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#1 Koshchei

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 06:33 PM

Wanted to understand about this.

Loads of people drop Lethality as they consider it useless but I still see a lot of Rogues still using Relentless Earthseige Diamond. Is something the like WG 17 crit -snare and root meta a better choice, even if it's crit over agi? The WG meta has slightly better requirements as well(only requiring one blue) as well. I tried it and as far as I can tell it does stack with Fleet Footed

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how can you expect to survive on the quidditch field with only 820 resilience?

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#2 clusky

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:03 AM

there's a better meta than the WG one, it has 21 crit rating rather than 17 (enigmatic skyflare diamond I think)

It's mainly down to personal preference tbh, Some like the extra attack power and crit damage from relentless, some like the reduced snare from enigmatic.  

And yes it does stack with fleetfooted

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#3 Zomglol

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:16 AM

i personally use the enigmatic skyflare on my rogue over the relentless earthsiege, people would argue that 3% crit damage could actually be gamebreaking (1hp survives fml) but i think the 10% less snare is pretty amazing considering it stacks with fleet footed, making it like 40%? which is almost halving slows and roots on you

#4 Supastarpowa

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:33 AM

It most likely stacks multiplicatively, I know the stun one does for sure.  37% snare reduction prolly.

#5 hid

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 04:10 AM

Lethality only affects (non-stealth) combo point generating attacks, while RED affects everything, including white attacks and spell crits(poisons). The RED bonus is also calculated in a slightly different way compared to lethality, causing it to "double-dip" from stuff like murder and slaughter from the shadows.

Some quick math based on my gear and subt spec, the RED (only the 3% critdmg part, not the agi) is slightly more than a 2% overall dps increase for me when attacking a 1.1k resil target. (I might add that it's a 3% overall damage increase on ambush, because of the high critrate).

(Before someone complains about my math, I've written a simple little tool to calculate damage in a way very similar to DrDamage(even borrowed a few calculations from that code, and compared my results to the output of this addon - and they match.).

Hope this helps.

#6 Zoephobia

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 01:13 PM

personally I fiend 42ap and stun reduce better but w/e

#7 Lieto

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 02:17 PM

3% dmg on crits meta = 1% damage increase overall. Its good. Why? — because damage is gud.
No one force you to use it though, go snare reduction or whatever you feel right for you.
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#8 StaN

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 02:39 PM

Lieto said:

3% dmg on crits meta = 1% damage increase overall. Its good. Why? — because damage is gud.
No one force you to use it though, go snare reduction or whatever you feel right for you.

You could also argue that less time spent snared = more time on your target = more damage.
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#9 Dracula

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 02:48 PM

Koshchei said:

Wanted to understand about this.

Loads of people drop Lethality as they consider it useless but I still see a lot of Rogues still using Relentless Earthseige Diamond. Is something the like WG 17 crit -snare and root meta a better choice, even if it's crit over agi? The WG meta has slightly better requirements as well(only requiring one blue) as well. I tried it and as far as I can tell it does stack with Fleet Footed

What's the word?


It's kind of funny, because 9/10 top korean rogues take 5/5 lethality and 5/5 poisons and don't take FA/DN/FW. I seen one who took 4/4 lethal and 4/4 improved poisons and 3/3 FA that's it.

#10 kkambanite

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 02:55 PM

mutilate with 2x 1.8 + 5/5 lethality + some arp is quiet good i would say
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#11 Magus

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 03:06 PM

rng spell reflect meta yaaaaarrrr

#12 Dracula

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 03:22 PM

kkambanite said:

mutilate with 2x 1.8 + 5/5 lethality + some arp is quiet good i would say

The korean rogues tend to run with around 30-33% ARP with 5300-5350ish AP and serrated blades 5/5 lethal and poisons.


It must be some what decent considering  9/10 rogues take it in Korea including both rogues on oranges arena team. Another interesting note is it's not uncommon to see korean teams when I was looking at them with 150-200 games a week and 2k+ games played on team lo.

#13 Koshchei

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 04:29 PM

If you stack ArP, it's cause you want higher Mutilates(mainly), therefore Lethality makes sense cause it's buffing them (but not envenom, which is what most western rogues seem to build around with stacked AP and a bit of haste on their gear)
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how can you expect to survive on the quidditch field with only 820 resilience?

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#14 Dracula

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:36 PM

Koshchei said:

If you stack ArP, it's cause you want higher Mutilates(mainly), therefore Lethality makes sense cause it's buffing them (but not envenom, which is what most western rogues seem to build around with stacked AP and a bit of haste on their gear)

They're env specd and have the same AP or more then western rogues. The difference is a little less resil and no haste gear only ARP statted gear with DBW.

#15 Lieto

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 07:04 PM

would be nice to see some testing on dummy.
Assuming around 45% mutilate crit after resilience i would say lethality is 15% pure damage increase for 45% of your mutilates which is 6.5% mutilate damage increase and around 3% damage increase overall for 5 talent pts.. Still kinda sht imho.

I would assume that having 2 in DW doesnt really make your mutilates scale that much.
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#16 hid

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 03:06 AM

Lieto said:

3% dmg on crits meta = 1% damage increase overall. Its good. Why? — because damage is gud.
No one force you to use it though, go snare reduction or whatever you feel right for you.

Just 2 posts above yours I wrote a different number and at least backed it up with sources on how I did these calculations, how come you just join in here a bit later stating a different number and not even saying anything about what you disagree with about what I wrote? Or maybe you just missed my post? Seems a bit strange to me, that's all. :P

#17 hid

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 03:12 AM

Lieto said:

would be nice to see some testing on dummy.
Assuming around 45% mutilate crit after resilience i would say lethality is 15% pure damage increase for 45% of your mutilates which is 6.5% mutilate damage increase and around 3% damage increase overall for 5 talent pts.. Still kinda sht imho.

I would assume that having 2 in DW doesnt really make your mutilates scale that much.

No, it wouldn't be a "15% pure damage increase" (overall) because of the reduced damage on the actual critical strikes because of resilience, so (depending on how high target resil is) it would be more like a 4-5% overall mut damage increase, which then later would translate into a 1.5%-ish overall damage increase assuming that mutilate is about 30% of your total damage, which is probably a bit high, but either way.

The one thing you were right about is the part about it being pretty shitty, since that translates into lethal being about a 0.3% damage increase per talent point.

#18 Dracula

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 05:48 AM

hid said:

No, it wouldn't be a "15% pure damage increase" (overall) because of the reduced damage on the actual critical strikes because of resilience, so (depending on how high target resil is) it would be more like a 4-5% overall mut damage increase, which then later would translate into a 1.5%-ish overall damage increase assuming that mutilate is about 30% of your total damage, which is probably a bit high, but either way.

The one thing you were right about is the part about it being pretty shitty, since that translates into lethal being about a 0.3% damage increase per talent point.

Take this for example, your playing RMP and you open on something. You muti 2x and then env, and both mutis crit.

The damage you gained on the mutis FAR out weighs anything you would gain from FA/FW on the short seconds of the openers anyways. The same goes for swaps...

Seems totally reasonable to run with 5/5 lethal and poisons(to stack faster on swaps and openers) running with 5300 AP and 39% passive ARP with talents and items.

You have to consider in RMP esp when koreans play it it's rare for them to be on a target long enough to get use out of FA.

#19 Lieto

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:54 AM

Quote

Just 2 posts above yours I wrote a different number and at least backed it up with sources on how I did these calculations, how come you just join in here a bit later stating a different number and not even saying anything about what you disagree with about what I wrote? Or maybe you just missed my post? Seems a bit strange to me, that's all. :P
I was talking about mutilate. Also your calculation failed anyway unless your recount shows that 66% of your attacks crit on resilience. If anything even for shadow dance its closer to 33% (1% damage) rather then 66% (2% damage).

Now about lethality again.
It increase the critical damage of mutilates by 15%. Lets say 10% on resilience.
Since around 45% of your mutilates crit on resilience (42% base crit +15% punct wounds -12% resi)
—  the overall damage increase for mutilate is 5%

Right there we already see how its more sht that FW already in ANY situation. (6%>5%)
And thats not even factoring FA which you will have 2/3 if you invest 3pts in FW.
IThere is no reason to build any assumption around the fact that all your mutilates crit because its simply not true but even if they somehow will crit added benefit from FA and FW contributing to envenom will easily outweight it. But again, it WONT chain crit 4 times in a row.

I hope thats enough maths for you.
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#20 Arterian

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 09:00 AM

spell reflect

View PostZilea, on 08 October 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Believe it or not I'm a nice guy with a mild mannered personality. So no, i wouldn't "choke someone", even though my 6pack abs allow me to do that




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