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SS Nerf Logic (Blue)


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#1 tafu

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 12:00 PM

This is a response to a DK by GC detailing the logic behind the recent nerf to SS.

To reiterate one more time....

We're not going to let an attack that ignores armor do the same damage as an attack that is reduced by armor. The problem is that when armor gets reduced, a physical attack hits for more while a magical attack does not. The answer I keep reading is "Just buff Scourge Strike." No. It can't do more base damage as long as it bypasses armor.

Armor pen as a stat on gear is going away. The concept of reducing armor (through say Battle Stance or Sunder Armor) is not going away. It's entirely possible a spec or two might improve their armor pen through the Mastery feature. Even if it was going away, magical attacks still can't hit as hard as physical attacks. There would be no reason to have physical attacks.

At a very high level there are two options: Scourge Strike hits at X damage but respects armor, or Scourge Strike hits at X*0.5 and ignores armor. Talents etc. can modify this, but they all have their individual budgets too.



The sad reality of the current state of WoW simply does not support this logic. Warriors with 80% passive ArP, Rogues with wound poison procs nearly every hit and upwards of 7k envenom crits (not exaggerating to any extent), hunters with chimera shot/explosive shot, etc. The simple fact is all of these classes have attacks that ignore armor, or have a stat that they can gear that perfectly counters armor and has no downside to other abilities.

Anyways, just wanted to debunk the logic behind this nerf directly to prove that it was unwarranted and incompatible when compared to the current state of other "physical damage" classes.

bam

EDIT:

And just for the record.. who was asking for a buff to Scourge Strike? (Read: last part of first quoted paragraph) The majority of DK's who actually knew what high level arena was like were asking for 1 thing: disease protection -or- some way to counter spam cleanse abuse in 3's and 5's. If that had been done DK's would have been well balanced. Not OP and not useless. Not a single DK worth his shit was asking for a SS overhaul, and especially not the abomination that is the new ss.
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#2 Znik

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 12:04 PM

DK's really needed a nerf... not
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#3 dkcarries

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 12:05 PM

just give up at trying to argue with that guy
i guess he doesnt really play this game and have no clue what's going on in reality
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#4 Wibang

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 12:08 PM

I just lol around when i see dks coming for my druid in 2v2s
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#5 Furl

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 12:10 PM

"magical attacks still can't hit as hard as physical attacks"

LOL?
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#6 Raidor

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 01:35 PM

I just said to my 2s partner i aint doing 2s anymore, can still prob mess with 3s.. but not been able to kill a druid before and now pally has pretty much killed any interest i have in 2s
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#7 Mightlol

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 02:10 PM

Hope my 3s comp (phd ) wont get that much nerfed with that fucking nerf...

But i think it might be changed in a few days if deathknight are under all in pvp x)
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TSG shouldn't win against an equally skilled LSD but 99% of all LSDs are super retarded so it's quite easy to zerg the druid from start to finish.


#8 Wormed

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 02:15 PM

BUT DKs ARE S'POSED TO BE IN THE BEST CLASS IN TEH GAME.
SO SAYTEH GHOSTCRAWLER
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#9 Lauviah

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 02:19 PM

He's just a fucking dickhead who doesn't really know anything about pvp scene.
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#10 Efram

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 02:39 PM

just retarded nerf again......:mad:
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#11 Schmeiser

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 03:08 PM

Hmm all these nerfs when i started lvling a dk for shadowcleave, hmm i dont mind the SS nerf since i wont be the damage dealer but chains of ice not only on one target. How will i protect my lock vs TSG
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[16:09] maajty: wlp was the strongest setup
[16:09] maajty: after lsd

RPS 2.2k hero talking about s8

#12 Angus

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 03:30 PM

why bring a dk if you can bring a prot warrior, a prot paladin, a rogue, a enhancement shaman, a hunter, a shadow priest, a disci priest, a feral druid, a retard paladin ? and i could go on..

the problem is, dispel, dispelcleaves, with great skill cleansing everything. If there wasnt no dispel, dks would be fine. But for me, dks are dead just now with the coi nerf, that was their only advantage to bring them, and now its gone.

/clap lolcrawler, i bet you have a 1650 rated rogue.

as long as this guy doesnt change, wow is dead.
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Its a bit Neilyo to ask of someone, but grounding a shadowfury

Angus, Bring on the Thunder!

#13 Upptaget

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 03:39 PM

They will allways prio PvE over PvP, haven't you realised this by now? Arena is a small part compared to PvE in this game, not much we can do about it.. And in PvE, yea this nerf was really needed.
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Kasta inte bäver i trähus.

#14 Aqueous

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 03:54 PM

DK need nerf ? i hope ...

next patch in wow - DK HERO class is now removed from game ...
after then wow will be good game again


Not as long as Ferals still exist, heh.

Oh well looks like it's back to Shadowfrost.
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:warrior: (Arms) have just too much mobility, too much dmg, an always up healing debuff, too much CC avoidance and they can survive too well. The new charge in combat is worst than macestun.


On the topic of Engineering: It's not and never was an imbalance.


LUL!!

#15 Whillwinz

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 03:55 PM

This is a response to a DK by GC detailing the logic behind the recent nerf to SS.




The sad reality of the current state of WoW simply does not support this logic. Warriors with 80% passive ArP, Rogues with wound poison procs nearly every hit and upwards of 7k envenom crits (not exaggerating to any extent), hunters with chimera shot/explosive shot, etc. The simple fact is all of these classes have attacks that ignore armor, or have a stat that they can gear that perfectly counters armor and has no downside to other abilities.

Anyways, just wanted to debunk the logic behind this nerf directly to prove that it was unwarranted and incompatible when compared to the current state of other "physical damage" classes.

bam

EDIT:

And just for the record.. who was asking for a buff to Scourge Strike? (Read: last part of first quoted paragraph) The majority of DK's who actually knew what high level arena was like were asking for 1 thing: disease protection -or- some way to counter spam cleanse abuse in 3's and 5's. If that had been done DK's would have been well balanced. Not OP and not useless. Not a single DK worth his shit was asking for a SS overhaul, and especially not the abomination that is the new ss.


Everyone knows ArP is broken, everyone knows Envenom is broken and hunters explosive shot makes up as much of their damage as death coil does for DKs. The problem with comparing SS to those classes is that they do mostly physical damage, most of a DKs damage outside of SS is magical and DC is bursty as well.

All DKs need is a complete dispel deterrent, it would help Chains and their damage be consistent. They also need the Chains bug fixed...
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#16 Bullcopter

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 04:00 PM

The sad reality of the current state of WoW simply does not support this logic. Warriors with 80% passive ArP, Rogues with wound poison procs nearly every hit and upwards of 7k envenom crits (not exaggerating to any extent), hunters with chimera shot/explosive shot, etc. The simple fact is all of these classes have attacks that ignore armor, or have a stat that they can gear that perfectly counters armor and has no downside to other abilities.


from a theoretical standpoint it would be easier to balance if they did away with armor. Should a warrior automatically do 40% less damage to a paladin than to a priest? Casters don't look through gladius and say oh I hit x for half as much as I do y (netherprot excluded). It's understandable that there needs to be factors that dictate who the best target to be on is, but w/o arpen the difference in damage wars putout on classes is going to once again be night and day. I realize certain classes defenses are balanced around mitigation and others around elusiveness, just something to think about
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#17 Skepter

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 04:12 PM

DK need nerf ? i hope ...

next patch in wow - DK HERO class is now removed from game ...
after then wow will be good game again


;);)
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#18 daays

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 04:12 PM

Not trying to derail, as the new SS change is pretty poorly thought out.

I just wanna know one thing. Why do you think DKs are crippled by disease cleansing? As if you're damage becomes non existent? Why do you need near undispellable diseases? DKs vs resto druid teams do ridiculous damage.

I can go through your game history and pick some games out
http://www.wowarmory...91815&b=Rampage
http://www.wowarmory...91784&b=Rampage
http://www.wowarmory...74044&b=Rampage
http://www.wowarmory...40293&b=Rampage
http://www.wowarmory...40565&b=Rampage
http://www.wowarmory...38680&b=Rampage
http://www.wowarmory...39301&b=Rampage

Notice something about these games?
You are the #1 damage out of both teams
Notice something else?
The other team has a paladin, priest, or shaman.

So please, how is it possible to have your damage crippled by disease cleansing and still be the top damage?

It's the same for other top rated DKs, although in shadowcleave the lock is usually #1 for obvious reasons.

DKs aren't OP.
They are balanced.

Wanting high burst with high spread coupled with the utility of the class would make DKs OP and start back down the path towards s5.
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#19 Lauviah

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 04:19 PM

Seems like it's all back to death coil spec again ;p

Sighz
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#20 Takanit

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 04:34 PM

[...]and hunters explosive shot makes up as much of their damage as death coil does for DKs. The problem with comparing SS to those classes is that they do mostly physical damage, most of a DKs damage outside of SS is magical and DC is bursty as well.


Over half of a survival hunter's damage is from explosive shot.
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