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Rank 1 Hunters and Representation


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#41 Loincloth

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:12 AM

Hunters need to look at themselves from another class' point of view. Hunter's obviously do have problems, but are very viable.

One thing that needs to be changed is hunter damage. The reason hunters are targeted every match is because of the amount of damage they can put out if not cc'd or attacked. A hunter alone can kill a target alone even if a paladin is spamming holy lights with no interupts.

Buff hunter's survivability slightly and reduce their damage a lot.


Are you kidding with this or do you just play against level 70 paladins....
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#42 Lyricalz

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:22 AM

A hunter alone can kill a target alone even if a paladin is spamming holy lights with no interupts.


Yep this is a pretty ignorant post...
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#43 Tammyaway

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:33 AM

A hunter alone can kill a target alone even if a paladin is spamming holy lights with no interupts.


I call bullshit.
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#44 Citrius

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:49 AM

I just dont think you hunters gets it at all.
Sure, alot of the damage is OP right now.
What ALLof you does not seem to understand is that hunters damage can not be interrupted in the same way the classes you claim to be doing the same dps as you :shaman::warlock::mage:, these classes can be LOSED, also interrupted.

Hunters right now works like a ranged arms warrior.
You say ''just LOS and we cant do anything'', what you in this case need to do is look at this from an Arena POV.
The damage from a hunter is not high compared to other classes, this is 100% right, but my point is that there is no class that can do the same damage as a freecasting :mage::shaman::warlock: without acctualy casting anything.

Hunters has pmuch always been good in pvp, and the BC state of hunter was good because a hunter could not do good damage unless theya ctually stood still and channeled aimed shot and a few other stuff.
The thing now is that this does not exist whatsoever anymore, the other melee classes :rogue::warrior::deathknight: is noncomparable to hunters in a way that they can all be KITED, you cannot ever be kited since youre damage is ranged.
Getting away from hunters is in no way what it is to get away from the other melees, you have all the slows you need and if played right you have a couple of ways to avoid all cc's etc also.

I would be fine with the current state of the hunter damage if they gave some of the abilitys channel time and not just making them hit like a truck on anything in LOS.

I hope i will not get to much hate for this but from what i read from hunter POV saying stuff like ''you can just los and then kill us in a deep freeze''.

Other classes like :rogue::warrior: knows that their damage is OP if used right, and you cannot at all say that its easy to avoid hunters with stuns/blind/disarm, after all the :rogue: cds are gone, there is noway ever ever for a rogue to get to a hunter to do abilitys like these.

I have not even spoken about the CC, i would certantly say that for most clothies its worse having a warrior on you, because they are unkiteable and they can stick to you until you are dead.
Hunters do as much damage as warriors atm and none of that damage should ever come out from a melee dps, but warriors does not have any CC at all.
A hunter has everything he needs to kill someone(as much damage as a freecasting spellcaster)Plus the instant CC.
No other class has the same kind of way to do instant CC like a hunter.

And complaining about getting kited sure, i know LOS hurts you, but i dont quite get what you all mean by saying ''just los hunters and its gg''.
There is no way to score a kill if you just LOS the hunter for a whole game.

The changes for hunters that i would like to see is that they made the damage that they are capable of ONLY capable while channeling Aimed shot and other abilitys like that.
I think in that way then yes, you can be compared to other op damage classes :shaman::warlock::mage:, because of the chenneling.

Representation is nothing about skill imo, It just shows how popular certain classes are.

And for you hunters, try watching hunters from another classes POV for a change, how easy is it RLY to los that damage with frost trap and disengage?


---------------
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#45 Nabla

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:53 AM

^ this
I was too lazy to make a post like that, but you explained everything.
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#46 Ahti

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 03:15 AM

Spoiler


I agree with a lot of what you say actually. I expanded my last post to kind of address the fallacy in thinking that LoS is the cure-all way to counter hunters. I'd like to point out though that when we're forced to go on the defensive we often lose the luxury of putting every GCD into damage, and instead we're forced to spend a considerable amount of our attention/abilities on how we're going to create space and survive. I think we're also more susceptible to stuns than other classes are, on account that we have nothing other than intervene/RoS and our teammates to assist us during a full kidney. Most of our defensive abilities (feign death, silencing shot, deterrence, scatter shot) will all require us to be within control of our character. Keep in mind, I'm not using this argument to say that our class is easily countered, but rather that there are possible strategies to set up a kill on a hunter.

In terms of damage, I agree that we do way too much damage on mages. Which I'm sure is where most of the strife coming from every mage to post here stems from. It's simply too easy to kill a mage in a silencing shot between frost barrier CD's. But on the other side I think our damage is mitigated a little too much by plate. So while it'll appear that we do way too much damage to you, other classes might have the opposite reaction. I think finding some way to balance our damage so it's consistent across all classes would be the only change I'd like consider in terms of damage.

+rep for being the first mage to post on the hunter forums that didn't make me want to gouge my eyes out.
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#47 Getrugged

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 03:16 AM

I just dont think you hunters gets it at all.
Sure, alot of the damage is OP right now.
What ALLof you does not seem to understand is that hunters damage can not be interrupted in the same way the classes you claim to be doing the same dps as you :shaman::warlock::mage:, these classes can be LOSED, also interrupted.


We will never do the same damage (unless maybe on a mage) to any of these classes freecasting, nor will we ever be as dangerous left alone as any of those classes. And the fact that those 3 classes are all trained says that, because we try to shut them down. Thats what you do to hunter, you shut him down via stuns/deadzones/and coordinate switches, not just rambo it up in the middle of a map against a free casting hunter

Hunters right now works like a ranged arms warrior.


I wish we had the ability to chase behind pillars, solo healers and kill everything on the team in 6 seconds

You say ''just LOS and we cant do anything'', what you in this case need to do is look at this from an Arena POV.
The damage from a hunter is not high compared to other classes, this is 100% right, but my point is that there is no class that can do the same damage as a freecasting :mage::shaman::warlock: without acctualy casting anything.


Different classes are different. We dont have any spammable CC, we rely on 2 debuffs being up (serpent and hunters mark), and we have our own strengths and weaknesses. Our shots being instead (excluding steady ofc) is one of our strengths, as it allows fluidity in our plan. Our susceptability to gibs in stuns/disarms is our weakness, use it.

Hunters has pmuch always been good in pvp, and the BC state of hunter was good because a hunter could not do good damage unless theya ctually stood still and channeled aimed shot and a few other stuff.
The thing now is that this does not exist whatsoever anymore, the other melee classes :rogue::warrior::deathknight: is noncomparable to hunters in a way that they can all be KITED, you cannot ever be kited since youre damage is ranged.


No, we really havent =/. In BC we sucked, and in s6 we werent very good either. :rogue::warrior::deathknight: is noncomparable to hunters because of the fact they are a ROGUE, A WARRIOR AND A DEATHKNIGHT. THey are a different class. We dont have the ability to lock something down like a rogue does, or have the infinite resources like a warrior, or do aoe damage like a DK (yes dk's suck now, w/e). They can be kited, we can be deadzoned and pillar'd. Different classes have different mechanics and are different, ground breaking stuff

Getting away from hunters is in no way what it is to get away from the other melees, you have all the slows you need and if played right you have a couple of ways to avoid all cc's etc also.


we have 2 slows (frost trap, which means we cant use freezing trap to CC) and concussive shot which is a shit 3 second slow. Dont even say wing clip, because that means we'd have to get into melee ranged, and to get out of it, we'd need to blow masters call just so we can get a shitty snare on you. Believe it or not, a hunter can be kited, and a hunter can be cc or trained to shut him down. All you need is team coordination.

I would be fine with the current state of the hunter damage if they gave some of the abilitys channel time and not just making them hit like a truck on anything in LOS.


channeled abilities --> hunters go back to tbc status, not being able to get off ANY damage if trained, aswell as not having the defenses to cope when being trained, so all we are is a mana sink who cant do anything. Not gonna happen

I hope i will not get to much hate for this but from what i read from hunter POV saying stuff like ''you can just los and then kill us in a deep freeze''.


Hunters counter mages, u will always be in trouble verse a marks hunter. But, there are things u can do. You kite and play gay when the hunter is free, and when he is stunned/disarmed/cc'd is when u come out, and thats when u apply the offensive pressure and force the hunter to pillar/deterence/etc

Other classes like :rogue::warrior: knows that their damage is OP if used right, and you cannot at all say that its easy to avoid hunters with stuns/blind/disarm, after all the :rogue: cds are gone, there is noway ever ever for a rogue to get to a hunter to do abilitys like these.


Different classes are different. Rogue is more of a support class nowadays, and its balanced around locking someone down while its caster partner fucks it up, or just straight cd zerging something. A hunter cant kill a healer in 3 seconds, nor can a hunter team get the opening pressure like a rogue team can, just like rogues dont have the late game pressure a hunter does. I reiterate again, different classes are different. Oh, and in a 2v2 scenario, a rogue can play gay forever and always catch a hunter. When rogue is out of cd's, he pillars forever till they come back and he gets a stealth off. if hunter DARES to follow him behind the pillar, he gets blown up out of los. There are many ways of doing this, and good rogues will abuse the fuck out of hunters weakness of chasing.

I have not even spoken about the CC


you mean our clunky as shit cc, which requires us to use scatter shot, which requires not using frost trap either, while we hope it doesant get resisted, or one of his partners doesant intervene it, or simply walk on top of it. Do you mean that "cc"?

i would certantly say that for most clothies its worse having a warrior on you, because they are unkiteable and they can stick to you until you are dead.
Hunters do as much damage as warriors atm and none of that damage should ever come out from a melee dps, but warriors does not have any CC at all.
A hunter has everything he needs to kill someone(as much damage as a freecasting spellcaster)Plus the instant CC.
No other class has the same kind of way to do instant CC like a hunter.


No, we really dont do as much damage as a warrior, nor do we have as much as a freecasting spellcaster, nor do we have the spammable cc that a "freecasting spellcaster" has. Our cc is fucking terrible. If you take cc in anything other than 2v2 from a hunter, your team is bad. there are SO many things that will waste freezing traps: stun him, disarm him, silence him, simply walk over and eat the trap, fear him, sheep him, typhoon/thunderstorm him to make him lose his positioning, all of those work just fine. And like i said, using freezing trap means we lose frost trap and scatter shot

And complaining about getting kited sure, i know LOS hurts you, but i dont quite get what you all mean by saying ''just los hunters and its gg''.
There is no way to score a kill if you just LOS the hunter for a whole game.


You los, you come out when you have cd's, or when the hunter is cc'd or stunned, dont play stupid. Use team coordination. This isnt a 1v1 scenario, you have teammates

The changes for hunters that i would like to see is that they made the damage that they are capable of ONLY capable while channeling Aimed shot and other abilitys like that.


Back to tbc rep with this mentallity. We had that once, and it was terrible, so no, it isnt going to happen. Blizzard already said they wanted us more fluid.

I think in that way then yes, you can be compared to other op damage classes :shaman::warlock::mage:, because of the chenneling.


Except we have no spammable CC, we have no way of healing ourselves, we have no absorbs, but cool, thanks for that. Im sure we'll be back to 1% rep in no time!

Representation is nothing about skill imo, It just shows how popular certain classes are.


You can normalize rep per the amount of people playing the class. So no, it is accurate. Its basic maths really

And for you hunters, try watching hunters from another classes POV for a change, how easy is it RLY to los that damage with frost trap and disengage?


If frost trap is down, your healer can heal you via it since he is likely not cc'd. Or maybe you can umm..do that damage back to us? we know we counter mages, but that doesant mean heavy plate and affliction warlocks e dont counter the shit out of us. This is a 3v3 game afterall, so it all depends on your teammates and ours, you cant theorycraft so easily. Use your partners strengths to fuck up hunters weaknesses, and exploit it. Its why arena isnt 1v1...
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#48 Tammyaway

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 03:29 AM

Very nice reply Bulrug +rep.

Though personally I wouldn't bother replying to people who still think we were fine in TBC + that representation is just a popularity contest (we covered it in another thread why this argument is REMARKABLY stupid).

Edit - Just noticed it was Bulrug posting :P
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#49 Citrius

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 03:41 AM

ok nvm i give up, you hunters just will never get it i guess.
And do you HONESTLY think that a hunter freecasting on a mage can ''Or maybe you can umm..do that damage back to us?''

Jesus christ you are one stupid fuck

In all of your replys pretty much you tell me that its easy if i coordinate with my teammates, okay so if you lay down a frost trap there is no CC on the healer that can heal me, not only does he have to SPAM heal me if ur on me for 2 globals, but you have a ARENA partner aswell don't you?
If you lay down a frost trap so nothing can get away and tell your partner to do some kind of CC to the healer.

Was going to continue this but nvm, you just dont get it.
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#50 Konfucius

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:08 AM

blizzard probably forgot that they buffed ranged weapons when they released new ammo. gg hunter damage
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#51 Xonkk

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:16 AM

blizzard probably forgot that they buffed ranged weapons when they released new ammo. gg hunter damage


New ammo has a big part in why hunters do so much damage now.
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#52 Loincloth

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:19 AM

hy guys im just posting in this thread so you can see my signature.

it says alot about how hunters are in pvp atm imo.


Just because one hunter got a title he might not deserve doesnt mean all hunters are bad. One statement by one person sure does reflect on the sentiments and quality of hundreds of people just because they happen to play the same class right?
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#53 Getrugged

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:41 AM

ok nvm i give up, you hunters just will never get it i guess.
And do you HONESTLY think that a hunter freecasting on a mage can ''Or maybe you can umm..do that damage back to us?''

Jesus christ you are one stupid fuck

In all of your replys pretty much you tell me that its easy if i coordinate with my teammates, okay so if you lay down a frost trap there is no CC on the healer that can heal me, not only does he have to SPAM heal me if ur on me for 2 globals, but you have a ARENA partner aswell don't you?
If you lay down a frost trap so nothing can get away and tell your partner to do some kind of CC to the healer.

Was going to continue this but nvm, you just dont get it.


In a hunter verse hunter match, us hunters take more damage against each other than any other class can do to us. Do you know what i tell my healer? i tell him to give me a shield, pain suppress me and smite spam the shit out of him and blow him the fuck up. And he dies in seconds. Hunters are very susceptably from multiple targets, as we can only shut down 1 due to not having any spammable cc. There is more things to do then just run around thinking your defenceless and going to lose anyway. My team (marks-enhance-priest), counters the shit out of RMP, yet the good RMP's (houndus and complexity) both have winning records against me. You know why? despite the fact that they are better players, their whole team plays INCREDIBLY offensive, and i struggle to live(and usually die after 30 or so seconds). With the rogue popping cd's into me, the Priest is PI bursting me, im using readiness on double deterence, to keep down frost traps, flares 100% of the time, try to maintain any distance i have and silence any frostbolts/icelances on me. They make the pressure which makes me barely even able to keep up serpent sting. Maybe u and your teammates could try this, instead of going in with such a defensive and "game already over" mindset
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#54 slrut

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 05:25 AM

buff hunters imo
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#55 Nabla

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 06:22 AM

i tell him to give me a shield, pain suppress me and smite spam the shit out of him and blow him the fuck up. And he dies in seconds. Hunters are very susceptably from multiple targets, as we can only shut down 1 due to not having any spammable cc.

Right, cause there are some classes that are not susceptible to damage from multiple targets ? Bullshit.
Can you remind me whats the spammable CC of the shaman ?
We do agree on one thing tho, each classe is and should be different, can't rly compare.

Maybe u and your teammates could try this, instead of going in with such a defensive and "game already over" mindset


Damn, you guys have to choose, I thought LOSing the shit of the hunter was the miracle solution.
Again, going all out works against any class, the warrior will go swoard and board, the rogue will vanish, the mage will freak out and do nothing, etc...
What you're telling us is that really good player that are able to put a lot of pressure can win. No shit...
So, if I follow you, hunters are fine because if ure amazing ull win. Sorry but that's the definition of overpowered. Again, I'm only talking from mage point of view, I don't care about your damage on plate, maybe it should be fixed, maybe not, idk.

Anyway, I think it's a dead end. Cynx was much more patient than me but you guys didnt listen to him and all went like NO WAI WERE FINE L2LOS U IDIOT
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#56 Reckful

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 06:26 AM

how can you say "rogues, mages, and priests are all SIGNIFICANTLY higher"

there are 6 hunters
there are *7* rogues and priests (omfg!)
8 mages

so significant

edit: btw hunters are op
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#57 Schlotzsky

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 06:30 AM

Look at EU and then add that to your totals. That is your answer.
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#58 Reckful

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 06:32 AM

ah

hunters are the most OP class in the game though
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#59 Getrugged

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 06:34 AM

ah

hunters are the most OP class in the game though


yeh they just all need to l2play right? unlike those pesky rogues, mages and priests, who just happened to be skilled, while all the bads rolled hunters
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#60 Recline

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 06:35 AM

get hunters outa here
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