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3.3.3 Rogue Changes (Sub. Buffs)


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#41 Synexus

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 04:46 AM

if they don't, then those talents need some review :\

why have two talents that do the same thing in two different trees? esp. if they don't stack with the mangle/trauma raid buff

i can confirm they stack
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#42 Ragerlis

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 05:04 AM

Any news about rogues at PTR? tests/damage/etc
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#43 Morgasaurus

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 05:30 AM

Honestly caring about positional dependance is luxury IMO.

The problem remains that the entire sub build was nice for mobility... of which ShS doesn't remove movement impairing effects so it sucks.

If you have a priest dispelling you and don't care, why go sub in the first place? As "fun" as it is, it will never out damage mutilate when mobility isn't an issue with dispels.
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#44 Ashe

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 05:34 AM

why would u ever use deadly poison without master poisoner


Armor Ignoring DoT (also protects Wound if you go 3/3 Vile, 2/5 DP).

Also if you run WP/WP then you'd have no covering poisons, which means if you get kited chances are that wound will be up for more than a second vs Shaman/Druid teams is close to zero.
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#45 Lolflay

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 08:00 AM

As someone else also mentioned, ghostly strike will be pretty sweet for mutilate builds now as well.

Anyhow, they'd just need to do few more changes to finally see ShD builds on par with Envenom, like decrease energy required for backstab and actually give some god damned passive ARP to the tree to dip the plate reduction down a bit - all it needs is more damage pretty much.
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#46 Touché1296682727

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 09:42 AM

Hemo still hits like a girl.

Crit'ing the level 60 target dummy for 3900 with hemo.

Crit'ing the level 80 with hemo for 3k

Crit'ing the level80 with backstab for 5k.


Luckily though I'm crit'ing him for 7600 ambushes with shadowdance up with is like 20k dmg or something.

Sub still needs some more buffs :/
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#47 Stealth

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 11:19 AM

looking forward to try it, maybe it's good enough to bring me back to the game ;)
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#48 Guest_Shizzle_*

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 11:27 AM

wtb playing a rogue again as ShS with badass S4 swords <3
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#49 StaN

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 11:51 AM

Will still lack burst and sustained damage (crip on offhand....) in comparison to other specs and will still have very poor combo point generation. That combined with the fact SHS isnt castable when rooted you dont gain a great deal in the way of mobility compared to just playin standard muti.
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#50 polarismurf

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 04:30 PM

I'll prolly end up testing some variation of 16/0/55 since I run with a feral, and have the gold/gems to regem all agi.

Just wanted to confirm, 922 resilience is the amount to cap cheat death?

edit- http://www.wowhead.c...dhMddVzAcRt:Api

spec and glyphs linked if anyone has any input

i might drop vigor for rupture glyph, dunno

and i dropped sprint since i'll have shs with a lower cd


one issue i do have is how i'll deal with players who keep their back against a wall, since most of our team's burst will require a player's back
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#51 feit

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 04:35 PM

cap is when the dmg reduction from crits multiplied by 4 = 90%.
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#52 Ashe

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 06:36 PM

I'll prolly end up testing some variation of 16/0/55 since I run with a feral, and have the gold/gems to regem all agi.

Just wanted to confirm, 922 resilience is the amount to cap cheat death?

edit- http://www.wowhead.c...dhMddVzAcRt:Api

spec and glyphs linked if anyone has any input

i might drop vigor for rupture glyph, dunno

and i dropped sprint since i'll have shs with a lower cd


one issue i do have is how i'll deal with players who keep their back against a wall, since most of our team's burst will require a player's back

Playing with a Feral imo it will be imperative to pick up Vile & Imp Poison for DP Protection of your WP.
People really underestimate Vile Poison with DP.

Also I'm not sure if you can give Waylay up even when playing with a Feral, vs Priests and Shamans how reliable is Infected Wounds?

Something in the lines of: 19/0/52.
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#53 Razorscythe

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 06:50 PM

Guys what about Ghostly strike? Will it be a bit more useful even for mutilate rogues to get more dodge? + it does 180% dmg with daggers
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#54 Ashe

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 06:58 PM

Guys what about Ghostly strike? Will it be a bit more useful even for mutilate rogues to get more dodge? + it does 180% dmg with daggers


Of course, I'll be going for this spec if nothing changes on 3.3.3 PTR.
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#55 Kungfucow

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 07:23 PM

Wish I could afford to drop heightened senses ><.I'm pretty partial to initiative although I see a lot of rogues running 3/3 SB these days. I like being able to pop SND off of CS and still get the 4-5pt kidney in, this normally allows me to have a full 5 stack of dp up b4 kidney runs out. Obviously SND stacks your deadly up noticeably faster.

I'm not sure I find myself in situations wishing I had that extra 15% more dodge, most the time I die it's from a spellcleave if anything. Rarely do I die to melee because they are always on my mage or priest lol. The extra dmg from ghostly could be nice though.

Is the armor pen worth it over intiative?
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#56 Siqk

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 07:37 PM

this spec will be godlike with a feral druid, i hesitate to mention this fact here.

Rupture: The damage-over-time component of this ability can now produce critical strikes. +30% blood spatter +30% serrated blades + 30% mangle

90% higher rupture damage, not to mention it scales with sub's much higher AP.

feral druid has very high crit and attack speed, so HAT procs often and hemo charges get eaten up very quickly.

glyph for tott, so with filthy tricks you've got a 20s cooldown for a 10s uptime, your druid has +15% damage 50% of the time, scaling with his self +damage buff...

also sdance burst + feral burst, i'm not looking forward to trying to defend a priest against this shit


Bleedcleave ;)


Aside from doing what rexington said, these changes are pretty lack luster. The only viable sub build not involving a bleed comp would probably something to this effect: http://chardev.org/?profile=347821

Keep in mind 15% passive arp increase from mace spec reaching soft cap + runestone proc for hard cap. The gear in that profile, assuming you have access to it, would make the spec viable, and should do sufficient damage to warrant going sub. Either way, envenom damage will be greater, at least we could satisfy our craving to play ShS again given the above.

edit: you could also stack more ArP and go backstab, but in this case you would need enough passive ArP to make backstab on plate not horrible =[
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#57 Ashe

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 07:41 PM

Wish I could afford to drop heightened senses ><.I'm pretty partial to initiative although I see a lot of rogues running 3/3 SB these days. I like being able to pop SND off of CS and still get the 4-5pt kidney in, this normally allows me to have a full 5 stack of dp up b4 kidney runs out. Obviously SND stacks your deadly up noticeably faster.

Well, imo HS isn't needed in any rogue comp, but I can see it's appeal in mirrors and vs other rogue teams where you want to play sap game.

I'm not sure I find myself in situations wishing I had that extra 15% more dodge, most the time I die it's from a spellcleave if anything. Rarely do I die to melee because they are always on my mage or priest lol. The extra dmg from ghostly could be nice though.

Is the armor pen worth it over intiative?


Well as RRP, Ghostly will be quite useful since often I'm the secondary for PHD or TSG.

For RMP, not sure, but imo if you're using Serrated Blades at the moment then giving up 1 point from there in favor of Ghostly is definitely worth it.
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#58 Razorscythe

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 07:45 PM

Wish I could afford to drop heightened senses ><.I'm pretty partial to initiative although I see a lot of rogues running 3/3 SB these days. I like being able to pop SND off of CS and still get the 4-5pt kidney in, this normally allows me to have a full 5 stack of dp up b4 kidney runs out. Obviously SND stacks your deadly up noticeably faster.

I'm not sure I find myself in situations wishing I had that extra 15% more dodge, most the time I die it's from a spellcleave if anything. Rarely do I die to melee because they are always on my mage or priest lol. The extra dmg from ghostly could be nice though.

Is the armor pen worth it over intiative?

Yes but you want to dodge a rogue sitting on you with ghostly strike as much as possible
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#59 polarismurf

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 09:07 PM

Playing with a Feral imo it will be imperative to pick up Vile & Imp Poison for DP Protection of your WP.
People really underestimate Vile Poison with DP.

Also I'm not sure if you can give Waylay up even when playing with a Feral, vs Priests and Shamans how reliable is Infected Wounds?

Something in the lines of: 19/0/52.


i'm not too convinced on running dp without maxed or 4/5 imp poisons, i just dont think the application rate will be good enough

i could see myself dropping cheat death, but i dunno, i kind of like it since i'll be at the cap for max benefit

i wouldn't drop filthy tricks since it lowers the cd on shadowstep by 10 seconds

i didnt pick up waylay since i'll prolly be OH'ing crippling, and won't really use ambush outside of shadowdance

the spec you linked also picked up imp ea and puncturing wounds, but not imp evis? i dunno if you did this on purpose or not

i see the spec as hemo spam, bleeds, with sd spambush

not too sure if i would run the backstab variant since one player could just place their back against a wall and negate me and my feral's burst
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#60 Ashe

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 09:28 PM

i'm not too convinced on running dp without maxed or 4/5 imp poisons, i just dont think the application rate will be good enough

i could see myself dropping cheat death, but i dunno, i kind of like it since i'll be at the cap for max benefit

i wouldn't drop filthy tricks since it lowers the cd on shadowstep by 10 seconds

i didnt pick up waylay since i'll prolly be OH'ing crippling, and won't really use ambush outside of shadowdance

the spec you linked also picked up imp ea and puncturing wounds, but not imp evis? i dunno if you did this on purpose or not

i see the spec as hemo spam, bleeds, with sd spambush

not too sure if i would run the backstab variant since one player could just place their back against a wall and negate me and my feral's burst


Ah, I missed the Filthy Tricks change.
I picked up Imp EA since you probably want to keep it up for your feral + yourself.
Add Rupture and Kidney's and you're probably not pushing for that many Eviscerates.

But if you want to pick up Imp. EA then perhaps something like this: 19/0/51
I still maintain that you'll need DP to protect your Wound poison.
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