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Death Knight 3.3.3 Changes.


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#41 swordid

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:17 PM

[quote name='Shamanizer']What will the Chains of Ice glyph do to DKs? what will they have to replace it with.[/QUOTE

The ghoul/DC glyphs are 100% mandatory as Unholy, so basically Blizz is forcing us to replace Disease (which refreshes diseases on target when you pestilence) with the Chains. Now since most people at the moment are Chains/PS over SSing, this isn't huge a deal. People were hoping SS would be changed/fixed/buffed w/e to make it an actual useful ability, but with the underwhelming change to SS....the Chains of ICe glyph isn't as bad of a "nerf".


overall I just can't believe these notes are real. None of the numerous, smart and non overkill suggestions by the community were even considered. Instead they basically just did nothing to DK's but walk us around in a circle around the park and put us back on the same damn bench. The new SS is just as shitty as the current SS, no new disease protection, and now we have to glyph for our one main utility we bring to PHD...chains.

The SS change is just a slap in the face though. Who even runs around using SS nowadays....yet alone SSing a diseaseless target? I guess if cleansing picks off both of them instantly....cause of our shitty protection...you do? Thank god for 10% more damage on that priest you just SS'd for 1.5k anyway.
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#42 Gurren

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:18 PM

maybe ARP whoring blood will work after this.

Also everyones dots critting but death knights lol.
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#43 Trafik

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:18 PM

Endless winter change is so dumb, glyph of chains of ice sucks. The change would only be good if you didn't need to spec into it still for the mind freeze costing no runic power so you can use another 2 talent points.


This x1000.

So they made SS do more dmg with no diseases up (decent, but I think we'd all rather disease protection), and it'll still do the same dmg with all 3 diseases up? (not good to put it mildly).

And than on top of that they make us give up a major glyph spot, while not gaining any new talent points to place elsewhere, if we want our 0 RP Mind Freeze....

Don't really see these changes as much of the buff we were looking for... Hopefully, they are just the first set of PTR notes and they will give us something more substantial before they go live.

IMO, if they could just slightly buff SS dmg on a fully diseased target, and give us some mild form of disease protection I'd be happy to lose a glyph for the new CoI.
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#44 Fearful

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:19 PM

maybe ARP whoring blood will work after this.

Also everyones dots critting but death knights.

still no disease protection, won't work
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#45 Deathlygnome

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:20 PM

Erm anyone know if Mindfreeze cost 0 rp with this glyph??

Just realized this change is even more retarded then i first thought.. you still got to spec into frost for that effect.. Unless they removed it totally:confused: wouldn't suprise me :mad:


the mind freeze part wasn't changed
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#46 Sealcub

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:23 PM

Feel free to point out if I am wrong, however, at a glance, none of these are actually 'buffs' to Arena mechanics for Death Knight.

Endless Winter is an awesome talent for 2 points, up until now, it has been mandatory talent for applying Frost Fever. With the changes, a glyph now becomes mandatory for Arena, and we still most likely have to take the new talent for 0 runic power usage of Mind Freeze.

Lichborne and Icy Reach are so good we pretty much have to go down that tree regardless. Overall net change the talents allocation is nothing? Again, please share your findings, perhaps I am missing something vital here.

Regarding Scourge Strike it is not a buff. Nexim-EU is spot on. The strike is more or less approaching to become just like Obliterate. What's going on, Ghostcrawler? When there are no diseases Obliterate actually hits harder.

The PvE/Raid buffs are nice though.
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#47 Thoreck

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:24 PM

I did not read every post but if you crunch the numbers the ss "buff" is actually around a 10% nerf with all three diseases up. So unless you were a retard before this and hit ss with less than 3 diseases up you will see a small gain, otherwise it is a nerf. This combined with losing a glyph slot for 4% str and the same utility equals blizzard is honestly being run by a pack of window licking monkeys.
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#48 jrhowson

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:25 PM

Feel free to point out if I am wrong, however, at a glance, none of these are actually 'buffs' to Arena mechanics for Death Knight.

Endless Winter is an awesome talent for 2 points, up until now, it has been mandatory talent for applying Frost Fever. With the changes, a glyph now becomes mandatory for Arena, and we still most likely have to take the new talent for 0 runic power usage of Mind Freeze.

Lichborne and Icy Reach are so good we pretty much have to go down that tree regardless. Overall net change the talents allocation is nothing? Again, please share your findings, perhaps I am missing something vital here.

Regarding Scourge Strike it is not a buff. Nexim-EU is spot on. The strike is more or less approaching to become just like Obliterate. What's going on, Ghostcrawler? When there are no diseases Obliterate actually hits harder.

The PvE/Raid buffs are nice though.



Pretty much my thoughts we gain pretty much nothing 4% str vs whatever glyph slot we lose, not even gonna bother discussing the new SS change it's not worth it.
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#49 Eliaegl

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:26 PM

Talented:
3.3.3 = 65% physical + 49% shadow = 114%
3.3.4 = 91% physical + 33% shadow = 124%

10% more weapon damage but... 26% more damage mitigated by armor.
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#50

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:27 PM

I did not read every post but if you crunch the numbers the ss "buff" is actually around a 10% nerf with all three diseases up.

Numbers anywhere? Mine says it's a slight but net buff in PvP settings especially if you somehow play in UP, while being roughly the same -newest one still has better scaling- when considering raid buffs and BP double dipping etc.

You need no more than 13XX normalized weapon damage in order to have a better SS in all situations in PvP settings. more or less~ did that off the top of my head with simple notepad so i might be wrong but i'm pretty confident i'm still able to do basic maths without the help of my spreadsheets.

Talented:
3.3.3 = 65% physical + 49% shadow = 114%
3.3.4 = 91% physical + 33% shadow = 124%

10% more weapon damage but... 26% more damage mitigated by armor.


Your shadow damage is affected by armor just the same as physical damage.
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#51 Feya

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:34 PM

This change, while not good, allows a number of things;

1. It lets UH DK's sub spec into blood for bladed armour and subversion (not sure about 2h wep spec) at the cost of unholy talents.

2. It lets UH DK's spec into more DPS oriented abilities in unholy (desolation + one free point).

3. It allows Blood DK's to get improved death grip.

Over all its just an option opener at the cost of a glyph slot (as the new CoI glyph is 100% mandatory in PvP) and free mind freezes.
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#52 swordid

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:35 PM

Regardless of the actual % change to SS. This patch is nothing good. Period.

They buffed mages, shamans, warlocks. While doing nothing to warriors and hunters. And what did we get? Nothing. DK tanking threat was buffed, a failed attempt to have DW frost = Unholy in PVE, and PVP nerfs.

So what we have PHD/TSG? We have 2 comps that are decent, and overall DK was the lowest glad class last season. Until Blizzard addresses any of our major issues...DK will continue to be a chain spamming joke for hunters.

1) SS Damage is crap for a 2 rune finishing ability
2) Disease protection is a joke.
3) 17 points in frost for what boils down to 5 useful points
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#53 jrhowson

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:35 PM

Still need 0 rp mind freezes and lichborne so subspeccing blood really isn't much of an option in my view.
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#54 Nex

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:37 PM

Talented:
3.3.3 = 65% physical + 49% shadow = 114%
3.3.4 = 91% physical + 33% shadow = 124%

10% more weapon damage but... 26% more damage mitigated by armor.

There is no change in mitigation by armor, ScS can be considered a full physical attack. The physical portion is effected by armor, and then in turn the magical portion relies on the physical damage done so it is ALSO effected by armor, although indirectly. ScS is, judging by the PTR notes, a compy of obliterate, only weaker. ScS only passes Obliterate if you puck up other tlanets to boost it. Which begs the question, why not just have those talents effecting obliterate and make ScS actually unique? You know, dealing shadow damage, like it used to.

Those shadow portions are effected twice by several talents. Asuming the Y in X%+Y increases the damage will be the same before as after on a target with 3 diseases. The problem here is that even with 3 diseases, on a low armor target, ScS is barely useful at all. This won't change at all.
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57 post deletes and a few bans and a few infractions. Keep it up and the punishment will keep coming. The anti-DK shit isn't cool or funny, its just obnoxious. Discuss the topic without being total shitheads please.


#55 Nînn1296679912

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:44 PM

http://www.wowhead.c...MGI00bgfuz0ucqo

youve got the lichborne, important uh talents and a little into blood.. will it do any difference with the extra AP etc?
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#56 Lawdyx

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:46 PM

http://www.wowhead.c...MGI00bgfuz0ucqo

youve got the lichborne, important uh talents and a little into blood.. will it do any difference with the extra AP etc?


yeah the extra 400(?) ap finally bring the long awaited changes dks needed
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#57 Xelithras

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:47 PM

if this patch hits live without any changes to the current PTR notes, i'll probably just stick to the same spec and replace glyph of the ghoul with CoI.... cant really drop Disease would ruin totally my playstyle, and also dropping 0 RP mind freezes is not an option for me, since it would actually cost quite a bit on deathcoil bursts (well burst attempts)
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#58

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:49 PM

You gain nearly half as much ap by getting the 4% extra str from EW than getting 4 points in bladed armor. Blood sub-specs are still not real options.

Making Endless Winter baseline -or glyph, w/e- is a good choice in the long run, but a lot more talents could/should go that way. 0 rp mind freeze, Icy Reach and Lichborne are prime examples.
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#59 Thoreck

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:54 PM

Take an average listed weapon damage of 3,000 and compare the two versions.

Current version fully talented is 60% weapon damage + 576 with 25% per disease as shadow.

3000 x .6 = 1800 + 576 = 2376 physical
2376 x .75 = 1782 x 1.23 (10% from black ice + 13% from ebon plaguebringer) = 2192 shadow
2376 + 2192 = 4568 total damage

New version fully talented is 84% weapon damage + 576 with 12% per disease as shadow.

3000 x .84 = 2520 + 576 = 3096 physical
3096 x 36 = 1115 x 1.23 = 1371 shadow
3096 + 1371 = 4467 total damage

TLDR version is current version = 4568 vs 4467 for the new version. Not the 10% I said earlier but I was using only 1000 base damage which came out to 2260 vs 2043 or roughly 10%.
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#60 Elraen

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:58 PM

The glyph change is a right thing to do, whether it nerfs DKs or not. Having to put 17 points in the Frost tree whatever your spec is is pretty retarded tbh.


That's the problem-JUST changing FF to be applied through the glyph of chains didn't address:

-some DKs wanting to subspec deeper into blood as a result of not having to spec into RW (ie-as deep as dark conviction)
-still having to pick up lichborne
-picking up endless winter for 0 RP mind freeze

I kinda had this hunch that rather than address disease cleanse problem, they'd just buff the base damage. I almost made a post about it in the "ArP ScS" thread but I thought surely they're not that short-sighted. I was wrong =/ Rather than actually buffing the strike and giving us disease protection, though, they copped out and did a half "fix" that doesn't even qualify as an adjustment-just more of a reallocation of the damage.
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