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Envenom demystification


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#1 qedqed

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:30 PM

I decided to write this after i read ppl getting a 10K crit of envenom in pvp. Envenom gets 45% of the attack power as dmg. You get more that 1k resilience wearing only PvP items, no gems or enchants. If you go in arena with 700 resi dont whine 'cos you die too fast.

Environment:
Build 44/X/2X
5 stacks deadly poison.
Numbers are rounded to the 4th digit.

Gear:
(1)Rogue in pvp gear: 4600 AP
(2)Rogue with alot of pve gear: 5000 AP

About (1):
Base damage + 0.45*AP = 1075 + 2070 = 3145
Talents: Vile poisons +20%, Find Weakness +4%, Murder +4% = +28%

Envenom Final dmg: 4026, 8052 crit, 9662 crit (under 35% HP)


On a player with 1k resilience: -23.31% (from crits), -10.60% (overall)

Damage reduction: 0.8940
Damage reduction (crit): 0.7669 * 0.8940 = 0.6856

Envenom Final dmg: 3600, 5520 crit, 6624 crit (under 35% HP)



About (2):
Base damage + 0.45*AP = 1075 + 2250 = 3345
Talents: Vile poisons +20%, Find Weakness +4%, Murder +4% = +28%

Envenom Final dmg: 4256, 8512 crit, 10214 crit (under 35% HP)


On a player with 1k resilience:

Damage reduction: 0.8940
Damage reduction (crit): = 0.6856

Envenom Final dmg: 3804, 5836 crit, 7003 crit (under 35% HP)



Comments:
My envenom crit chance in pvp is about 25%, i dont see Envenom out of control by far. If ppl was just ignoring a rogue on them, now they have atleast heal. When i was on any plate target not even able to force him to do something to get rid of me was very frustrating.

Edit: I didn't put 5.5k AP (BoM) just because i forgot. I'm not used to play with a paladin in 3vs3 and anyway i dont think there are many high rated setup for a rogue + paladin.

Edit2: I dont see why ppl complain about the dmg on targets under 35% Hp, that's our (crap) execute. Warrior and hunters have that too on a separate ability, with the difference if you drop under 20% vs an hunter you are just dead.
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#2 Ashe

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:32 PM

5.5k+ AP with Might.
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#3 Lulu

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:33 PM

Well done, +rep.
To all the whiners with their 10k crits. This is a constructive post with actual data in it. Go figure.
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#4 ohi

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:33 PM

thanks for that, people giving out random numbers how much envenom hit them for

:D
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#5 Dosk

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:39 PM

Nice work.

Hopefully this will hush some of the whiners in the other thread.
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#6 Mysteriouz

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:43 PM

Goodjob, +rep my friend ;>
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#7 Felic

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:48 PM

How much does it hurt rogues if I keep dispelling their Deadly poison btw? Alot right?
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:o i didnt c wat u did thar, could you explain for us dumb ppl?


#8 qedqed

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:49 PM

How much does it hurt rogues if I keep dispelling their Deadly poison btw? Alot right?


If you keep spamming dispell at the opener (no poisons yet) it can be good, once it stacks... dont waste your global.
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#9 Aloquent

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:50 PM

I have been hit with a 10K envenom in a kidney shot against Rogue/Lock/Shaman when I was floating around 40% health. I'm not making this up to bitch or whine, but it killed me. It was 8K with a 2K overkill.

Wish I had screenshotted it for proof.

However the majority of envenoms crit me for 6k-8k.
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#10 dubroya

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:53 PM

Are you able to kill a target by just gluing to that target for the whole match?
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#11 unifin

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:01 PM

Don't you also have to add 13% more damage if they're running RLS?

As for envenom damage on its own, I only see envenom crits above 6K in 2s if they're HfB.

The problem is that you have a DoT ticking for 900+ every three seconds, as well as wound poison procs for what, 650ish (fien - 412 ><) on most autoattacks and specials. Assuming most of your white attacks hit, you end up with a pretty absurd amount of magic damage in a very short time period.

EDIT: Fair enough on wound poison - I wasn't sure.
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#12 Powerslave

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:04 PM

Don't you also have to add 13% more damage if they're running RLS?


this,envenom is nature damage which means it'll hit for more if they're playing with a moonkin,warlock or unholy dk.
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#13 qedqed

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:11 PM

Don't you also have to add 13% more damage if they're running RLS?

As for envenom damage on its own, I only see envenom crits above 6K in 2s if they're HfB.

The problem is that you have a DoT ticking for 900+ every three seconds, as well as wound poison procs for what, 650ish on most autoattacks and specials. Assuming most of your white attacks hit, you end up with a pretty absurd amount of magic damage in a very short time period.


Poison is magic, then i think so. Also frost bolt, chaos bolt, conflagrate and all the other spells are doing 13% more dmg. As you can see i'm not playing RLS. I died in a shadofury stun from 100% vs a spell cleave, coudnt even clos.

Please don't trow random numbers even in this thread. My wound poison hits for about 412 dmg and not 650, also the crit chance is about 14% in PvE so i think you will not see so many crits in PvP.
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#14 Mewee

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:12 PM

Yep, Improved kidney shot, Curse of elements and Berserking/trinket proc will inflate these numbers and are all quite common in arena matches.
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#15 Pitiless

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 04:49 PM

People also need to realize envenom damage didn't go up in 3.3. At all. It's been the same for months.

Damage overall went up without a doubt, it stacks a little easier and proccs wound poison when it's up to 5, but all these OMFG CRAZY ENVENOM CRIT FOR 10K ALL THE TIME THEY BROKE IT IN 3.3 are pretty dumb.
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#16 Hyri

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:31 PM

People also need to realize envenom damage didn't go up in 3.3. At all. It's been the same for months.

Damage overall went up without a doubt, it stacks a little easier and proccs wound poison when it's up to 5, but all these OMFG CRAZY ENVENOM CRIT FOR 10K ALL THE TIME THEY BROKE IT IN 3.3 are pretty dumb.


...

The deadly poison buff has overwritten all other poison combinations. In other words, if you aren't using Wound/Deadly your gimping your damage. The proc rate on your Wound weapon is about the same as running Wound/Wound.

So its near as damn the same damage + a powerful dot and most importantly you keep MS and Crippling on the target.

Therefore everyone is turning to envenom. Not because it got "OMFG BUFFED TO HELL" but because it wasn't possible before. Not having Wound/Wound was a huge disadvantage.

Rogues are OP as hell atm. Usually im not too bothered about buffs and nerfs like this, my main beef is that its destroyed the 2v2 bracket for me.
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#17 qedqed

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:38 PM

...
Usually im not too bothered about buffs and nerfs like this, my main beef is that its destroyed the 2v2 bracket for me.


You come 2 seasons late dude *cough* Warriors, DKs, prot palas, Huneters *cough*
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#18 Pitiless

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:40 PM

Therefore everyone is turning to envenom. Not because it got "OMFG BUFFED TO HELL" but because it wasn't possible before. Not having Wound/Wound was a huge disadvantage.


Of course it was possible. Not having double wound wasn't a huge disadvantage, it's not like it was hard to keep wound up if you ran with wound/deadly. Quite a bit of rogues were using wound/deadly before 3.3. And the rogue needs 5 stacks of deadly poison up to make it seem like "wound/wound" right now, which isn't always possible and it can be countered.

Anyway, my point was that envenom didn't suddenly gain damage. Yes it's more common now and yes the spec gained quite a bit of sustained damage, maybe too much, I'm not denying that. But 10k envenoms aren't common at all and the damage of it has been the same for months.
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#19 Craton

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:41 PM

@OP
Did you double dip crit reduction with regular reduction?

Damage reduction: 0.8940
Damage reduction (crit): 0.7669 * 0.8940 = 0.6856


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#20 FujiwaraTakumi

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:43 PM

Rogues are OP as hell atm. Usually im not too bothered about buffs and nerfs like this, my main beef is that its destroyed the 2v2 bracket for me.


Pretty sure things like me rolling full pve gear as my pve combat spec and demolishing two people on the other team at once in a bf'd killing spree, all while a resto druid outheals any damage on my 0 resil self is what broke 2v2.
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