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Has the design of death knights been a failure in WOTLK?


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#21 Cerebral

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:20 AM

Playing the class at a high level I'd say dks are in a pretty good place. Obviously we're tunneled into certain comps that are nowhere near the faceroll iconic comps for other classes such as Beastcleave/LSD/Dispelcleave/RLS etc but after spending alot of time on the TR I realized DKs arent really so bad compared to other classes. Obviously the class could use some buffs but I always see people comparing us to warriors in terms of damage etc. Warriors bring some retarded shit in terms of single target damage along with an undispellable MS and snare but they have to deal with some buggy shit with latency charges and spell reflects and getting trained by rogue/caster teams or globaled by some wizard or getting cced an ungodly amount. Plus the class is overall just clunky and after playing a DK which has an undeniably comfortable flow of abilities and cooldowns without the hassle of stance dancing every time you want to do something I vastly prefer playing a DK over a warrior regardless of the percieved handicap many DKs think we have.

People constantly complain about our lack of offensive capabilities but I think they're wrong tbh, the sheer amount of interrupts we have as well as incredible defensive capabilities which allow us to stay almost permanently offensive in even the most dangerous environments is alot more fun than having mortal strike and the ability to blow someone up if a well timed skillstorm crits enough times. DKs just about match the single target damage of a warrior so if you want to pretend you're a warrior also just play TSG and your damage will be just as effective as your warrior buddies on targets with MS except you bring a plethora of interrupts/silences which may end up stopping just as much healing if not more if you use them correctly.

The only truly obnoxious thing about DKs in their present state is the long cooldowns on our 'skill' abilities compared to others, Strang should be reduced to 1 minute 15s cooldown and gnaw should be taken down to 40 seconds. Our damage really isn't that bad especially since half the shit we're hitting is in cloth anyways and when we're on plate we have deathcoils to supplement us with reliable magic damage and pestilence lets us make fast and hard switches pretty easily.

I personally like the concept of fucking an entire enemy team with slows and raping healers with interrupts rather than just WoTLKing something like we used to do in S5, so what if we have to use our grip to peel a rogue off a hunter or spam our frost runes for chains instead of using grip to tunnel something and spamming scourge strike/icy touch, its alot more fun imo and I feel like using those tools correctly sets me apart from other dks wheras in s5 it was whoever had the best latency and pve gear got glad/rank 1 since everyone was just 1 buttoning icy touch on cooldown anyways. Who cares if we cant just WoTLK shit left and right like warriors and other drooling retards playing wizards, lets be honest its not like theyre doing it to us much anyways.

TL;DR I like playing my DK and I like this playstyle, if all you're going to do is whine about how the class is played currently its not that hard to reroll, I wish in cata they would keep us the same and just add a few buffs/abilities to put us up to par with the other classes but I prefer the direction DKs have gone in WoTLK to what they started the expansion as.
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everything cody says is 100% fact


#22 Atraille

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:22 AM

And no CC. And no ways out.

But cya later.


Why don't you try actually discussing topics?

Every time you post you're being a fucking douche bag.

There's really no reason for it.
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#23 neyzio

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:24 AM

Just make my plague strike remove hots and I'd be super happy :D
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#24 unitedstates

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:26 AM

no and yes

no because they made a class that IS SUPPOSED be a secondary dps primary utility class and it does its peels WELL. it brings control instead of damage which if dk just became another high dps class would be the same bs over and over again.

dk is the melee equiv of a mage. cc first dps later
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#25 Deathlygnome

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:27 AM

no and yes

no because they made a class that IS SUPPOSED be a secondary dps primary utility class and it does its peels WELL. it brings control instead of damage which if dk just became another high dps class would be the same bs over and over again.

dk is the melee equiv of a mage. cc first dps later


Comparing DK to mage is so blatantly retarded it's rather amazing.

Done with this thread. It's a joke.
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#26 Atraille

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:30 AM

Different classes are different.

And calling people who disagree with you morons is ridiculous.
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#27 Breadstickz

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:34 AM

Comparing DK to mage is so blatantly retarded it's rather amazing.

Done with this thread. It's a joke.


If you think DKs are horrible, you are playing them wrong. Sorry.

I see you complain about deathknights in every thread. You could have rerolled the other 9 classes by now if it's really that horrible. I don't know how you aren't banned for trolling yet.
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#28 Boness

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:35 AM

Comparing DK to mage is so blatantly retarded it's rather amazing.

Done with this thread. It's a joke.


It's seems as if your in every single death knight thread shooting down everyone else's opinion well you just constantly whine and whine about everything.

Play a different class already, kid.
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#29 Deathlygnome

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:36 AM

If you think DKs are horrible, you are playing them wrong. Sorry.

I see you complain about deathknights in every thread. You could have rerolled the other 9 classes by now if it's really that horrible. I don't know how you aren't banned for trolling yet.


Where did I say they were horrible once? I said comparing specs to classes is dumb. I said comparing a mage to a DK is a horrible comparison. And I said DK's are the only melee with no MS or CC.

Did I mention horrible at all? No.

It's seems as if your in every single death knight thread shooting down everyone else's opinion well you just constantly whine and whine about everything.

Play a different class already, kid.


If people make statements so amazingly dumb that it makes my jaw drop. I feel I need to comment on it.
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#30 Breadstickz

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:43 AM

Where did I say they were terrible once? I said comparing specs to classes is dumb. I said comparing a mage to a DK is a horrible comparison. And I said DK's are the only melee with no MS or CC.

Did I mention terrible at all? No.



If people make statements so amazingly dumb that it makes my jaw drop. I feel I need to comment on it.


Just notice you always arguing with people about the state of DKs. Just annoying to see you calling everyone an idiot if they disagree with you.

You can't be serious with the no cc part right? Chains, desecration, gnaw, etc. You can remove a melee from the game with Chains or control a caster with Immunities and interrupts/stuns/etc.

Also, (ret/prot) paladins don't have MS, neither do enh shaman, but often fill the niche in their comps. Not everyone can run around critting people for half their HP. The Unholy Blight change really helped a lot and honestly I think deathknights are fine. :deathknight:
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#31 Pythoness

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:48 AM

It's not season 5 anymore, get over it. DK's are not bad right now, they have the best peels and the best survivability of any class, and their damage is really not bad, they have the highest damage out-put of any class right now, it's just sustained, not burst. The thing is, DK's used to have all this I stated above plus rediculous burst damage! Now where DKs damage is stable your role in arena changed a bit I suppose - also your class requires you to play well to excel now, if you don't like it you could always reroll.
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#32 Deathlygnome

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:52 AM

@Exoh.

Prot ret paladins have a stun that's twice the duration on half the CD, not to mention their strangulate is 1 second less on 1/4th the cooldown and can crit for upwards of 10k (with wings, this is coming from a protret). One of the reasons Protret/MS/Druid is so devastatingly strong. Enhance Shamans have hex and the horribly designed wind shock(Let's lock casters out of a game at minimum 30% of the time, even more if specced for reverb., intelligently implemented imo).

People call us a utility class. But when enhance shamans and ret paladins were utility classes in BC they received quite a few changes (Rets once again suck more than anything out there but have 2 very viable specs).

We're the only class right now being told we're a 'utility' class and shit of that sort.


Tl;Dr

We're a decent spec (I can't say class) for pvp. But decent doesn't fit into wotlk. Like the other person said We're BC to everyone elses WotLK.
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#33 Cerebral

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:57 AM

@Exoh.

Prot ret paladins have a stun that's twice the duration on half the CD, not to mention their strangulate is 1 second less on 1/4th the cooldown and can crit for upwards of 10k (with wings, this is coming from a protret). One of the reasons Protret/MS/Druid is so devastatingly strong. Enhance Shamans have hex and the horribly designed wind shock(Let's lock casters out of a game at minimum 30% of the time, even more if specced for reverb intelligently implemented imo).

People call us a utility class. But when enhance shamans and ret paladins were utility classes in BC they received quite a few changes (Rets once again suck more than anything out there but have 2 very viable specs).

We're the only class right now being told we're a 'utility' class and shit of that sort.


So reroll, please stop posting you're an embarassment to our class with your constant whining and bickering with anyone that has the audacity to infer that you may be the problem not our class when its actually most likely the former.
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everything cody says is 100% fact


#34 Taylorswift

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 04:02 AM

One of the reasons Protret/MS/Druid is so devastatingly strong.


sh1tty comp actually
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#35 Deathlygnome

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 04:05 AM

sh1tty comp actually


I had a good experience playing it, but meh.
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#36 Zybak

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 04:06 AM

DK is a support role similar to feral druids, ret paladins, and enhancement shamans.
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Posted 18 June 2010 - 04:07 AM

Think about it: The only thing our class does is promote the imbalance of another class. The only real exception to this is Shadowcleave, which is the closest thing death knights have to a RMP-like comp, and it's not even that tough to play for the death knight.

But look at our comps:

TSG: Death knight "sets up" kills as warrior does retarded damage, typically to a priest, warlock, rogue or shaman.

PHD: Death knight peels for the hunter as he does unbearable ranged damage to one target.

Double healer: Death knight keeps people in the open as a priest spams Mana Burn.

None of this is to say that the death knight is ineffectual when it comes to damage, but the fact of the matter is this class is the only DPS class in the entire game who has a secondary role in damage and a primary role in utility, particularly in living for ridiculous amounts of time while peeling with the same two abilities. And none of that is anything that's really unique to the class, which is why classes like warlocks and warriors can typically fill in for a death knight and also provide more pressure.

The biggest proof of this is what death knights face in 5v5, Which is almost non-existence. After all, if death knights do nothing but provide peels and tons of survivability, why would you ever take one in a bracket that demands some sort of unique offensive utility and pressure?

It's also the same problem with the imbalanced comps like spell cleave and old melee cleaves: All they do is exploit a very specific aspect of the game, particularly with burst damage. Similarly, all death knights do is allow a certain class to exploit its own imbalances, particularly with burst damage.

I've been kinda bored with 3v3 lately, and it's just had me thinking about this sort of stuff. The design we have now has basically created the most unimportant class in the history of the game.

Things like Dark Simulacrum and Necrotic Strike could obviously change this stuff up, but it's safe to say that Blizzard's design for death knights during all of WOTLK has been an outright failure.


TLDR dk's are fine shut up
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#38 Blacksheezy

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 04:19 AM

DK is a support role similar to feral druids, ret paladins, and enhancement shamans.


Alright I agree that Death Knights are pretty much fine apart from a few things (Shields with UB is my primary gripe), this arguement actually irritates me somewhat. Comparing a spec to a class is hardly the way to go.
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#39 Deathlygnome

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 04:24 AM

Alright I agree that Death Knights are pretty much fine apart from a few things (Shields with UB is my primary gripe), this arguement actually irritates me somewhat. Comparing a spec to a class is hardly the way to go.


Which is when I call people retarded, and then have other people rage at me. Comparing a spec to a class is so dumb it's amazing.
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#40 IM ON A BOAT

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 04:27 AM

DK is a support role similar to feral druids, ret paladins, and enhancement shamans.


Thats completely wrong. There is no such thing as a 'support role' there is only classes with MS and classes without it. A DK is basically a hybrid class that combines warriors and warlocks. Affliction warlocks have cc and interrupts to slow healing and gain control as well as peels and strong defensive capabilities. They're just a weaker version of warlocks atm because haste scaling is way out of control for casters atm giving warlocks noticably powerful damage on top of their utilities which makes DKs feel underpowered by comparison and warrior gear/ARP scaling being out of control makes us feel underpowered when compared to our warrior counterparts in terms of damage especially with them having MS or obscene stunning capacity on top of their strong damage.

The specs mentioned above are simply the melee versions of hybrid healers which fill a completely different niche than a DK. If you check nearly every common DK comp you can replace them with either a warlock or a warrior and gain similar or effective results

PHD -> HLP/African
TSG -> (redundant since it has a warrior already but Mancleave is very strong)
Shadowcleave -> WLD or LLD/LLP (rofl)
Boring Cleave -> Dispel Cleave(s)

PHD is the only comp that is arguably stronger with a DK, but HLP is undeniably effective in its own right. PHDs strength comes from the nearly flawless synergy between Hunters, DKs, and Paladins current playstyles.

Basically with the removal of obscene haste/arp scaling DKs on a base level would prove to be a very potent class in their current form, but blizzard made the mistake of letting these stats get out of control and either ignorance, hubris, or dragonslayers are preventing them from scaling these stats down in the present expansion.

-Dariusqt
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