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Earth shield becoming useless?


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#21 nub0rn

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 12:05 AM

My bad, mixed up those two abilities. It doesn't change what I said though, 31 point soulwell is unremovable where's 31 point mana tide totem can be 1 shotted by a lvl 1 mage stave before its had time to proc once (you got full 3 seconds to do this which is enough for double GCD). As for priests not having no additional defense what the hell are you on about? You have prayer of mending/renew/PW:shield/blessed resilience/15% resistance to stuns (orc racial :D) and fear. But fear isnt that common in pvp anyway right/recover health when getting crit/extra armor from inner fire. No defenses?

And yes, I know a lot of those abilities are subject to being dispelled, but at least during pain suppression you're very hard to dispell, where's with earth shield its subject to dispell 100% of the time. And against teams that cant dispell? You have the same advantages as me.

One last thing: While a lot of your defenses are vulnerable to purge, 60% of my tricks can be negated by EVERY CLASS by simply walking up to my totem and whacking it. Not 5/9, but 9/9. So yeah, when I invest 41 talents into a buff I'd expect to be able to use it from time to time.


First off, as you stated yourself, all of this is dispellable. Additionally you can'T have blessed resilience and pain supression at the same time. I can't see you choosing between either mail, shield, earth shield and natures guardian? Also only one of them is dispellable. And please don't count my heals as being "defense" since those are two pair of shoes.

You want an ultimate you can use more often? Well I want an ultimate worth speccing in the first place...


I find it strange that while WF, tremor, grounding are oh so expensive to recast, shamans usually last longer than me...
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#22 Slappywag

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 03:35 AM

I don't think Earth Shield is the only reason resto Shamans spec restoration for arena, and if so they're not very smart.

But yeah, personally I think it could use some improvements, though any improvements outside of making it harder to dispel (such as mana, etc) would unbalance it for PVE, though if it was unable to be dispelled it would be overpowered IMO.
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#23 Dorain

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 03:55 AM

Earth Shield really isn't the only reason that a shaman specs resto, it's more the overall increased survivability and ability to keep your teammates up fairly well and synergy with others that draws people to the spec. I would absolutely LOVE it if them ES was dispelled it healed the wearer for a set amount, say, about a healing wave's worth.

If Earth Shield is dispelled by a class that isn't a warlock or mage, I generally leave it off of me or my teammates and chain water shields. the two procs before it's dispelled aren't worth the 900 mana unless it's a rather desperate situation.
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#24 Eve

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 05:03 AM

Priest can dispell in shadowform, somehow its not counted as a holy trick. Some stuff about school and disi being a subform of holy bla bla bla, but they can disp :)


No.

Schools and Trees are 2 different things. We have disc, holy, and shadow trees. Holy and shadow schools. Shield, dispel, fort, spirit, inner fire all count as things in the holy school but since they're in the disc tree they're still castable in shadowform.
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#25 Yothga

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 10:09 AM

Earthshield is fine, totems are not.

my 2c
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#26 Grup

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 06:10 PM

Priests, paladins, and druids will all benefit more from the +damage to healing buff than shaman will.
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#27 Solitary

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Posted 29 October 2007 - 11:44 PM

Priests, paladins, and druids will all benefit more from the +damage to healing buff than shaman will.


I disagree. Look at ret paladins they took all of the spell damage off. What damage spells do druids really have the opportunity to cast in arenas?

Priests and Shamans with benefit the most from it. Priests get a benefit on mana burn/death, only the death really matters though as I'm not even sure MB gets +dmg and death would be used to possibly finish a 1-10% target off. Shamans get benefit with max rank ES which can be used to finish off a target or to add more pressure on the healer if you choose to interrupt with max rank instead. Additionally shamans will have the chance to NS a CL for about 1000 dmg as well to help burst someone down if its available. (I.e.) Opponents mage is at 10% his teammate is blinded but my rogue is sheeped. Max Rank ES + NS CL = dead mage.


Anyways, that's my personal view on the extra +dmg.
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#28 Keline

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Posted 29 October 2007 - 11:55 PM

Honestly, 41 point talents that can be removed with a 150 mana dispell and cost a fuckton of mana to cast / have a terribly long cooldown are just plain bad design.
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#29 Solitary

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 12:47 AM

Honestly, 41 point talents that can be removed with a 150 mana dispell and cost a fuckton of mana to cast / have a terribly long cooldown are just plain bad design.


ES has no cooldown, fuckton of mana, yes.

I agree it being dispellable isn't perfect design, and it should be buffed somehow. (Possibly non dispellable, possibly have to dispel each individual charge, who knows.)

But, the point of the thread was saying it was useless and isn't worth speccing 41 points for it. Personally I have trouble only using 54 in resto, I'd prefer putting 59 in it, and picking up cheaper totems, ES will be worth the one point it takes, probably forever.
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#30 Grup

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 02:09 AM

I disagree. Look at ret paladins they took all of the spell damage off. What damage spells do druids really have the opportunity to cast in arenas?

Priests and Shamans with benefit the most from it. Priests get a benefit on mana burn/death, only the death really matters though as I'm not even sure MB gets +dmg and death would be used to possibly finish a 1-10% target off. Shamans get benefit with max rank ES which can be used to finish off a target or to add more pressure on the healer if you choose to interrupt with max rank instead. Additionally shamans will have the chance to NS a CL for about 1000 dmg as well to help burst someone down if its available. (I.e.) Opponents mage is at 10% his teammate is blinded but my rogue is sheeped. Max Rank ES + NS CL = dead mage.


Anyways, that's my personal view on the extra +dmg.


Spamming moonfire > 6 second shocks to finish someone off. You can't really say "NS CL" because the druid can say "NS wrath" and do similar damage. A paladin has holy shock and judgements they can use as well, blowing NS LB and not finishing someone off can be devastating. A priest has mind blast, SW: Death, SWP, all scale with damage, I also play a 70 holy priest and I am certain my priest will benefit more than my shaman. Really in most games we will need our NS for a heal, so now our damage comes from shocks, which are important for utility so we can't go mindlessly wasting it every opportunity.
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#31 Plaga

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 02:54 AM

IMO ES is fine in its current state just be sure to have a lot of silly little buffs like water breathing. Also, with 2.3 even with ES being dispellable resto should be a very strong spec.
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#32 Solitary

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:33 AM

Even with little silly buffs its ridiculously easy to get rid of, especially in lower brackets where you ONLY have ES and waterbreathing (at least for me, I play with rogues and warriors in smaller brackets.) Removed in 1 purge or dispel magic.

And resto should still be a very strong spec, imho it already is a very strong spec.


Now to the spell damage ideas.

Spamming moonfire > 6 second shocks to finish someone off. You can't really say "NS CL" because the druid can say "NS wrath" and do similar damage. A paladin has holy shock and judgements they can use as well, blowing NS LB and not finishing someone off can be devastating. A priest has mind blast, SW: Death, SWP, all scale with damage, I also play a 70 holy priest and I am certain my priest will benefit more than my shaman. Really in most games we will need our NS for a heal, so now our damage comes from shocks, which are important for utility so we can't go mindlessly wasting it every opportunity.


Spamming moonfire isn't something someone would ever realistically do..... don't forget moonfire shares the coefficent with the DoT part. It would just be a waste of mana, and isn't an effective instant damage spell (ask any druid).

Holy shock, does a lot less dmg than Earth Shock, and judgements still won't be used often....... not to mention the removal of spell damage on the ret set leads me to believe spell damage won't be all that useful to paladins in general anyway for damage.

Mind Blast--- forgot about mindblast, again, mana issue. I don't expect many priests try helping finish a target with a castable spell, especially because a lot of the time they are the focus'd target, and if they're not they're doing their best to mana burn not kill. Death I already conceded, spell damage being useful to them there as it is to us with Earth Shock. SWP: sure useful, again costs mana for little return, even with buffed spell damage. I only forsee healers making use of their extra spell damage in a use it or they don't die scenerio because losing the mana battle for a little bit of extra swp damage doesn't make sense.

Overall I think its going to be more balanced than you claim saying Shamans get the short end of the stick, and using NS CL/LB wasn't something I think would be done often, but if you had NS up and the target was running at 4%, and your DPS had no way of catching him, you'd use it too[shock is down]. Shamans have the more offensive spells of the 'healers.' I do think it tends to favor priests and shamans more than druids however.

But, in the end we'll just have to wait and see next patch.
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#33 Grup

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 04:38 AM

Even with little silly buffs its ridiculously easy to get rid of, especially in lower brackets where you ONLY have ES and waterbreathing (at least for me, I play with rogues and warriors in smaller brackets.) Removed in 1 purge or dispel magic.

And resto should still be a very strong spec, imho it already is a very strong spec.


Now to the spell damage ideas.



Spamming moonfire isn't something someone would ever realistically do..... don't forget moonfire shares the coefficent with the DoT part. It would just be a waste of mana, and isn't an effective instant damage spell (ask any druid).

Holy shock, does a lot less dmg than Earth Shock, and judgements still won't be used often....... not to mention the removal of spell damage on the ret set leads me to believe spell damage won't be all that useful to paladins in general anyway for damage.

Mind Blast--- forgot about mindblast, again, mana issue. I don't expect many priests try helping finish a target with a castable spell, especially because a lot of the time they are the focus'd target, and if they're not they're doing their best to mana burn not kill. Death I already conceded, spell damage being useful to them there as it is to us with Earth Shock. SWP: sure useful, again costs mana for little return, even with buffed spell damage. I only forsee healers making use of their extra spell damage in a use it or they don't die scenerio because losing the mana battle for a little bit of extra swp damage doesn't make sense.

Overall I think its going to be more balanced than you claim saying Shamans get the short end of the stick, and using NS CL/LB wasn't something I think would be done often, but if you had NS up and the target was running at 4%, and your DPS had no way of catching him, you'd use it too[shock is down]. Shamans have the more offensive spells of the 'healers.' I do think it tends to favor priests and shamans more than druids however.

But, in the end we'll just have to wait and see next patch.


I have had druids on 2300-2400 rated teams moonfire me near my death to help finish me off, especially with a rogue on me, I think you are underestimating the ability to spam a spell knowing I can't outheal the DPS at that point. Moonfire spam is simply more damage output, which is my point, none of these are efficient spells, they're used to help finish someone. A priest has to sacrifice 1.5 seconds to cast a mind blast, but we also sacrifice a 1.5 second global cooldown shocking someone, and also lose the ability to shock that fear that's coming right at us from their partner, each spell has its downside. I just theoretically see shaman having the least damage gain from this, because there are times where you really want to go all out, but NS is down, so you shock once, wait 6 seconds, shock again, etc, this is especially true against two DPS teams.
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