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*Ponders* A way to fix mages in pvp :)


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#21 Kubuss

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 08:41 PM

My gear obviously isn't so great yet, but we played nothing but RMP, TSG, Beast Cleave and DK/Hunter/Pally last night and almost every team trained me the entire time, very successfully. The whole 'can't train a Mage' thing is sort of silly and really seems to be a comment directed towards RMP than Mages in general.


RMP and wizard cleave, pretty much. Playing wizard cleave and if people train me, they will lose unless it's RMP.
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#22 makoplux

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 08:54 PM

I think it just kind of blows that every time you wear a piece of arena gear virtually every player (mage) would rather have that exact same piece with haste replacing crit. It sucks to be forced to choose between gear of a "modern" ilvl but poor stat distribution or a piece of gear that is months (seasons) behind that actually has haste on it.

As far as I can tell this is not really a problem which other classes face on a similar scale.

I find it odd that balancing the mage class would be structured at all around just not putting the most desirable stats on PvP gear. If they're gonna balance frost mages one way or another... giving us stats we don't want is not the way to do it.
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#23 Sindelle

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 08:59 PM

I wouldn't run with less crit than I have currently. I already barely crit my shatters and I think 600 haste is enough, and I don't want to lose an extra 5% crit.
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#24 Malachim

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 09:01 PM

Not that it'd really matter but with zero crit rating you'd still have at least 50% crit if you consider in your crit from int and talents.

Assuming 50% crit on a frozen target and 20% crit damage reduction, you'd on average do (including CSD):
0.5+0.5*2.09*0.8=1.336 times the damage of a noncrit FB

An additional 327.9 Crit Rating (=7.41% crit) would increase that to:
0.429+0.571*2.09*0.8=1.384 times the damage of a noncrit FB

This results in an increase of:
1-1.384/1.336=0.036=3.6%

For the same budget you could also get 10% haste.

So, would you rather have 10% haste or an additional average 3.6% damage on your shatters?

For every crit rating you drop your burst becomes more and more unreliable, it's just stupid when I yell "SHATTER" on vent and I get a 3.5k frostbolt 2k icelance noncrit... It's like that half of the times when I shatter on a KS. And the target stays alive.

Sure I love all the haste I got, it's nice for getting polys out and turreting frostbolts. But I still kinda miss the times when my shatter was almost guaranteed to crit.

Yes, haste is more useful than crit overall, no doubt - but I wish there was a way of getting "enough" of both stats since mages do need both.
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#25 Sindelle

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 09:02 PM

exactly this
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#26 Nabla

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 09:41 PM

gief 100% shatter
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#27 Hidden

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 11:38 PM

For every crit rating you drop your burst becomes more and more unreliable, it's just stupid when I yell "SHATTER" on vent and I get a 3.5k frostbolt 2k icelance noncrit... It's like that half of the times when I shatter on a KS. And the target stays alive.

Sure I love all the haste I got, it's nice for getting polys out and turreting frostbolts. But I still kinda miss the times when my shatter was almost guaranteed to crit.

Yes, haste is more useful than crit overall, no doubt - but I wish there was a way of getting "enough" of both stats since mages do need both.


You'd need around 2212 crit rating to have shatters be guaranteed crits (with ~1.6 times normal damage). For the same rating you'd get 67.5% haste.
2.3 sec 100% crit shatters vs 1.37 sec FB cast time, 1 sec GCD and 0.9 sec sheep

Crit is not bad, crit rating is just horribly ineffective if you don't have talents further increasing its value.
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#28 Feralswipes

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 11:50 PM

If I'm not mistaken, there is gear with haste on it. They introduced new haste accessories this season along with haste weapon, off-hand, and wand. You can get Haste Legs, Ring, and Chest from Wintergrasp. So lolwut? No haste PvP gear? And also Mages are broken in PvP? lol


BRB GONNA LOWER MY ILVL LOL
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+rep if i helped

#29 Neloangelo

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 12:00 AM

gief 100% shatter


hmm no.
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#30 w00t22

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 12:08 AM

What if they juts gave us haste on pvp gear instead of crit :)?


your doing fine wearing half pve/pvp
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#31 Pownmeisterz

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 01:47 AM

Perhaps remove the 3% passive crit from winter's chill, and make shatter 70%? In a PvE situation, the extra 20% with FoF will turn out to be 3%. In PvP, it will solve the dilemna of low-crit gear on top of resilience making shatter less reliable.
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#32 Eraseasaurus

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 02:51 AM

Perhaps remove the 3% passive crit from winter's chill, and make shatter 70%? In a PvE situation, the extra 20% with FoF will turn out to be 3%. In PvP, it will solve the dilemna of low-crit gear on top of resilience making shatter less reliable.


Or "perhaps" Mages are fine and have been fine? Buffing them when the buffs clearly aren't needed would only create a public outcry that might get more than the proposed buffs removed. Mage damage is fine.
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#33 Madak

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 06:46 AM

lol, you obviously have never played a mage. the reason mages have survivability is because people like you don't touch a mage because you are under the impression we are unkillable. while we aren't the greatest class to tunnel seeing as we have block, however if any melee class connects any type of dmg or hunter can shoot at us for 5-6 seconds they can easily solo us to block.


Wow at people raging, wow. Did I say something about your mothers?

I like where Frost Mages are right in PvP now, the only thing I don't like is the dependence on PvE gear. Is that wrong? All I'm saying is make the Arena sets more attractive for Frost Mages or change the Frost tree so that the Arena sets are better for Frost Mages than they are now. It has nothing to do with buffing or nerfing... just changing Frost Mages so that they are viable for PvP and PvE (since Blizzard seems hellbent on doing that anyway).
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#34 Malachim

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:10 PM

You'd need around 2212 crit rating to have shatters be guaranteed crits (with ~1.6 times normal damage). For the same rating you'd get 67.5% haste.
2.3 sec 100% crit shatters vs 1.37 sec FB cast time, 1 sec GCD and 0.9 sec sheep

Crit is not bad, crit rating is just horribly ineffective if you don't have talents further increasing its value.

yes, thank you for stating the obvious again
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#35 affix

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:56 PM

Perhaps remove the 3% passive crit from winter's chill, and make shatter 70%? In a PvE situation, the extra 20% with FoF will turn out to be 3%. In PvP, it will solve the dilemna of low-crit gear on top of resilience making shatter less reliable.


PvE geared frost mages already have 100% crit while raid buffed with FoF up, according to Lhivera.
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#36 Hidden

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 06:20 PM

PvE geared frost mages already have 100% crit while raid buffed with FoF up, according to Lhivera.


Actually you're already way over 100%.
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#37 Eraseasaurus

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 06:41 PM

Actually you're already way over 100%.


Uh no, not even close to correct.
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#38 Marinara

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 06:56 PM

i dont think we are broken but we woudlnt have to pve any more to get the haste we need :)


so youre saying if you had that passive haste on gear you wouldn't still use PVE gear to get EVEN MORE HASTE?
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#39 Eraseasaurus

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 06:58 PM

so youre saying if you had that passive haste on gear you wouldn't still use PVE gear to get EVEN MORE HASTE?


A little more haste at the cost of a lot of resil really isn't worth it.
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#40 Marinara

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 07:15 PM

it never stopped people from PVE'ing it out before
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