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#121 Touché1296682727

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 11:26 PM

i don't really agree at all. i know statistics don't always paint the entire picture, but both of the comps i mentioned are in the top 5 representation on sk-100 pretty consistently; in fact, in the bg i play in i believe the top team is tsg (the zilea/veex/valrath team) and the third place team is phdk.


According to wowarmory billians rmp is #1, but veex/valrath are both amazing.
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#122 Mitearidon

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 11:33 PM

2s is the only place I 'notice' a DK's damage.
In 3s, the damage is coming from two sources, not just the DK; I don't know how much is from the DK and how much is from the Hunter or Warrior.

Even so, in 3s, TSG's damage is completely unhealable unless you're a Paladin.


And, uh, as a Priest there isn't much to 'do wrong.' Roll Abolish, spam Cure on extra GCDs, keep Renew/ProM up, Penance when off cooldown, fake Mind Freeze and Flash Heal when possible. What more is there?


2s is so not the issue for any class anymore. Forget about it, they won't balance around that bracket ever again.

but hey, if they would balance it around 2s, guess what? DK's would need about 10 more buffs to be half viable.

Yes, DK/Paladin (and DK/Shaman to some extent) can oom some priest teams and and DK/Paladin pretty much rape double dps with their large amount of defensive cd's. But that's it. They don't compete well in the bracket due to low damage/burst on anything wearing higher armor than leather combined with the lack of MS.
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Shadowmourne is fine


All the people against it are just as biased aswell


PROTECT THE ORANGES AT ALL COST!!!

#123 Rycho

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 11:42 PM

According to wowarmory billians rmp is #1, but veex/valrath are both amazing.



yeah all the teams in the top 5 or so have been queueing this week so it changes pretty rapidly, and i agree those guys are really awesome players.

i'd just like to post one more thing regarding dk damage. here is the match report for us (double healer) vs tsg:

http://www.wowarmory...raithX&_opp=TSG

as you can see they 4-0ed us although this was a few weeks back. i don't want to argue about whether or not we should win or who has a comp advantage or whatever, you can think my team sucks if you want. my point is this:

- the warrior is training a cloth target almost all game without being hit by any cc
- we have cleanse AND abolish disease, which is pretty much a worst-case scenario for any dk in 3s that doesn't involve a shaman. i also fear the gargoyle 2-3 times each summon and we get a shackle on it once in a while.

even under these conditions, the dk (valrath) and warrior (veex) do very similar damage in every match, in one 6 minute match they are only 6k apart (393k to 387k). you can imagine the effect of our team having a frost mage or them having to attack a higher armor target, i'm sure you can find examples of these matches if you look at their history.

i just honestly don't see the complaints about dk damage as being that valid. whenever i play phdk on my other paladin, it seems like such a strong comp and a lot of it has to do with the dk putting out strong consistent damage and having the best snares and interrupts in the game. i believe a lot of these complains are more based on the fact that having your debuffs cleansed over and over again is just flat-out annoying, even if it isn't necessarily overpowered. that said, i don't actually play a dk and so i'm not an expert on some of these mechanics as some of you are.
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#124 Covlol

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 11:46 PM

yeah all the teams in the top 5 or so have been queueing this week so it changes pretty rapidly, and i agree those guys are really awesome players.

i'd just like to post one more thing regarding dk damage. here is the match report for us (double healer) vs tsg:

http://www.wowarmory...raithX&_opp=TSG

as you can see they 4-0ed us although this was a few weeks back. i don't want to argue about whether or not we should win or who has a comp advantage or whatever, you can think my team sucks if you want. my point is this:

- the warrior is training a cloth target almost all game without being hit by any cc
- we have cleanse AND abolish disease, which is pretty much a worst-case scenario for any dk in 3s that doesn't involve a shaman. i also fear the gargoyle 2-3 times each summon and we get a shackle on it once in a while.

even under these conditions, the dk (valrath) and warrior (veex) do very similar damage in every match, in one 6 minute match they are only 6k apart (393k to 387k). you can imagine the effect of our team having a frost mage or them having to attack a higher armor target, i'm sure you can find examples of these matches if you look at their history.

i just honestly don't see the complaints about dk damage as being that valid. whenever i play phdk on my other paladin, it seems like such a strong comp and a lot of it has to do with the dk putting out strong consistent damage and having the best snares and interrupts in the game. i believe a lot of these complains are more based on the fact that having your debuffs cleansed over and over again is just flat-out annoying, even if it isn't necessarily overpowered. that said, i don't actually play a dk and so i'm not an expert on some of these mechanics as some of you are.


diff is Warr dmg is all single target and meaningful dmg, the dk's is thru disease spreading and aoe, not meaningful dmg in other words.
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#125 Touché1296682727

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 11:58 PM

yeah all the teams in the top 5 or so have been queueing this week so it changes pretty rapidly, and i agree those guys are really awesome players.

i'd just like to post one more thing regarding dk damage. here is the match report for us (double healer) vs tsg:

http://www.wowarmory...raithX&_opp=TSG

as you can see they 4-0ed us although this was a few weeks back. i don't want to argue about whether or not we should win or who has a comp advantage or whatever, you can think my team sucks if you want. my point is this:

- the warrior is training a cloth target almost all game without being hit by any cc
- we have cleanse AND abolish disease, which is pretty much a worst-case scenario for any dk in 3s that doesn't involve a shaman. i also fear the gargoyle 2-3 times each summon and we get a shackle on it once in a while.

even under these conditions, the dk (valrath) and warrior (veex) do very similar damage in every match, in one 6 minute match they are only 6k apart (393k to 387k). you can imagine the effect of our team having a frost mage or them having to attack a higher armor target, i'm sure you can find examples of these matches if you look at their history.

i just honestly don't see the complaints about dk damage as being that valid. whenever i play phdk on my other paladin, it seems like such a strong comp and a lot of it has to do with the dk putting out strong consistent damage and having the best snares and interrupts in the game. i believe a lot of these complains are more based on the fact that having your debuffs cleansed over and over again is just flat-out annoying, even if it isn't necessarily overpowered. that said, i don't actually play a dk and so i'm not an expert on some of these mechanics as some of you are.


in all honesty I don't think you guys were dispelling very well.

Look at these games as double healer warr vs tsg.
http://www.wowarmory..._opp=DbW Cleave

DK is lowest in every single game.
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#126 Rycho

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 12:09 AM

in all honesty I don't think you guys were dispelling very well.

Look at these games as double healer warr vs tsg.
http://www.wowarmory..._opp=DbW Cleave

DK is lowest in every single game.



in fairness thats also probably a much lower caliber tsg team
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#127 stazzy

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 12:12 AM

phdk and tsg are both amazing strong setups, dont deny that. This change was still needed however.
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#128 Priestzor

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 11:03 AM

i am looking forward to this change. death knights are the only dps class in arena that cant kill something unless it has 40 mana and no cooldowns.
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#129 tafu

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 12:32 AM

yeah all the teams in the top 5 or so have been queueing this week so it changes pretty rapidly, and i agree those guys are really awesome players.

i'd just like to post one more thing regarding dk damage. here is the match report for us (double healer) vs tsg:

http://www.wowarmory....aithX&_opp=TSG

as you can see they 4-0ed us although this was a few weeks back. i don't want to argue about whether or not we should win or who has a comp advantage or whatever, you can think my team sucks if you want. my point is this:

- the warrior is training a cloth target almost all game without being hit by any cc
- we have cleanse AND abolish disease, which is pretty much a worst-case scenario for any dk in 3s that doesn't involve a shaman. i also fear the gargoyle 2-3 times each summon and we get a shackle on it once in a while.

even under these conditions, the dk (valrath) and warrior (veex) do very similar damage in every match, in one 6 minute match they are only 6k apart (393k to 387k). you can imagine the effect of our team having a frost mage or them having to attack a higher armor target, i'm sure you can find examples of these matches if you look at their history.

i just honestly don't see the complaints about dk damage as being that valid. whenever i play phdk on my other paladin, it seems like such a strong comp and a lot of it has to do with the dk putting out strong consistent damage and having the best snares and interrupts in the game. i believe a lot of these complains are more based on the fact that having your debuffs cleansed over and over again is just flat-out annoying, even if it isn't necessarily overpowered. that said, i don't actually play a dk and so i'm not an expert on some of these mechanics as some of you are.


So according to your statistics, the DK did as much damage as the Warrior on a cloth target.

Couple of things to note-

1. DK's don't have MS

2. New ScS does respectable damage to cloth. No DK should be complaining about damage on low armored targets.

3. You don't have a Shaman on the team. Cleansing totem is the real culprit here, and somewhat Abolish Disease but to a far lesser extent because of how DK's fair against Priest comps in general. These 2 abilities require very little upkeep/global usage and therefore enable the opposing team to mitigate huge portions of damage without really doing much at all. It gets to be a gamebreaking issue especially in 5's where you have both Priests and Shaman on virtually every team.

4. As a Paladin you are forced to choose either to heal your target or cleanse, making the decision to spend valuable globals that could cost games. Paladin cleanse, in my opinion, is perfectly balanced before the Unholy Blight change and should be the model for how cleansing mechanics should work as far as effort/reward ratios.
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#130 Sykeasaurus

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 06:03 AM

4. As a Paladin you are forced to choose either to heal your target or cleanse, making the decision to spend valuable globals that could cost games. Paladin cleanse, in my opinion, is perfectly balanced before the Unholy Blight change and should be the model for how cleansing mechanics should work as far as effort/reward ratios.


This is what I've been saying.
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I used to beat off alot, and fail all my classes



I figured he's a phony but I was secretly hoping to get pounded by someone famous.


i wasnt aware that america was a country

i guess we learn things every day


#131 Shinz

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 07:50 AM

Retard change, instead of buffing their One-target dmg + 30% resist on dispells ( LIKE EVERY1 ELSE ), they get special treatment that's not gonna effect shit. I don't see this buff working anyway wanna know why? here goes: "oke guys i haz all diseases up, time to crit this paladin! Scourgestrike crits for 1.2 FFFFFFUUUUU"
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or hit mutilate

shit was hard with like the 3 cooldowns rogues hard.... should i cloak the chaosbolt or lava burst


Cloaking chaosbolts all day err'day

#132 Grombringal

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:28 PM

They already have 30% dispel resistance (like everyone else lol!!)
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#133 Fierss

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 02:02 AM

The DK's only purpose in PHDK is to grip the squishiest person into the middle of the arena and spam Chains of Ice so the Hunter can solo it with un-healable damage. So this change won't effect PHDK much.


The fact that that's all you have to do to be viable means that there should be utility nerfs to compensate for dmg buffs.
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#134 Sevenføld

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 02:04 AM

The fact that that's all you have to do to be viable means that there should be utility nerfs to compensate for dmg buffs.


Yeah, definitely not the Hunters right?...
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#135 Fierss

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 02:09 AM

Yeah, definitely not the Hunters right?...


If they nerfed hunters and warriors, you wouldn't need a damage increase to be proportionally more competitive, so that's kind of a meaningless argument.
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#136 Dues

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 03:07 AM

If they nerfed hunters and warriors, you wouldn't need a damage increase to be proportionally more competitive, so that's kind of a meaningless argument.


You may be right, the prob is they are seemingly NOT nerfing those classes, but yes if all was fair Pallys/Priest would be nerfed down to druid/shamm levels and Hunter/Rogue/Warr/Lock/Mages would be brought down to earth.

I'd welcome either or both outcomes.
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#137 Fierss

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 03:10 AM

You may be right, the prob is they are seemingly NOT nerfing those classes, but yes if all was fair Pallys/Priest would be nerfed down to druid/shamm levels and Hunter/Rogue/Warr/Lock/Mages would be brought down to earth.

I'd welcome either or both outcomes.


People aren't complaining about DKs because they're worse than wars and hunters. They're doing it because they're hoarse and obviously falling on deaf ears. But that doesn't mean to buff other dps. That just sucks even more for other dps and all healers.
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