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Hunters Are Good but Are We That Good?: Reality and Perception Collide


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#1 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 01:43 PM

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Let me just start by saying...

hunters  are good but are we "that" good? We're going to let reality  challenge  the perception. This blog is not going to be a call for buffs, nerfs,   or specific changes it's going to challenge what you may think you know   based off the seemingly common perception that hunters are some  ungodly,  unstoppable, and insanely overpowered super class.

One of  the most important contributing factors to this phenomenon is that there  is one specific team setup that has a consistent, unrelenting, and  outspoken bias directed towards the hunter class.  The team setup is  obviously RMP a long time staple of the 3v3 arena scene and  seemingly  never ending source of competitive challenges for those who decide to  tackle the brackets/tournaments as the comp. From posting on WoWRiot,  ArenaJunkies, and even the WoW general forums it's obvious to even the  most out of touch bystander or lurker that certain classes ******* hate  hunters.

The most biased view that  has ever existed...exists  because of the competitive advantage a poison balanced physical ranged  class has over a low armor poison vulnerable team. This is something I  have to explain time and time again and it's something that for some  reason is so hard to grasp for some that it's almost mind blowing.  !NEWSFLASH! there are classes and specs in this game that are better  suited to killing other classes and specs this is not something that  only exists between hunters and RMP teams.

The easiest way to  explain this to someone that is arguing with horse blinders on is you  can displace individual members of RMP into other team setups and  suddenly they are not only competitive against hunters but they're  downright scary for many hunter setups to face. Placing the rogue into a  RLS setup the mage into some type of wizard cleave and the priest into  shatterplay or RSpriestRsham.

The reason it's so annoying when  people that play RMP complain about hunters is because their viewpoint  is realistically from the worst possible angle that exists for them in  the 3v3 bracket and they see a hunter in literally his shining light as  far as class vs comp competition goes and how different specs influence  the meta game.

There are some cold  hard facts... that we can use to take a look at hunter  performance and compare it to the other classes fighting for that MS  team slot.
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There are currently 2  teams that have broken into the top of the 3v3 world ladder both of  which are sponsored teams and one has extensive live tourney experience.  Twixz's 3v3 beastcleave and the guys from mTw running SV/UA/Hpal. In  comparison there are 5 warriors, 5 rogues, 6 druids, 10 shaman, 4 death  knights, 6 paladins, 3 mages, and 3 priests. How is it that hunters with  our 100,000 damage kill shots, 100 yard range mortal strike, and  "endless defensive cool downs because of readiness" not able to be more  well represented among the top of the competitive arena world?

If  you expand this to the top 100 3v3 teams in the world are compare the  numbers among the classes competing to apply heal de-buffs.

24  Hunters
26 Warriors
17 Rogues

In reality that's a pretty even comparison for the  sample size and considering the rogue staple RMP isn't as competitive as  it has been in the past the numbers look reasonable.

The game as a whole... is arguably more  balanced right now than it has been at any point in the past with every  class having an opportunity for R1 contention and in general a more even  representation across the 3v3 bracket than has ever been experienced  before. The game is faster paced and more CD driven but I would argue  against those who would say it takes "less skill" now than it did in the  past. The game is slightly less chess and more action but the  positioning and decision making speed necessary to compete today is  extremely challenging to the point where split second decision make or  break a match for a team sometimes dozens of times over the course of a  fight.

This type of quick response is obvious when you queue into  a lower ranked team and they get demolished while seemingly just  standing there with their thumbs hidden. It's not because they're slow,  retarded, or stupid it's because they haven't fully adjusted to the pace  of the new end game where momentum swings and quick CD switches are  common and necessary.

Next time before you rant about another  class regardless of what your class or theirs is try to consider the  position you face that class in and how your opinions could  realistically be based off bias supported by a weakened meta position. A  class you have a lot of trouble with has just as much trouble from  someone else and the circle of life continues.
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#2 Ckasper

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 01:48 PM

Exactly.
We only see those getting pwned (RMP) by hunters literally every time, rant about how overpowered we are - this reflects into other peoples OWN idea of Hunters and how good they are.

Bandwagon? Yessir.

#3 Granter

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 01:56 PM

Tbh i think TBC left a huge a scar on the class, ppl where used to killing hunters with minimal efford and now when they get killed by one "no more or less then any other class" they are all like omfg hunter killed me now???

#4 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 01:59 PM

Granter said:

Tbh i think TBC left a huge a scar on the class, ppl where used to killing hunters with minimal efford and now when they get killed by one "no more or less then any other class" they are all like omfg hunter killed me now???

Yea there definitely seems to be a mindset even if it's subconscious that you're supposed to beat hunters when you fight them and when you lose to a hunter it means something is wrong.
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#5 cinn

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:02 PM

Quote

the mage into some type of wizard cleave and the priest into shatterplay or RSpriestRsham.

stopped reading there

you must be trolling

#6 supimkevin

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:07 PM

hunter damage is virtually unhealable without losing or ccing =/ and the thing is they have a pretty good amount of cc, and they still put out that damage while they're being focused (if you can manage to focus a hunter as a melee class). it isnt just rmp, their dmg is out of control on everything that isnt plate.

also: before you say "typical mage complaining about hunters" the thing is ive played pretty much every class in arena and hunters are ridiculous at all angles, even still one class shouldnt counter another so much that it them from being r1 viable in any comp outside of shatterplay

#7 Snorkill

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:08 PM

Yeah, you are that good.

#8 Hidden

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:09 PM

As far as my experience goes - played DK, Warrior, Mage, Hunter this expansion - I'd say Hunters still are way too dependant on their own and the enemies' comp. As a MM Hunter there are worlds between playing against RMP (weak targets, no poison removal) and playing against TSG/double heal (poison removal, no weak targets). On my - I have to admit not too well geared - Hunter it could be anything between "Lol I just made that Mage block right away" and "holy crap all I'm doing is reapplying sting, stomping totems with my pet and keeping MS up".

#9 Saracens

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:10 PM

the arguement that hunters were not good in tbc is moot.  Since hunters were one of the best classes, rep doesn't mean anything when you can get #1 in every bracket with a 99% win rate playing drain teams.
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#10 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:10 PM

supimkevin said:

hunter damage is virtually unhealable without losing or ccing =/ and the thing is they have a pretty good amount of cc, and they still put out that damage while they're being focused (if you can manage to focus a hunter as a melee class). it isnt just rmp, their dmg is out of control on everything that isnt plate.

also: before you say "typical mage complaining about hunters" the thing is ive played pretty much every class in arena and hunters are ridiculous at all angles, even still one class shouldnt counter another so much that it them from being r1 viable in any comp outside of shatterplay

How is it virtually unhealable?

You can take ANY of the 4 healers in the game and duel a high end well geared hunter and they can stand in 1 spot and tank him with hunters mark up easily until the hunter runs oom. This is letting the hunter run a max DPS PvE rotation too.
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#11 Getrugged

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:11 PM

cinn said:

stopped reading there

you must be trolling

yea dude coz shatterplay has alot of problems with hunters....
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#12 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:12 PM

Hidden said:

As far as my experience goes - played DK, Warrior, Mage, Hunter this season - I'd say Hunters still are way too dependant on their own and the enemies' comp. As a MM Hunter there are worlds between playing against RMP (weak targets, no poison removal) and playing against TSG/double heal (poison removal, no weak targets).

I agree we are not very well designed.

The problem is it's up to Blizzard to change that. We likely won't see any meaningful changes to pull in the extremes until cata.
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#13 supimkevin

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:12 PM

Levidian said:

How is it virtually unhealable?

You can take ANY of the 4 healers in the game and duel a high end well geared hunter and they can stand in 1 spot and tank him with hunters mark up easily until the hunter runs oom. This is letting the hunter run a max DPS PvE rotation too.


if you arent trolling i honestly feel sorry for you :( i knew people were biased, but jesus. duels matter btw :rolleyes:

#14 Getrugged

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:13 PM

errrr, you said about whether or not we are unhealable. If i get a holy pal below 80% just standing there doing my pve rotation itll be a miracle
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#15 Arterian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:14 PM

Granter said:

Tbh i think TBC left a huge a scar on the class, ppl where used to killing hunters with minimal efford and now when they get killed by one "no more or less then any other class" they are all like omfg hunter killed me now???

I agree man, same with Ret Pallys, Shadow Priest, Enhancement Shamans, Feral Druids.

They were all free points in TBC and now we can actually compete and people are calling us overpowered?

Reality check, you're fucking retarded if you think Hunters are anything but overpowered and even more so if you think that the only reason everyone but Hunters thinks so is because "we're used to them sucking from TBC" or that the fact that Hunters weren't good in TBC (they were,) makes it ok for them to be in the current state they are in.

If you think RMP is the only team that struggles with Hunters, you are absolutely wrong. That's like saying Shaman teams are immune to Fear because of Tremor totem. Stomp the totem, CC the healer, crit for 7k on virtually any class with a MS effect that  has 100% uptime with the exception of a 25% chance for Rogues for a maximum of 30 seconds a match.

Before Levidian comes in with his classic reasoning of "people just don't know how to fight hunters." I'm sorry. This is an easy game. It only took people a month to figure out how to beat Shadow Priest teams. Do you really think there is something about your class that we haven't figured out in the past year that we're missing? "Just LoS." By that justification, wizard cleave is completely balanced because you can just LoS them. "Stand on top of the Hunter." There is one class in the game that can do this currently, and it is DKs (if Chains isn't being dispelled.)

I could go on, but I'm not feeling well and the thought that someone actually thinks Hunters are anything close to balanced is making my head hurt.

View PostZilea, on 08 October 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Believe it or not I'm a nice guy with a mild mannered personality. So no, i wouldn't "choke someone", even though my 6pack abs allow me to do that

#16 Ckasper

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:14 PM

Wupsie.
Hunter damage outhealable - duels would prove that.. Does it?

#17 Trikso

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:16 PM

Hidden said:

As far as my experience goes - played DK, Warrior, Mage, Hunter this expansion - I'd say Hunters still are way too dependant on their own and the enemies' comp. As a MM Hunter there are worlds between playing against RMP (weak targets, no poison removal) and playing against TSG/double heal (poison removal, no weak targets).

the key is to find the weak target, or to create enough pressure that your enemies fall behind with heals. i'm playing phdk so pressure is really not a problem for us even against tsg and doubleheals, but this applies to a lot more hunter setups if not all of them
2.7k nonglad Warrior commenting on RMP

View PostTezhu, on 14 March 2011 - 03:57 PM, said:

overpowered

warrior reporting in

there are so many bad players at high ratings right now because they got a skill boost with 4.0.6 x.X

#18 Levidian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:16 PM

supimkevin said:

if you arent trolling i honestly feel sorry for you :( i knew people were biased, but jesus. duels matter btw :rolleyes:

It's an example that easily proves that hunter damage is more than healable. We have two high damage abilities aimed shot and chimera shot other than that it's filler. Those 2 abilities can actually move health pools. Hunters kill people by finishing off wounded targets in most 3v3 setups buy bursting them from 40-50% into kill shot range (20-30% health pool bursts).

If a healer can easily heal a hunter while the hunter gets to do even more damage than in an arena setting WHILE having multiple easily dispelable debuffs up how could the damage be considered unhealable?
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#19 Arterian

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:17 PM

juventino_hero said:

errrr, you said about whether or not we are unhealable. If i get a holy pal below 80% just standing there doing my pve rotation itll be a miracle

I can't die solo to any class in the game on my Priest as Disc unless I'm oom (with the exception of Warriors, which I can kill before they kill me 1v1.) I guess that means Disc Priests have too much survivability?

You know you guys are grasping at straws when you're trying to justify Hunter damage by saying they can't kill a healer 1v1.

View PostZilea, on 08 October 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Believe it or not I'm a nice guy with a mild mannered personality. So no, i wouldn't "choke someone", even though my 6pack abs allow me to do that

#20 Smontage

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:18 PM

100% agree, I feel myself that I still subscribe to the mindset that I should beat all hunters which is a pretty archaic TBC sentiment (and I suppose to a certain extent as a warlock, I still should :>).

Anyone that finds hunters godly needs to play with one - they have their (rather glaring) weaknesses. Nonetheless they're quickly headed towards the same half-sealed coffin warriors already find themselves in - if you don't train a good hunter, he will WRECK you. If you do, only the most exceptional hunter class heros won't bend over and die, and can continue to be any problem whatsoever.

We tried to train one hunter in my BG who was (even when being nuked by myself and my rogue) managing to disengage behind my haunt casts, still doing a lot of pressure whilst micromanaging his position relative to my rogue and his healer whilst effectively rotating his freedoms, traps etc. It's frustrating for a caster to play against such an able hunter, but personally I felt this guy deserved the win. Most average hunters would've just died - I do think a hunter needs to be amazing to secure a top 20 spot these days where many average (or worse) ele shamans, destro locks, rogues etc can achieve it quite easily.

The reason people hate you is because you're probably the class which is MOST effective when your weaknesses aren't exploited - hence the average player sees you as godlike. The average is most of the community. Painful spot to be in as far as development and balance is concerned at top end arena.




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