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Hunters Are Good but Are We That Good?: Reality and Perception Collide


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#21 Magnifibeast

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:20 PM

Arterian said:

I can't die solo to any class in the game on my Priest as Disc unless I'm oom (with the exception of Warriors, which I can kill before they kill me 1v1.) I guess that means Disc Priests have too much survivability?

You know you guys are grasping at straws when you're trying to justify Hunter damage by saying they can't kill a healer 1v1.

It's pretty simple. Either hunters do unhealable damage, or they don't.

If hunters do unhealable damage, then a healer standing in the open doing nothing but healing would die.

Or, if hunters don't do unhealable damage, then that healer wont die.

All before LoS, dispells, etc.

If your argument is that hunters do too much damage, that's fine, but that's not what was brought up.

#22 Cavsux

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:22 PM

Adori said:

the arguement that hunters were not good in tbc is moot.  Since hunters were one of the best classes, rep doesn't mean anything when you can get #1 in every bracket with a 99% win rate playing drain teams.

3 second aimed shot. nuff said


On Topic:

but as for now hunters are really really good. and they are overpowered against some teams and completely shit against others. The reason why hunters aren't higher rated is because the teams that they completely shit on without so much as a thought are not being played anymore because people don't like losing to terrible people that can just spam damage. Look at the top teams most of them have a lock on them. To get to the top you have to beat the really good lock teams which has always been tough for hunters, even now with our stupidly retarted burst on clothies. However just because one class gives us a hard time doesn't mean that we aren't overpowered. But honestly if you ask me everything is out of balance at the moment and there isn't an easy fix. If hunters get nerfed something else will get better most likely mages and priests and rogues (yes we shit on rogues too). Just gotta ride everything out till cata and hope resilience will fix things.

#23 lysia

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:22 PM

the problem is when you combine a hunter with a dk/prot ret
making you unable to hug the hunter cause you get permanent slow on you. and every 10 sec there is a burst of 10k+ which steady dmg of the dk prot/ret is making it almost unhealable. in 2vs2 I find hunters really weak on almost every class I play dk-priest-warlock. but in 3s combined with a good healer and prot/ret, dk getting shit on every game. resto shaman-prot/ret-hunter with fear immunity is just retarted.
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#24 Badvibes

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:23 PM

Considered posting a wall of text about how Hunter damage isn't unhealable on its own, but can very easily become unhealable with the right partners.  Instead deciding to ask Levidia:

Why even bother making a thread like this?  Those that agree with you will continue to agree with you, and those that disagree with you will continue to disagree with you.  You're not swaying anybody and truth be told are coming off like a whiny child.
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#25 Guest_Shizzle_*

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:23 PM

Not to troll or to be a jerk, but have you faced hunters as another class? My rogue mate can go from 100-30% in an entrapment snare at times. My priest char has a very hard time healing their damage all game except if they are CCed and stunned, ofc that is rather logical but I seriously prefer a destro warlock or elemental shaman nuking me for example which, is pretty wrong imo. I can go on with my other chars aswell, not to mention my mage lol. I'm all for hunters being good and stuff but right now they are good for a bit of the wrong reason imo, tone down the damage and increase survivability. You don't have to defend your damage because that's pretty stupid if you are trying to make a valid argument, instead go for an angle where as you agree that it's over the top but you would need to be compensated in other areas to not become utter shit or something like that.

I know this wasn't a great post or way to prove you wrong, but that wasn't my intention. But I'm a bit sick of people trying to justify totally wrong things, like when DKs screamed for MS and shit because without it they apparently sucked, (insert more stupid things like destro locks defending pre-nerf damage and globaling people etc).

Your idea of putting the RMP players in other setups for example, well that's just not smart. So the way for lets say a mage to not get buttraped by a hunter, and instead become "very scary", is to instead play a wizard cleave. Which hunters in return (what I've read atleast) despise since the damage is too high vs your defensive cooldowns and their CC. So you are actually trying to tell people to play stuff that you find retarded so that they wont find you retarded and instead you find them retarded? You get my drift, just getting the stats of top teams isn't going to prove any kind of "class balances" even if they can be used as a guideline at times.

I know counters exist etc but still, you don't want to enforce people to play stuff you hate just so that they don't hate you. Instead try getting people to agree with you needing other stuff than that sick dmg so that it's actually noticeable if a hunter is really really good or not imo.

And the point of you nuking a healer until he runs oom in a duel with PvE rotation, seriously. That's a reliable way to see how a class does in arena, ehm nah. If the game was supposed to be balanced around 2s, maybe, but it isn't, you always have a partner with you.

Just my 2 cents, flame away <.<

#26 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:23 PM

Arterian said:

I agree man, same with Ret Pallys, Shadow Priest, Enhancement Shamans, Feral Druids.

They were all free points in TBC and now we can actually compete and people are calling us overpowered?

Reality check, you're fucking retarded if you think Hunters are anything but overpowered and even more so if you think that the only reason everyone but Hunters thinks so is because "we're used to them sucking from TBC" or that the fact that Hunters weren't good in TBC (they were,) makes it ok for them to be in the current state they are in.

I haven't seen anyone make that argument. I don't think any class "deserves" to be X or Y because they were X or Y in the past.

Quote

If you think RMP is the only team that struggles with Hunters, you are absolutely wrong. That's like saying Shaman teams are immune to Fear because of Tremor totem. Stomp the totem, CC the healer, crit for 7k on virtually any class with a MS effect that  has 100% uptime with the exception of a 25% chance for Rogues for a maximum of 30 seconds a match.
Who said anything about RMP being the only comp that struggles with hunters? So far that's twice in your post that you're attempting to put words in peoples mouths. I would work on some reading comprehension drills if I were you.

Quote

Before Levidian comes in with his classic reasoning of "people just don't know how to fight hunters." I'm sorry. This is an easy game. It only took people a month to figure out how to beat Shadow Priest teams. Do you really think there is something about your class that we haven't figured out in the past year that we're missing? "Just LoS." By that justification, wizard cleave is completely balanced because you can just LoS them. "Stand on top of the Hunter." There is one class in the game that can do this currently, and it is DKs (if Chains isn't being dispelled.)
Who said anything about LOS? You're 0-3 so far. Hunters have a complex relationship and it truthfully is something that even a lot of the gladiator caliber players still don't have a strong understanding of. There are times when you need to hug, when you need to LOS, and when you need to go offensive, etc. Most people have one mindset or the other and only do that one thing whether it's true to hug all game or los all game etc you'll have a lot lower chance of success if you approach a hunter from one dimension.

Quote

I could go on, but I'm not feeling well and the thought that someone actually thinks Hunters are anything close to balanced is making my head hurt.

We're just as balanced/imbalanced as many of the other classes in the game. I would argue our current design makes it so that how we scale at the extremes vs and as different setups is skewed but that's part of being a poison reliant class (a total fuck up by blizzard development IMO).

You also have to realize that we as hunters (wait for it mind about to be blown) FIGHT AGAINST OTHER HUNTERS IN THE ARENA. We know how much damage we do and take. We know that we have to adapt our play when fighting a hunter and utilize all the tools and knowledge we have. Against a beast cleave last night I had utilize different tactics to stay alive ranging from LOSing, to physically wing clipping him and standing on top of him to attempting to force defensive CDs through damage all during different times and different situations during the flow of the fight.
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#27 Bulrug

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:24 PM

Arterian said:

I can't die solo to any class in the game on my Priest as Disc unless I'm oom (with the exception of Warriors, which I can kill before they kill me 1v1.) I guess that means Disc Priests have too much survivability?

You know you guys are grasping at straws when you're trying to justify Hunter damage by saying they can't kill a healer 1v1.

no im referring to the mage who said we do "unhealable damage", which is obviously a lie if a free casting hunter cant get someone below 80%

i like you arterianz, but i think your 100% wrong on this. If hunters are so good, our representation would be higher and we would have more rank 1 viable comps, with the current only viable ones seem to be PHDk (loses to wizards, and double healer is 50/50, and has alot of trouble with warlocks in general), beastcleave (very good in s5 gear, but on live there arent many successful teams outside check6 running it), and i guess you could make an argument for HLP, but i could def see that losing to WLD and wizards.
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#28 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:25 PM

Arterian said:

I can't die solo to any class in the game on my Priest as Disc unless I'm oom (with the exception of Warriors, which I can kill before they kill me 1v1.) I guess that means Disc Priests have too much survivability?

You know you guys are grasping at straws when you're trying to justify Hunter damage by saying they can't kill a healer 1v1.

No we just used that example to refute the mindless "unhealable damage" claim that a lot ignorant players like to throw around.
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#29 Tribz

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:26 PM

Most if not all of the problems i have with hunters are problems with my class not yours.

I'd say hunters are good right now, not overpowered but leaning on that side of the spectrum.

It just really blows knowing that a perfectly played hunter will never let you touch him once, you cannot do it (as a rogue ofc.)

Try playing a rogue against a phd, its unbearable... watching the hunter and the dk kite you because they both know you will never do any damage and you are being made worthless while your team tries to recover from the obscene damage your taking =\


but most of these problems are with rogues, I'd say hunters are real good right now, not quite over the top

#30 Arterian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:28 PM

Levidian said:

Who said anything about RMP being the only comp that struggles with hunters?

Who said anything about LOS? You're 0-3 so far.

These are the "go-to" arguments on the Hunter forum for justification of the state of your class. I was just preemptively dismissing them as retarded before you or anyone else tries to bring them up.

View PostZilea, on 08 October 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Believe it or not I'm a nice guy with a mild mannered personality. So no, i wouldn't "choke someone", even though my 6pack abs allow me to do that

#31 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:28 PM

Badvibes said:

Considered posting a wall of text about how Hunter damage isn't unhealable on its own, but can very easily become unhealable with the right partners.  Instead deciding to ask Levidia:

Why even bother making a thread like this?  Those that agree with you will continue to agree with you, and those that disagree with you will continue to disagree with you.  You're not swaying anybody and truth be told are coming off like a whiny child.

So siting examples showing how perception skews reality and then asking people to put themselves in others shoes before ranting makes me come off as whiny child?

Logic = not found
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#32 supimkevin

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:28 PM

Magnifibeast said:

It's pretty simple. Either hunters do unhealable damage, or they don't.

If hunters do unhealable damage, then a healer standing in the open doing nothing but healing would die.

Or, if hunters don't do unhealable damage, then that healer wont die.

All before LoS, dispells, etc.

If your argument is that hunters do too much damage, that's fine, but that's not what was brought up.
are all hunters complete retards? when you cant use a gcd to do anything but heal because you happened to get a hunter team is ridiculous, especially when one scatter shot gets you so far behind that you have to use multiple cds to recover and then when its back up  you have no chance at living  because that 3 seconds you werent healing your partner will go from 100% to 0 just from the hunter alone.

#33 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:29 PM

Arterian said:

These are the "go-to" arguments on the Hunter forum for justification of the state of your class. I was just preemptively dismissing them as retarded before you or anyone else tries to bring them up.

:rolleyes:
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#34 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:30 PM

supimkevin said:

are all hunters complete retards? when you cant use a gcd to do anything but heal because you happened to get a hunter team is ridiculous, especially when one scatter shot gets you so far behind that you have to use multiple cds to recover and then when its back up  you have no chance at living  because that 3 seconds you werent healing your partner will go from 100% to 0 just from the hunter alone.

So how do all these teams beat hunters? Do they have some magic skills that you don't?
Look at all the best hunter teams in the game they all have plenty of losses. Even proclaimed GOD comps like hunter/dk and hunter/protX geat beat.

I mean if we do unhealable damage supported by classes that take away all weaknesses manned by extremely experienced players how do we ever lose?
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#35 Bulrug

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:33 PM

because were all bad apparently :)

edit: and got massively outplayed
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#36 kkambanite

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:34 PM

i dunno how hunter teams loose, but i can tell u how hunter teams win - with a 90% win ratio vs mage/rogue teams, its a stairway to high ranks
:mage: sheep the :deathknight: before u die and we win

#37 Magnifibeast

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:34 PM

supimkevin said:

are all hunters complete retards? when you cant use a gcd to do anything but heal because you happened to get a hunter team is ridiculous, especially when one scatter shot gets you so far behind that you have to use multiple cds to recover and then when its back up  you have no chance at living  because that 3 seconds you werent healing your partner will go from 100% to 0 just from the hunter alone.

Honestly, this sort of ridiculous bias adds nothing to the discussion, why are you posting?

We get it, you think hunters do unhealable damage, we're not going to change your mind. But rambling on a bunch of nonsense like this isn't worth anyones time reading.

#38 Arterian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:35 PM

Levidian said:

So how do all these teams beat hunters? Do they have some magic skills that you don't?
Look at all the best hunter teams in the game they all have plenty of losses. Even proclaimed GOD comps like hunter/dk and hunter/protX geat beat.

I mean if we do unhealable damage supported by classes that take away all weaknesses manned by extremely experienced players how do we ever lose?

Nobody is saying Hunters don't have counters. I realize that there probably isn't a Marks Hunter comp out there that can beat an equally skilled :warlock::shaman::druid:

The argument is that Hunters have less counters than classes they counter.

View PostZilea, on 08 October 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Believe it or not I'm a nice guy with a mild mannered personality. So no, i wouldn't "choke someone", even though my 6pack abs allow me to do that

#39 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:36 PM

kkambanite said:

i dunno how hunter teams loose, but i can tell u how hunter teams win - with a 90% win ratio vs mage/rogue teams, its a stairway to high ranks

mage+rogue yes

but not rogue or mage specifically

There are mage and rogue comps that are very competitive against hunters did you even read the blog?
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#40 supimkevin

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:37 PM

Levidian said:

So how do all these teams beat hunters? Do they have some magic skills that you don't?
Look at all the best hunter teams in the game they all have plenty of losses. Even proclaimed GOD comps like hunter/dk and hunter/protX geat beat.

I mean if we do unhealable damage supported by classes that take away all weaknesses manned by extremely experienced players how do we ever lose?

obviously they get beat, everyone gets beat. thats like saying dks werent overpowered in s5 because teams could beat them. you beat them by outplaying them, the thing is 90% of the time they're going to win because of the dmg they do, not because they played better.




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