn't change anything about their gameplay mechanics. To say warlock don't control or set up damage ( succubus comes to mind here, if you want to argue that, then felhunters are excellent for controlling caster teams by stopping their CC and shutting down their damage, they're also amazing for offensive play when used to double spell lock healers upon going for kill attempts )

Well our argument goes as this: you point out the similarities, I point out the differences. It will not end and the argument is about as pointless as it gets, so lets just agree to disagree.


Lileith, while your post is too long to quote, and I couldn't easily find bits to snip out, it was a very nice argument and I find myself agreeing with you over lots of the points. I think you are somewhat correct in that a damage reduction would be an incorrect direction to take for the mage.

There were some holes in your logic though, you presented an either or scenario for mage balance where it is either, "be CC'd 50% of the time and have ridiculous burst abilities" or it is "be CC'd 20% of the time and have more consistent damage". While under those circumstances it would always be desirable to go for the latter, things are not always so clear cut.

To elaborate further, mages have a lot of the supplementary tools to make a kill- deep freeze, counterspell. In Cataclysm they will also have the improved sheep which looks like it could be important in engineering kills. To the opponents team, shutting down the CC is just as important as shutting down the damage, this makes the mage very dangerous in that regard. To summarise, there is much more to a classes effectiveness than bare damage.

On the topic of damage, I hope mages will have damage very similar to that of other casters. With the changes to resilience (no longer reducing crit % chance) and to shatter, hitting into a deep frozen target will be almost guaranteed crits, which is comparable to the chaos bolt/ lava burst. While I hate those abilities and personally think the reliable burst of shatter is far easier to balance (compared to CB/ LB which if everything crits can wotlk people).

Damage is also supposed to go down relative to health bars in Cata, this will reduce the chance of the aforementioned abilities to gib people, and lessen there effectiveness closer to simply the damage they provide. In this situation it closes the gap in "dangerousness" between an un-CC'd mage and an un-CC'd caster, lessening the need for mage armour.

With the introduction of time-warp, not being able to effectively CC the mage will be very penalising for the opposite team and will probably present a plethora of balance problems. Since we are familiar Blizzards approach to this, they may just as easily may tackle mage burst and damage (hurting mages a lot outside time-warp), as they would tackle the source of that particular problem, mage armour.


I have said this already, so it is dredging up old arguments:rolleyes:, but I said that mages already do have lots of ways to avoid and remove CC. All healers will have a magic dispel as well which will lessen the overall impact, in a sense mages wont be so reliant on running with a priest.


My last point is that mage armour's initial conception seemed (to the community at least, better us not knowing Blizzard's intentions) to be as mages defence against dots! It was only this expansion that it was implemented, and if people are changing their tune about it where the same balance rules apply as to when it was implemented then it suggests that it was not doing its job properly. Mages weren't especially affected by CC in TBC and I doubt it would become too much of an issue in Cataclysm with MA changed. If CC does become an issue then it would be better in exploring solutions in other ways than simply providing a passive ability that affects every CC. The underlying problem is that there is no counter to mage armour. It will always be there and there is nothing the opposing team can do about it other than ignoring the mage (which is pretty appalling balance design).

I really liked your argument though!
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#202 Lieto

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 02:19 PM

Improved polymorph is a 3 sec stun that does not share DR with other stuns. Also: Sheep, NUKE NUKE NUKE, Sheep, NUKE NUKE NUKE, sheep, NUKE NUKE NUKE, Deep freeze

... BUM -200k delayed damage strikes back.
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#203 Reesezpiecez

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 02:27 PM

Well our argument goes as this: you point out the similarities, I point out the differences. It will not end and the argument is about as pointless as it gets, so lets just agree to disagree.



Actually it was, you implied that the classes were WILDLY different, I told you the similarities, of those similarities you tried to point out differences, which I subsequently disproved and showed that the so-called differences don't actually exist. All in reference to their gameplay mechanics of course

But anyway it just seems like you're fishing for an arguement because you're bored or whatnot, I doubt you even play a mage so I don't evne know why you're posting here so intently.
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#204 Lileith

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 04:02 PM

I'm not convinced that Time warp / Bloodlust are going to stay usable in arena / rated bg. I would hate having my damage balanced around the damage capacity of 40 seconds every 10 minutes.

It would also lead to very weird behavior of people comitting suicide (suicide rush or cliff jump) just to get ride of sated debuff. Note that this is happening already sometimes in pve but it's just a gain of time, in rated bg suiciding every 5 minutes would yield 100% increased uptime on time warp. And it gets even more stupid when you increase the number of shaman/mage avaiable.

Regarding offensive CC tools such as Deepfreeze or Counterspell I agree that currently you do not need high unCC'ed uptime to make use of those. Assuming your partner manage, alone, to pressure the target enough a well timed counterspell on the healer can be enough to allow your partner to kill something by himself even if you are CC'ed 95% of the time.

It can be the case nowday, especially when a mage is trained very hard that only a couple icelances in a deepfreeze followed by a blank counterspell can score a kill. Because a dps alone can easily take 100% hp in 10 seconds.

But I highly doubt this will be the case when the focused target has 4times the actual hp.

If blizzard successfully manage to make us fight with non-binary hp pools, scoring a kill will probably takes multiple well timed interupts and stun and constant damage pressure over the whole period.
To achieve this they must make sure that damage from two dps is required to outdamage a healer. And one counterspell at the right time won't be enough.

Mage and warlock both have a way to prevent too long magic CC on themself. Warlock vs Warlock , Warlock vs Mage are pretty much the same regarding cross CC efficiency. And that's current stat of the game, with winterchill beeing 5 stacks, and magic, and frostbolt rank1 beeing avaiable to the mage.

All this beeing gone in Cataclysm I expect the fear uptime of the warlock to be a lot higher than the sheep uptime in a Warlock Mage CC contest. And that's not counting on the curse of tong the Mage must cleanse at the end of each fear.

Overall I do not think it's the appropriate time to discuss about precise balance. The mage class need something to fight other magic caster, that's a fact, and currently Mage Armor does the job. Removing Mage Armor and introducing a completly new mechanism may end up improving the situation but that's also taking a risk to mess things up totally.
There are plenty of things that do not work in the game, messing with one of the few things that are actually currently ok does not seems like a good idea.
Anyway if during the pvp beta balance test they see mage dominating other magic caster more than they should they can easily reduce the mage armor efficiency by 5/10/15% whatever. Changing a number is easy.

I agree, and I think most mages too, is that the resistance mechanism from Mage Armor and Magic Absorbtion should be replaced. It actually benefit other classes just as much as the mage as people actually nerf their damage against everyone by gemming/enchanting spell penetration.
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#205 Lutheus

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 04:51 PM

Mage and warlock both have a way to prevent too long magic CC on themself. Warlock vs Warlock , Warlock vs Mage are pretty much the same regarding cross CC efficiency. And that's current stat of the game, with winterchill beeing 5 stacks, and magic, and frostbolt rank1 beeing avaiable to the mage.

All this beeing gone in Cataclysm I expect the fear uptime of the warlock to be a lot higher than the sheep uptime in a Warlock Mage CC contest. And that's not counting on the curse of tong the Mage must cleanse at the end of each fear.

Overall I do not think it's the appropriate time to discuss about precise balance. The mage class need something to fight other magic caster, that's a fact, and currently Mage Armor does the job. Removing Mage Armor and introducing a completly new mechanism may end up improving the situation but that's also taking a risk to mess things up totally.
There are plenty of things that do not work in the game, messing with one of the few things that are actually currently ok does not seems like a good idea.
Anyway if during the pvp beta balance test they see mage dominating other magic caster more than they should they can easily reduce the mage armor efficiency by 5/10/15% whatever. Changing a number is easy.


Yes I do agree a lot with what you say (and the magic resistance part goes without saying ;)).

On the topic of warlock v mage CC, with winters chill supposedly becoming physical and R1 frostbolt going then warlock CC would take over in a direct "CC battle".

What if fear was changed to break from absorbed damage as well as normal damage though, it would stop the warlock being able to channel any damage into the mage without breaking fear and this includes throwaway corruptions. Bearing in mind that polymorph has a much longer range and that fear can be stopped in a plethora of other ways (including team mates) would you think it would be overpowered in an arena environment? -or would mages need something extra? - indeed do they, other classes (ignoring mage, warriors and shaman) seem to do OK against warlocks so perhaps it would be appropriate to at least experiment without mage armour. edit > and that polymorph is on a different spell school to mage damage which makes it a lot less risky to cast.

Ug that last paragraph went on a bit, apologies for the appalling phrasing lol.
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#206 Kzrs

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 07:45 PM

Hey guys just a quick question now with Curtain of Frost being there, I don't have time to look through the entire thread and it wasn't on the first page but, do Mages still have Wall of Fog or was that cut?
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#207 nim

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 08:06 PM

Its the same spell, they just renamed it.
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#208 Lileith

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 08:07 PM

Wall of fog = Curtain of Frost, they just changed the name.
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#209 Nennx

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 08:14 PM

why is this warlock STILL posting in this thread?????
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#210 nim

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 08:20 PM

Because people keep responding to him.
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