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SS Nerf Logic (Blue)


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#181 tafu

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:27 AM

because you don't have ms you should be doing 150% damage AT THE VERY LEAST?

It's very hard to have a discussion when you have standards like that.


Yes, as a melee class with no consistent cc, I believe 150% damage of a class with Mortal Strike is a reasonable request.

You've got to understand, much of a DK's damage doesn't come from single target DPS. This has been stressed by many DK's throughout this thread. 150% damage would take into account Disease damage (much of which is AoE and skyrockets our total damage number), pet damage, and direct focus target damage.
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#182 stazzy

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:28 AM

Aww ive gone and upset the Dks agian

But yea on topic here DKs wernt that bad Ive only played for week in season 7 it was like 2 weeks before this nerf and dks were pretty balanced...they were just annoying of course but the good ones definitly did enough damage and I played with a shaman or priest so there was cleanseing.

last I got question for LAFU because I acctually trust his awnser....was the SS nerf for pve or pvp reasons? I dont know shit about pve but i heard dks did retarded dps or something


dont post here again, please.
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#183 Thoreck

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:45 AM

Lol? Armor penetration doesn't counter armor. Stopping at that statement. You're a retard, please never post again.


While very poorly worded he is correct about ArP having the exact same effect on a hunter as a prot paladin. ArP caps at calculating armor at around 9.5k, anything higher than that is not counted towards the ammount negated.

And to answer a previous poster the nerf was due to a mix of pvp and pve "issues". In pvp people were seeing five digit crits on undergeared clothies. In pve our dps saw a huge increase with 3.3 while still being below two "pure" classes in mut-rogues and arcane mages.

Overall I am still very confused as to the knee-jerk reaction that resulted after a mere one day of live gameplay while it was on the ptr for months. It really shows a lack of understanding about game mechanics and balance on the part of the development team.
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#184 Photek

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:49 AM

I posted something almost identical to this on the WoW official forums, but it probably will go unheeded there.

According to EJ, bosses have normalized armor. Anyone who thinks about this for more than 2 seconds will realize that it makes no sense to change scourge strike to be based SO HEAVILY off an opponent's armor. The ONLY place you fight things with varying amounts of armor is in PVP. This I think is the best argument against this change, it simply makes no logical sense.

They said they wanted to make scourge strike more unique and viable for PVE DPS, that is why they changed it. Well just taking a look at the tree I can see a hundred options how to make scourge strike better for PVE without disabling its use in PVP.

They could have made Desolation 5/5 give scourge strike a chance to proc BCB, or a 100% chance to proc just a weaker BCB (there are a ton of ways to play with JUST THIS ONE IDEA). This would work well since no PVP DK can reasonably afford BCB 3/3 and Desolation 5/5 but all PVE DKs have this. You could make the argument that PVP DKs would respec by any means to acquire this new "burst", but it is impossible to rearrange those 8 talent points without dropping Impurity and Subversion, or Impurity and defensive talents (OAPH, AMZ, etc). This would be fine.

Another idea I had was to change bone shield to increase scourge strike damage by a modest 3-5% in addition to the 2% damage that it already adds to all attacks. Again, a huge PVE buff without changing the PVP scene at all. No DK would sacrifice a key defensive cooldown, a GCD, and an unholy rune to boost their scourge strike damage marginally.

There are a ton of ways they could have handled this. Instead, they handled it poorly and had to hotnerf it, this is probably the most embarrassing and unprofessional thing I've ever seen Blizzard do.
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#185 tafu

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:49 AM

While very poorly worded he is correct about ArP having the exact same effect on a hunter as a prot paladin. ArP caps at calculating armor at around 9.5k, anything higher than that is not counted towards the ammount negated.

And to answer a previous poster the nerf was due to a mix of pvp and pve "issues". In pvp people were seeing five digit crits on undergeared clothies. In pve our dps saw a huge increase with 3.3 while still being below two "pure" classes in mut-rogues and arcane mages.

Overall I am still very confused as to the knee-jerk reaction that resulted a mere one day of live gameplay while it was on the ptr for months. It really shows a lack of understanding of game mechanics and balance on the part of the development team


Sure, he was correct in what he said, but he set up a straw-man argument. The fact is ArP DOES counter armor. Just because it counters it on a percentage basis doesn't nullify the fact that it counters armor.

His statement wasn't poorly worded. It said exactly what he meant (in his mind), and I called him on his stupidity.


You're also confusing yourself with what "nerfs" we're talking about. The pre-patch SS, before any change of any kind, was completely fine. No one in their right mind was complaining about the damage of SS. The NEW SS made things EVEN MORE IMBALANCED with 5 digit crits on clothies and 3 digit number on high armored targets. This problem was entirely created by the SS change, and could have been completely avoided.
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#186 Powerslave

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:51 AM

That's kinda the law of this game for classes without MS do 1.5x the damage of a class with it to make up for it.. Well it used to be.


it's not a rule of the game,I suspect it's a rule made up by people who play hybrid classes (and dks are very much like hybrid melee classes) since they've definitely have had everything handed to them on a silver platter in this expansion (and more so at the beggining) which created a lot of false standards.
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#187 Powerslave

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:53 AM

While very poorly worded he is correct about ArP having the exact same effect on a hunter as a prot paladin. ArP caps at calculating armor at around 9.5k, anything higher than that is not counted towards the ammount negated.


Caps at around 8k iirc?ARP doesnt counter armor,it counters strength(since it's the same stat but better) and pvp gear.

having said all that dks are pretty crappy in arena after the coi bug
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#188 Mikelsonlol

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:54 AM

Lafu arguing with daays will never do anythi g the guy simply doesn't u nderstand the dk class aparently because we top meters at the end of the game were ok
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#189 Squishyflap

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:54 AM

this is getting rediculous
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#190 Srgjohnson2

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:56 AM

dont post here again, please.


I said that dks were balanced enough and yes....I think the change is stupid so I dont see your problem so ill try to give you what you want...

Yes...you are the best player ever...yes ur partners are the reason you arnt rank 1....yes dk since the end of s5 has been completly underpowerd hopefully your happy now right???

anyways im out of here ill read the Dk QQ when I can
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#191 Deathlygnome

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:05 AM

it's not a rule of the game,I suspect it's a rule made up by people who play hybrid classes (and dks are very much like hybrid melee classes) since they've definitely have had everything handed to them on a silver platter in this expansion (and more so at the beggining) which created a lot of false standards.


Handed to them on a silver platter? You're a warrior, you have a spell interrupt and don't have to use it even ONCE to kill a healer in equal gear to you.

DK's have to throw every tool in their arsenal to kill a healer in equal gear to them. and that was PRE 3.3 Scourge strike.
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#192 tafu

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:06 AM

Lafu arguing with daays will never do anythi g the guy simply doesn't u nderstand the dk class aparently because we top meters at the end of the game were ok



Funny thing is I agree, DK's were fine before this horribly unneeded nerf.
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#193 Typh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:08 AM

its really fucking dumb tbh, and the other sad thing is, scaling as a deathknight is terrible as fuck

if you have 2k AP more then another dk, you cant even tell the difference in damage

just to add in too, deathknights are one of the classes that get fucked over by resilience the most too, oh hi patch 3.3 lets give everyone 50 more resiliece through pvp sets, or elemental shamans 150 through double setbonus stacks.

how are we even going to think about dropping a elemental shaman when hes got like 1.3k resiliece+, mail armor and a shield, let alone all the plate which we 700+700 ss hit on


oh, and we cant get armor pen because we have to gem spell pen, n1
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#194 Thoreck

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:10 AM

Sure, he was correct in what he said, but he set up a straw-man argument. The fact is ArP DOES counter armor. Just because it counters it on a percentage basis doesn't nullify the fact that it counters armor.

His statement wasn't poorly worded. It said exactly what he meant (in his mind), and I called him on his stupidity.


You're also confusing yourself with what "nerfs" we're talking about. The pre-patch SS, before any change of any kind, was completely fine. No one in their right mind was complaining about the damage of SS. The NEW SS made things EVEN MORE IMBALANCED with 5 digit crits on clothies and 3 digit number on high armored targets. This problem was entirely created by the SS change, and could have been completely avoided.


I was not talking about the first change, I agree 100% that SS was fine as it was. Any change made for pve was a terrible decision as blood has been and still is very viable for pve. I was only commenting as to why the second nerf went through.

And after having re-read his post I agree that it was more than just poorly worded.

And to be honest even though I strongly disliked the change from 3.2 SS to "casino-strike", I think that pre the second nerf it was still manageable. After having done some games today it seems the only viable spec/strat is to go some to version of shadowfrost 2.0 (Which I hate).
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#195 Squishyflap

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:12 AM

the only option i see for unholy is stacking alot of arp, which reduces our surviability stats so highly
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#196 Mikelsonlol

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:14 AM

I agree too all I ever wanted was disease protection because they go away too easy
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#197 Typh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:18 AM

the only option i see for unholy is stacking alot of arp, which reduces our surviability stats so highly


we have to gem spell pen because blizzard havent gave us any through gear, so we cant gem ArP

gear: we need hit rating, so we cant take ArP pvp ring and neck

that means we have to take PVE gear, then we get 2shot even faster

things just dont add up:

to even think that we should stack ArP, we need some hit and spell pen standard on pvp gear so we have some space for ArP gemming
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#198 Powerslave

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:18 AM

Lol? Armor penetration doesn't counter armor. Stopping at that statement. You're a retard, please never post again.


Whoa this is sig material right there.

Armor penetration has actually little to do with armor in a pvp situation.It's only against very low armor that strength is better than armor penetration.

If x is damage increase per point of ARP and y the damage increase per point strength for a warrior, x/y reaches its peak at medium armor and then starts to decline very slowly.

In theory ARP is actually better(Although very slightly) against hunters than it is against DKs.

My point wasn't worded poorly or anything,in pvp,arp is just a better version of strength with the exception of mages.If dealing less damage to mages and equal damage to everyone else equals counters armor,I don't know what to say.

TL;DR: ARP Does NOT counter armor in the way you mean it.
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#199 wargumby

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:21 AM

This is a response to a DK by GC detailing the logic behind the recent nerf to SS.




The sad reality of the current state of WoW simply does not support this logic. Warriors with 80% passive ArP, Rogues with wound poison procs nearly every hit and upwards of 7k envenom crits (not exaggerating to any extent), hunters with chimera shot/explosive shot, etc. The simple fact is all of these classes have attacks that ignore armor, or have a stat that they can gear that perfectly counters armor and has no downside to other abilities.

Anyways, just wanted to debunk the logic behind this nerf directly to prove that it was unwarranted and incompatible when compared to the current state of other "physical damage" classes.

bam

EDIT:

And just for the record.. who was asking for a buff to Scourge Strike? (Read: last part of first quoted paragraph) The majority of DK's who actually knew what high level arena was like were asking for 1 thing: disease protection -or- some way to counter spam cleanse abuse in 3's and 5's. If that had been done DK's would have been well balanced. Not OP and not useless. Not a single DK worth his shit was asking for a SS overhaul, and especially not the abomination that is the new ss.


its already been said multiple times that some stats are getting removed from the game, gearable arpen for example will significantly lower warriors dmg vs higher armor targets, and explosive shot got its nerf in season 6 chimera shot is lowered quite a bit by armor as many hunters can tell u, and time will probably see envenoms calculation being changed to not be so heavily magic based or have a higher resist chance like dks and hunters had added to there armor ignoring attacks.

besides ss hits 2 classes for somewhat lower dmg ..still far from to low for a good team to kill them, but it still hits us clothies for way to much, if i find a good dk ill try and grab a screen shot for a 9k ss on SL with 1171 res
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#200 tafu

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:23 AM

You're setting up a straw man again. You're making up your own points as you go. I simply made the point that GC's logic in that statement was flawed because of a variety of factors currently in the game such as Warriors having insane amounts of armor pen and therefore negating a large portion of player's armor much like Scourge Strike does. There are many more example of physical damage classes ignoring armor such as Hunter's Chimera Shot or Rogue's poisons and envenom. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make, it's pretty obvious that ArP counters armor. Just because it does so on a percentage basis and has a lower benefit on lower armored targets doesn't change this fact.
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