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Envenom demystification


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#21 qedqed

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:46 PM

@OP
Did you double dip crit reduction with regular reduction?

It looks that way.


It is that way. "... Provides X% additional damage reduction against all damage done by players ...".

All means all. Even with my bad english the tooltip seems pretty clear.
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#22 Panzerkampf

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:39 PM

I have been hit with a 10K envenom in a kidney shot against Rogue/Lock/Shaman when I was floating around 40% health. I'm not making this up to bitch or whine, but it killed me. It was 8K with a 2K overkill.

Wish I had screenshotted it for proof.

However the majority of envenoms crit me for 6k-8k.


like people have mentioned, curse of shadows/elements/whatever, but also consider imp.kidney and possibly berserker stance.
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#23 CadaverousDK

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:56 PM

Been running envenom with Feral/H4B Rogue/Shaman today and i think the highest crit i saw all night was on Powerslaves shaman for like 7.9k with DC proc and under 35%.
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#24 rinnx

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:22 PM

Rogues are OP as hell atm.



destroyed the 2v2 bracket for me.




..........
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#25 Aasgeir

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 12:28 AM

The deadly poison buff has overwritten all other poison combinations. In other words, if you aren't using Wound/Deadly your gimping your damage. The proc rate on your Wound weapon is about the same as running Wound/Wound.

So its near as damn the same damage + a powerful dot and most importantly you keep MS and Crippling on the target.

Therefore everyone is turning to envenom. Not because it got "OMFG BUFFED TO HELL" but because it wasn't possible before. Not having Wound/Wound was a huge disadvantage.


Here we have a couple of other envenom myths that are not correct, talking from an RMP PoV

1. "Everybody runs envenom"

- no, a lot of people do, but plenty of top players went back to the old doublewound/Evisc specc.

2. "You are gimping your damage if u dont spec envenom"

- this is also incorrect. the envenomspecc dmg will only be superior if you sit on a target over a longer duration, which you rarely do as RMP RMP's use the opener to gain momentum and force cooldowns. you need to have a very good burst in the duration of the sap/opener. unless your extremely lucky with DP applications, you wont stack 5 very fast, and using double wound will give more dmg than wound+deadly. the envenom damage will also probobly not be that high in the opener due to lack of CP generation, and a lot of times the burst gets fucked cus dp failes to apply and u cant use envenom.

using gouge between cs and KS is also an important point, because it allows your partners to dispell/CC/pop cooldowns while the target is unable to do anything so that they can get done with their other stuff before kidney lands, thus ending in longer uptime on the target for you partners. (also gives a nice window to use ToTT, since as RMP it's most likely your partners havent gotten time to DPS before CS is over
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#26 Rensy

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 01:09 AM

wound poison proc when you env
berserker proc
trinket procs
exalted ring procs (lolnerds)
improved kidney shot
buffs

more more more
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#27 Rensy

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 01:11 AM

btw to back up captain dual-wound supporter, comps like ret rogue priest i find envenom to be much shittier overall compared to 41/5/25, where every 100 points of damage matters on bursts and swaps, and you are likely to be training a cloth or leather virgin
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#28 Macrospamftw

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 01:14 AM

wound poison proc when you env
berserker proc
trinket procs
exalted ring procs (lolnerds)
improved kidney shot
buffs

more more more


this one time, i had all my shit procced all at once, and i did a lot of damage.

just like every other single class in the game. :)
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my 1300 resli shaman got nuked down by a rogue through roar of sac and masterscall over frost traps not to mention the discpriest spaming offensiveabilitys while i sat in blind/fear/dismantle/to fear again and when i was out double evasion cant touch rogue back into fear and well envom is worst than any war my shaman can heal through war damage but envom with discpriest = dead


MM hunter complaining about burst damage.

#29 tafu

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 01:59 AM

Who the hell wears 1k resil? I think 7-800 is more logical, unless you're talking about a Warlock, Priest or Druid. 2 of which you wouldn't be using envenom on regardless.


BTW if you're a Rogue supporting envenom (which is hitting higher, on average, than SS was pre-nerf) trot your ass over to the DK forums and support the flawed logic behind the recent Scourge Strike nerfs.

Or be hypocrites, whatever.
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#30 Macrospamftw

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:24 AM

Who the hell wears 1k resil? I think 7-800 is more logical, unless you're talking about a Warlock, Priest or Druid. 2 of which you wouldn't be using envenom on regardless.


BTW if you're a Rogue supporting envenom (which is hitting higher, on average, than SS was pre-nerf) trot your ass over to the DK forums and support the flawed logic behind the recent Scourge Strike nerfs.

Or be hypocrites, whatever.


you mean scourge strike hitting for 10k+ on any target, usable back to back twice. soo, a 20k+ burst with minimal setup versus a 9k max crit that requires a lot of setup time and also requires that the other team not have a shaman / pally / druid on the team that knows how to click cleansing totem / cleanse / abolish?

btw, 1.2k resil, and a warrior can still solo me in the duration of a cyclone thanks to skillstorm.

the irony of a warrior calling anything else overpowered, nevermind a PvE gear-wearing warrior (750 resil? i know people in full deadly with more than that).
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my 1300 resli shaman got nuked down by a rogue through roar of sac and masterscall over frost traps not to mention the discpriest spaming offensiveabilitys while i sat in blind/fear/dismantle/to fear again and when i was out double evasion cant touch rogue back into fear and well envom is worst than any war my shaman can heal through war damage but envom with discpriest = dead


MM hunter complaining about burst damage.

#31 tafu

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:26 AM

Scourge Strike never hit for 10k, ever. Even back in s5. My Scourge strike crit, on average, about 4-5k prenerf. You're exaggerations are disgusting, please never attempt a logical post ever again.

ty


Also, cleansing totem/manual spam hurts DK's far more than Rogues. If you don't know this it simply shows your own ignorance.
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#32 United

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:31 AM

Hm not 100% sure but does curse of elements work with envenom?
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#33 Macrospamftw

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:38 AM

Scourge Strike never hit for 10k, ever. Even back in s5. My Scourge strike crit, on average, about 4-5k prenerf. You're exaggerations are disgusting, please never attempt a logical post ever again.

ty


Also, cleansing totem/manual spam hurts DK's far more than Rogues. If you don't know this it simply shows your own ignorance.


since DKs are pulling numbers off of what PvE geared rogues are doing with dual zerking procs and an AP trinket popped, i figured it was in line to do the same.

also, please tell me how a water totem (lolmp5) or using 1 GcD to take off our poisons hurts a DK more than a warrior. please explain that.
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my 1300 resli shaman got nuked down by a rogue through roar of sac and masterscall over frost traps not to mention the discpriest spaming offensiveabilitys while i sat in blind/fear/dismantle/to fear again and when i was out double evasion cant touch rogue back into fear and well envom is worst than any war my shaman can heal through war damage but envom with discpriest = dead


MM hunter complaining about burst damage.

#34 tafu

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:41 AM

DK's don't even ss crit for 10k in pve with full raid buffs. Try again.



Your poisons are applied via auto attack. Since we're talking about envenom, they also stack 5+ wound+crippling times with a 30% dispel resistance on each stack of Deadly.

DK Diseases require a rune to apply. We receive 1 rune every 10 seconds with 4 possible disease runes being initially available. Scourge strike requires 1 frost and 1 unholy rune to use and damage is modified by the amount of diseases on the target. Therefore, when 1 disease is dispelled, not only do we lose damage on scourge strike and have to wait 10 seconds (or however long after the disease is cleansed and the rune has left on CD), but we also have to use a frost or unholy rune to re-apply that disease, obstructing our rotation and disabling us from using scourge strike as much. We do have a 30% dispel protection on diseases, much like deadly poison.

So, the main difference is poisons are applied via auto attack with 7 stacks 5 of which have dispel protection, whereas diseases stack 3 times, 2 which require core resources which mitigate main strike usage when having to be re-applied due to a cleanse.
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#35 Danje

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:50 AM

I crit Powerslave for an 8k envenom earlier. Felt good.
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P.S. If you see a hunter in the street try not to make eye contact. If you accidentally meet his gaze, try standing still, if my theories are correct and hunters in fact share 68.4% of their DNA with the T-rex, he won't be able to see you and you may avoid attack.

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#36 Raia

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:50 AM

I don't get why everyone always compares their damage to other classes, but if they die for being dumb its FUCKING WOTLK DAMAGE IS TOO HIGH.
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#37 tafu

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:51 AM

Read my sig and you might get an idea why I'm comparing the lead designer's logic with current game mechanics in the context of the recent scourge strike nerf and envenom buff.
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#38 Powerslave

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:53 AM

btw, 1.2k resil, and a warrior can still solo me in the duration of a cyclone thanks to skillstorm.

the irony of a warrior calling anything else overpowered


I hope you wrote that in purpose.You're a rogue complaining about getting killed by bladestorm(hello feint,evasion) and on the following sentence you use the word irony.I am speechless.
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#39 Powerslave

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:54 AM

I crit Powerslave for an 8k envenom earlier. Felt good.


I was on 947 resilience.

hope it was fun getting raped on lordaeron.

hf with new wotf

:cool:
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#40 Raia

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 02:55 AM

Read my comment and you might get an idea why I'm comparing the lead designer's logic with current game mechanics in the context of the recent scourge strike nerf and envenom buff.

If that was directed at me, I meant more along the lines of rogues saying 'Well warriors 2 shot us, so we should be able to 2 shot them'. It extends way out of this situation though as well. Same can be said for healing as well, but burst healing is another story.
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