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Hunters Are Good but Are We That Good?: Reality and Perception Collide


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#41 Emopandah

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:38 PM

It's come to a point now that we have scaled too well with gear and we are getting back to the point that we reached in s5 which was retarded really the only thing holding us back from being nerf'd is Shd rogues & Warlocks keeping our rep down if you saw those classes/specs toned down you would see every team in the top 20 with a hunter again.

#42 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:39 PM

Arterian said:

Nobody is saying Hunters don't have counters. I realize that there probably isn't a Marks Hunter comp out there that can beat an equally skilled :warlock::shaman::druid:

The argument is that Hunters have less counters than classes they counter.

That's a sliding scale that exists between all classes. With that said you can't really say classes they counter if you're going to make that argument you should reference team comps they counter. A rogue on a RMP vs a hunter might be considered a soft counter or hard counter depending on the hunters team but a rogue on a well played RLS is a different story or a mage on shatter play or some wiz variant for example.

I do agree that I don't like how hunters are currently designed and I would change things If it was in my power. The current design makes it all but impossible to reach a good median and we'll constantly bounce from having too many counters to countering too many.

As far as what's working on live brackets hunters are not filling 50% of the top slots or any stupid representation like we saw with fresh WOTLK DKs or other instances of insane imbalance. Even at our BEST ever SV S5 we were still not overwhelmingly represented but that's not here nor there.
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#43 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:41 PM

supimkevin said:

obviously they get beat, everyone gets beat. thats like saying dks werent overpowered in s5 because teams could beat them. you beat them by outplaying them, the thing is 90% of the time they're going to win because of the dmg they do, not because they played better.

I don't know about that. There is quite a big of difference from a 2200 hunter to a 2700 hunter. They both may do the same damage but what fills in that gap? It sure as fuck isn't vanilla pudding.
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#44 Badvibes

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:43 PM

Levidian said:

So siting examples showing how perception skews reality and then asking people to put themselves in others shoes before ranting makes me come off as whiny child?

Logic = not found

I hardly call linking a screencap of the current SK top 100 "siting examples showing how perception skews reality" as it is a common tactic used by people to not-so-covertly imply that their class wants buffs.  I don't think that's the case with you, you're struggling to not receive nerfs at the moment.  Being teamed with a mage I can tell you that nothing gives them more trouble at the moment, it's like a 40 year old punching a 7 year old girl with polio in her pre-pubescent titties.  

Hunters are completely over the top versus mages at the moment, slightly over the top verse others.  If you are unwilling to admit that then please just stop making these threads.

Again I will say it, in caps so maybe you can understand this time:  

YOU ARE NOT PERSUADING ANYONE TO BELIEVE THAT HUNTERS ARE FINE THAT DON'T ALREADY THINK THAT HUNTERS ARE FINE.

PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE HUNTERS AREN'T FINE WILL CONTINUE TO THINK THAT AND NOTHING YOU POST WILL CHANGE THEIR MINDS.
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#45 Mitearidon

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:44 PM

I don't get it... who said hunters were bad in tbc? (don't bring up s1, noone cares, you could get rank 1 playing warlock/warlock that season)

hated them even more back then to be honest.

Son said:

Shadowmourne is fine

Felic said:

All the people against it are just as biased aswell

PROTECT THE ORANGES AT ALL COST!!!

#46 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:44 PM

Emopandah said:

It's come to a point now that we have scaled too well with gear and we are getting back to the point that we reached in s5 which was retarded really the only thing holding us back from being nerf'd is Shd rogues & Warlocks keeping our rep down if you saw those classes/specs toned down you would see every team in the top 20 with a hunter again.

That's a check and balance that is not seen with just hunters. Warlocks seemingly balance out hunters while hunters seemingly balance at mages and mages traditionally balanced out warriors etc.

It's a give and take. We do scale pretty well but we have to drop resilience to arguably dangerous levels to do so because as a class we know how important damage pressure is as a hunter and if we don't have it we're in trouble. All classes flow differently being on the offensive vs defensive but a lot of the time as a hunter if you're not forcing LOS you've already lost.
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#47 Emopandah

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:46 PM

Badvibes said:

Hunters are completely over the top versus mages at the moment, slightly over the top verse others.  If you are unwilling to admit that then please just stop making these threads.

It's sad how true this is, if a mage blocks before I readiness 99% of the time i'll call out "ok killing mage when hes out of block"

5seconds later the mage is flat on the ground:(

#48 kkambanite

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:46 PM

Levidian said:

mage+rogue yes

but not rogue or mage specifically

There are mage and rogue comps that are very competitive against hunters did you even read the blog?

yes, but i quoted a previous reply.

and no, i dont think any mage team can compete with any hunter team, simply cause the mage will ib before he pops his ele
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#49 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:46 PM

Mitearidon said:

I don't get it... who said hunters were bad in tbc?

hated them even more back then to be honest.

Hunters in TBC were fucking horribly designed whoever was in charge of that shit should be embarrassed.

We literally stood on ONE single ability and that was viper sting. (talking 3v3 bracket)

If viper sting would have been nerfed in TBC RMP would have instantly started beating hunters instead of being hard countered by them as an example.
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#50 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:47 PM

kkambanite said:

yes, but i quoted a previous reply.

and no, i dont think any mage team can compete with any hunter team, simply cause the mage will ib before he pops his ele
  
:rolleyes:
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#51 Frozzt

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:47 PM

because sk top100 matters

#52 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:48 PM

Neloangelo said:

hi my name is levidian im going to make another thread to try and convince people that my class isn't op in a last ditch attempt to dodge the nerf bat

Hunters won't be nerfed this expansion. There is no reason to. What the class needs to a massive design revamp and that's planned for cata.
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#53 Dues

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:50 PM

Neloangelo said:

hi my name is levidian im going to make another thread to try and convince people that my class isn't op in a last ditch attempt to dodge the nerf bat

Lol.

It really amazes me how bias and unwilling people are to accept their own OPness.Even stating so will get you flamed on AJ now a days, used to be honest and valid discussion on how to nerf but not over nerf, now just flaming and epeening mixed in with some bias and misdirection.

Hunters/Mages/Warriors/SPriest are all imho the TOP dogs(in that order) in PvP/Arena atm, anyone arguing to the contrary is either ignorant or bias imo, but that's why we have opinions, so people can disagree with them and tell us were bad.

Expansions over guys, no need for rhetoric and lies, you're OP who cares.
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#54 Mitearidon

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:50 PM

Levidian said:

Hunters in TBC were fucking horribly designed whoever was in charge of that shit should be embarrassed.

We literally stood on ONE single ability and that was viper sting. (talking 3v3 bracket)

If viper sting would have been nerfed in TBC RMP would have instantly started beating hunters instead of being hard countered by them as an example.

cherez would probably disagree with you.

just happy no hunter in the world is on his level. I could see him being 3k in all brackets this season :/

like someone said earlier on in the thread. hunters have the least counters and they counter most classes. it's not a balanced class.

Son said:

Shadowmourne is fine

Felic said:

All the people against it are just as biased aswell

PROTECT THE ORANGES AT ALL COST!!!

#55 Guest_Shizzle_*

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:50 PM

Levidian said:

Hunters won't be nerfed this expansion. There is no reason to. What the class needs to a massive design revamp and that's planned for cata.

Check my post on page 3, think it'll be a better idea than what you said in your "blog". But who knows

#56 Wrl

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:54 PM

I think ultimately the point is that Hunters are overpowered 40% of the time, underpowered 40% of the time and balanced 20% of the time. (More or less arbitrary numbers) So the net result are that we are balanced in 3v3 representation, but a whole lot of people see us as overpowered and like to complain about it (with good reason).

I have no problem with hunters being TUNED (versus straight out nerfed). If we need to be balanced vs certain comps/classes, they can adjust certain abilities down and then buff up some of our weaknesses to other classes.

Obviously, the biggest problem is warlocks (why aren't people complaining about them again?). Give us a tool to compete against them and I'd settle with other classes having a better chance against hunters.

I really just can't see Blizzard doing this kind of big overhaul with a large class revamp on the horizon.

And honestly, I think PvE gear is a big reason for a lot of these imbalances.

#57 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:55 PM

Shizzle said:

Not to troll or to be a jerk, but have you faced hunters as another class? My rogue mate can go from 100-30% in an entrapment snare at times. My priest char has a very hard time healing their damage all game except if they are CCed and stunned, ofc that is rather logical but I seriously prefer a destro warlock or elemental shaman nuking me for example which, is pretty wrong imo. I can go on with my other chars aswell, not to mention my mage lol. I'm all for hunters being good and stuff but right now they are good for a bit of the wrong reason imo, tone down the damage and increase survivability. You don't have to defend your damage because that's pretty stupid if you are trying to make a valid argument, instead go for an angle where as you agree that it's over the top but you would need to be compensated in other areas to not become utter shit or something like that.
I'm not defending the damage it's competitive vs a lot of classes and it's arguably too high vs low armor. This is being addressed in cata as part of the armor revamps as well as the hunter class revamps.

I don't have a link but I've recently talked or posted about how a damage nerf to hunters would have to coincide with potentially substantial survivability, mobility, and potentially longevity changes.

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I know this wasn't a great post or way to prove you wrong, but that wasn't my intention. But I'm a bit sick of people trying to justify totally wrong things, like when DKs screamed for MS and shit because without it they apparently sucked, (insert more stupid things like destro locks defending pre-nerf damage and globaling people etc).
See above.

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Your idea of putting the RMP players in other setups for example, well that's just not smart. So the way for lets say a mage to not get buttraped by a hunter, and instead become "very scary", is to instead play a wizard cleave. Which hunters in return (what I've read atleast) despise since the damage is too high vs your defensive cooldowns and their CC. So you are actually trying to tell people to play stuff that you find retarded so that they wont find you retarded and instead you find them retarded? You get my drift, just getting the stats of top teams isn't going to prove any kind of "class balances" even if they can be used as a guideline at times.
RMP vs Hunters was only used as an example about how perception can be and is skewed by different players based off the comps they play and how that correlates to a hunters success against them.

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I know counters exist etc but still, you don't want to enforce people to play stuff you hate just so that they don't hate you. Instead try getting people to agree with you needing other stuff than that sick dmg so that it's actually noticeable if a hunter is really really good or not imo.
I doubt you've read my blogs or all my posts but that topic has been discussed before and I agree. The biggest problem is our posion use that one aspect forces a significant difference in hunter pressure by just changing the healer in a lot of teams and creates the too strong vs some too weak vs others situation and most of that things on base design such as poison reliance.

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And the point of you nuking a healer until he runs oom in a duel with PvE rotation, seriously. That's a reliable way to see how a class does in arena, ehm nah. If the game was supposed to be balanced around 2s, maybe, but it isn't, you always have a partner with you.
You apparently missed the point as well. All that example attempted to do was refute the "unhealable" damage claim which is obviously horse shit and can be easily disproved with a simple test even if the test is skewed HIGHLY in the hunters favor.

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Just my 2 cents, flame away <.<

Why would I flame?
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#58 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:57 PM

Dues said:

Lol.

It really amazes me how bias and unwilling people are to accept their own OPness.Even stating so will get you flamed on AJ now a days, used to be honest and valid discussion on how to nerf but not over nerf, now just flaming and epeening mixed in with some bias and misdirection.

Hunters/Mages/Warriors/SPriest are all imho the TOP dogs(in that order) in PvP/Arena atm, anyone arguing to the contrary is either ignorant or bias imo, but that's why we have opinions, so people can disagree with them and tell us were bad.

Expansions over guys, no need for rhetoric and lies, you're OP who cares.

We don't need nerfd the class needs changed. It can't really see expansive changes the likes of which are needed outside of an expansion change.

The call for nerfs which you sited DID take place during S5 when we legitimately needed some nerfs.

If you nerfed hunter damage right now the class would rapidly drop in representation because right now it's one of the aspects that's propping us up and helping to overshadow many of the weaknesses.
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#59 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:58 PM

Wrl said:

I think ultimately the point is that Hunters are overpowered 40% of the time, underpowered 40% of the time and balanced 20% of the time. (More or less arbitrary numbers) So the net result are that we are balanced in 3v3 representation, but a whole lot of people see us as overpowered and like to complain about it (with good reason).

I have no problem with hunters being TUNED (versus straight out nerfed). If we need to be balanced vs certain comps/classes, they can adjust certain abilities down and then buff up some of our weaknesses to other classes.

Obviously, the biggest problem is warlocks (why aren't people complaining about them again?). Give us a tool to compete against them and I'd settle with other classes having a better chance against hunters.

I really just can't see Blizzard doing this kind of big overhaul with a large class revamp on the horizon.

And honestly, I think PvE gear is a big reason for a lot of these imbalances.

Well said.
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#60 Volbian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 03:00 PM

I was going to post this thread but never got around to it
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