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[Druid/Paladin/Warrior] Resto Druid / Prot-ret Paladin / Arms warrior VS RMP


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#21 Sym

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 04:28 PM

i throw my shield around wherever it is needed.

if my warrior is going to get exploded, we're going to lose the game if i don't use it on the mage.

if we're trying to kill the rogue, i save it for avenging wrath/hammer/bladestorm.

there's almost no circumstances in which i'll use my shield on the priest. if we were trying to kill the rogue, the possibility of 7k+ damage to the rogue outweighs the 3 second silence the priest is going to get.

you need to take the momentum away from this comp. dont let the priest dispel, fear, and mana burn. he needs to be forced to heal as much as possible.

throw freedom on the warrior to screw up the mage. keep sacred shield on the warrior to keep his health high and force them to switch, and when they do you need to exploit it. do whatever you need to do to take the momentum from their team and turn it in your favor. keep damage up on the rogue and get him to cloak and vanish, and catch him before he can open again. if you keep rmp in the run, you're going to win.
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#22 Lolcute

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 01:47 AM

Too tired to reply atm but I will tomorrow I guess, thanks for the replies btw guys :) We're catching up on you now we broke the 2.3k barrier just need to figure out RMPs a bit more :P

BTW: Does this comp have a name yet? I wan't a ridiculous name to tell people when they ask us what we play :P
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#23 Voitagi

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 02:41 AM

I feel like everyone calls it "Voit's Comp." Although, that could have been me dreaming. Better to be safe though, so I'd go with Voit's comp.

In all seriousness though, I've yet to hear a unique name. I've only heard it referred to as a list of the class specs that it contains.
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#24 Sym

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:36 AM

SYMCLEAVE
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#25 Nitestrike

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 11:51 AM

I've done 3s for about a month on this Paladin now, and RMP doesn't seem nearly as difficult to beat as when we started. From what I've found, you can either play a burst game with them, or a outlast game.

About 3 weeks ago, when I was in mostly deadly gear, so we usually played outlast. Basically all stuns for rogue, all avenger shields on mage. DPS was split between rogue and priest, and we would win on mana.

However, we changed our strat to be more specific now, since I happened to replace most of my 213 gear with 245+ gear in 2 weeks (lucky!).

-----

So current strat:

Trinket Sap -> Divine Sac -> Hammer rogue.

At this point warrior will apply MS on rogue, and bladestorm. Rogue usually does some stuff that gets him away alive (sometimes he dies).

At this point we stay on rogue if possible, otherwise we both rush over to mage.

If rogue appears before mage IB, we swap back on rogue. If rogue appears after mage uses IB, we stay mage.

-----

Other stuff:

If sacred shield falls off your target, it means someone is dispelling. Usually that means they're trying to remove hots, and you probably want to keep reapplying sacred shield till dispelling stops.

If the priest is running across the map to fear the druid, do a hard swap on him if either HoJ or Avengers is up. Hes pretty much screwed if hes too far from a pillar to get back to it. If you have no way to stop him, your druid needs to roll blooms on the warrior and just be ready to dispel fear. Pop sac if needed, since more then likely mage will sheep you as priest fear goes off.

Aside from first HoJ, almost all others are used on the priest. 6 seconds worth of healing is difficult to catch up on. Try not to waste HoJ right after a penance, since hes just waiting for CD anyways. If your druid can follow the end of HoJ with a cyclone, you pretty much win.
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#26 Nitestrike

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 12:21 PM

After the initial opener from the rmp I'm usually turtling with shield for a bit too long though I think, as I'm literally not gaining hp for 10-15 secs even after kidney because of the nuke, but this is mainly because the rogue in good rmp's doesn't get shouted out and our paladin can't really help taking some of the saps. Should I be intervening the druid and LOSing for 60%+ hp before charging back to the mage for the interrupt then?

Warrior on my team usually doesn’t shield the opener, and instead we pressure the rogue. For whatever reason I get sapped about 4/5 games, so I usually trinket -> Divine sac + HoJ right on the open. If I’m not sapped, I Divine sac as the warrior charges in to prevent sheep. This gives a lot of padding for the warrior to just go DPS on a stunned rogue with MS, since rogue can’t dodge the first MS when stunned. We’ve actually had multiple 2200+ rated RMP that have had their rogue die here from being too cheap to use CDs. If warrior drops to low enough, 40-50% HP, I usually wings to divert attention. I’ve died to wizard cleave by diverting attention on an open with wings, but its never happened yet vs RMP.

The other reason I like to wings early is that by the time I used up both sacs, the 30 sec time where I can’t use bubble is gone. I usually use bubble as a 2nd trinket, since I almost always use trinket on the open.

Warrior really only shields late game, usually at least a minute in if druid gets CC’ed with no trinket.


As many of the rmp's are all undead I'm not really feeling my fear has much more value than making them global and interrupting casts vs undead rmps. But vs alliance/other races, when do you usually blow your warrior fear?

Seems we usually have fear on priest if he happens to be nearby.

Another issue is where does the paladin silence go? We find that the damage it does (our paladin is pretty awsome geared) is kind of making us not want to use it on the priest, ever. We use it pretty early on the mage to stop a shatter or a polymorph that can't be overpowered/or sac is up(poly). Also vs other teams, should the silence be used like strangulate on their healers while for example their.. say warrior is going down in a hammer bladestorm. Or are you adding the 3-5k dmg from it to the warrior (holy dmg is awsome) to keep him from getting healed through.

Early game its always on the rogue, if I’m out of CDs (BoP/Sac’s) I only use it for actual burst attempts on the rogue, or to slow mage damage.

Also last thing I can think of right now are the constant threat of counterspells while cycloning. Our druid does very rarely cyclone vs rmp because a 10 sec cs while I am below 70% which I am most of the time anyway, means I will go down or at least have to S-wall it. So my question is, do you have some fancy routine where you call out intercepts on mage where the druid gets his second free to cyclone as the mage is unaware for the moment, or do you mainly just fake cyclone-> eat 4 sec softcs -> cyclone?

Druid tries to cyclone mostly just following HoJ’s on priest. Silence is too risky if he gets CS’ed during a cast.
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#27 Oliria

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 07:47 AM

Getting back into arena tonight after 1½ week break. Looking forward to it, but what I really was gonna ask is what you think the Sacred Shield nerf is gonna do to war/protret/druid?

I could see our comp take a big hit from this, SS takes away edge of opponents damage and is a great utility that paladins bring. Protret and rets seems to take a big hit with this, protret for team utility and rets for survivability.

I know I love them sacred shields, gonna miss it if the nerf gets through.
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#28 Lolcute

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 03:45 PM

Another thing real quick semi on topic because I know many warriors don't do this. Don't be afraid to dps while D'd up. Shield slam from an arms warrior, while not amazing, is not bad damage. When I'm D'd and still in the fight, I like to keep MS up and shield slam(along with normal overpower rotations and revenge). Thit way they aren't taking out my damage completely by focusing the warrior, which is usually the point of sitting on the warrior.

...

I believe our druid fake casts cyclone to catch a soft counterspell. He always calls out his cyclones so I know what might happen next, the second he gets blanketed with a soft CS, He calls it out and I look for a way out, whether is SW or a movement out of range of rogue, los of mage, or interupting the mage.


1: I am definately keeping my ms/overpower "rotation" going while shielded throwing in bashes and slams as well ofc. To me this is the only thing validating use of shields at all :P Without continuing to use both normal abilities combined with the reflects on shatters/bashes we would not be shielding as much :P

2: This is definately a good thing to read we'll do our best to get more cyclones in when there is time for it. Our druid has decent sp now with the 2.2 weap so he should be able to have hots rolling hard enough to find the time.


By Sym
there's almost no circumstances in which i'll use my shield on the priest. if we were trying to kill the rogue, the possibility of 7k+ damage to the rogue outweighs the 3 second silence the priest is going to get.

Comforting you say this as we're thinking the same thing about the silence effect contra damage. :)

By Nitestrike
So current strat:

Trinket Sap -> Divine Sac -> Hammer rogue.

Wouldn't it be better in this case to Divine Sac the warr pre sap? Or will this make them not open on you? I'm thinking the sac will get you out of sap anyway while you would stil have your trinket ready for the next priest fear/mage poly you can't get out of.

Personally we try not to get sapped but if we do we use intervene in such a way that the paladin can last the sap duration and we don't pop sac until the paladin is out of sap and get a good start on the mage or rogue by then. How are others on this one?

Also to Nitestrike:

Like the idea of using wings to get more pressure on them in the opener and perhaps divert attention, but with sac up would the paladin be risking a bit much if they get him in a sticky spot i.e deep freeze etc.?

Also: If the druid cuclones during a HoJ on priest how will this prevent mage cs? You said silence is too risky if he gets cs'ed during a cast, which he still can even if the priest is hammered.. ? Didn't quite get you there.

@Oliria
Good luck getting back this week :)

About the sacred shield nerf, it will definately make sacreds less needed but perhaps that will free up some more globals for other stuff? Who knows ;)
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#29 Sym

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 03:52 PM

sacred shield is probably going to get nurfed, but i'd be surprised if it ended up being a 30 second cooldown. i'm guessing they'll reduce the cooldown to sometihng more reasonable, or maybe give ret a talent to reduce the CD as well, so prot/ret is less viable.

30 second cooldown is just stupid. that means if you apply SS, it'll proc once immediately after you take damage, and after that point it'll just be a trash debuff doing absolutely nothing (untalented obviously. if it's talented it'll just proc again in 30 seconds and then be useless).
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#30 Oliria

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 11:59 PM

So we started again tonight, meet a few RMPs (none really high rated) and what we did was basically what you guys said. Go hard on the rogue, get him to blow some CDs - turtle when necessary (silence mage on burst attempts, intevene, LOS). Normally the second bladestorm is a kill, Hoj on the rogue and go to town.

Other than that we really consistently beat every team tonight (apart from stupid mistakes etc) but most of them was 100-150 MMR below us. Went 19-5 and then I started getting connection problems, it sucked we tried a few games after that, each time standing in IF for 5 mins saying "ok it's good now, no problems", 1 of them ended in a DC and the two other gave me massive spikes.

Needless to say we stopped after that, but overall a really good night. Unfortunately for our rating we lost -14 x 3 in those last 3 games - but whatever that's life.

Hoping to see some higher rated RMPs next time, we still struggled against wizardcleaves with mages tho - even bad ones. Lock/mage/druid means fear/sheep/cyclone on our paladin non-stop, any ideas? whenever we've blown trinkets/sacs the paladin would be constantly CC'ed.

About SS: I would hate to see it get nerfed, it's one of those really good utilities that lets me stay on a target longer.
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#31 Nitestrike

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 09:58 AM

Wouldn't it be better in this case to Divine Sac the warr pre sap? Or will this make them not open on you? I'm thinking the sac will get you out of sap anyway while you would stil have your trinket ready for the next priest fear/mage poly you can't get out of.

Personally we try not to get sapped but if we do we use intervene in such a way that the paladin can last the sap duration and we don't pop sac until the paladin is out of sap and get a good start on the mage or rogue by then. How are others on this one?

Also to Nitestrike:

Like the idea of using wings to get more pressure on them in the opener and perhaps divert attention, but with sac up would the paladin be risking a bit much if they get him in a sticky spot i.e deep freeze etc.?

Also: If the druid cuclones during a HoJ on priest how will this prevent mage cs? You said silence is too risky if he gets cs'ed during a cast, which he still can even if the priest is hammered.. ? Didn't quite get you there.


It would be better to sac before wasting trinket, except in cases where they see sac beforehand and open on you. then its pretty much wasted while I'm stunned, and the warrior can't solo anything. I've used early sacs on Ring of Valor, but I usually prefer to just trinket instead. Trinket seems to have higher chance for me to get the HoJ off on the rogue before he uses his open on the warrior.

And yes, wings can be risky that early, which is why its used when the warrior is at like half hp, rather then when hes at full. Most teams won't do the immediate swap when I wings, unless the warrior is capped out on HP. Need to rememeber the warrior is usually still holding his 2H, not sword and board at this time, so they usually aren't ready to burn down the HP I have remaining even though I have Sac up.

Its a lot more risky vs cleaves, where multiple people are taking heavy damage at the same time. RMP actually takes a bit of time to swap, where my druid also has time to roll hots. Wings generally gives a big target sign on rets since their defensives are weak to start with. It doesn't actually make you any softer. Basically it doesn't change the fact they have a rogue beating on a Prot Paladin.

Also, my druid knows I sac on the open, so when I have wings i have at least a rejuv rolling healing some of the damage, which actually heals a lot since MS won;t be on me before teh swap.

Wizard cleave can get the swap kills if they're really fast with it, but rogues generally won't try any crazy swap with a warrior beating on them.

As for cyclone after HoJ, I've found that if it lands it applies the most pressure. Also, that's the times when hots are most reliably rolling, since priests will purge whenever they are ahead with heals. They can't purge when stunned, which leaves a window to have blooms up before cyclon'ing. Even if spell locked, there should be blooms up so its not a loss even with a full duration CS.
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#32 Sym

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 10:19 AM

i would personally advise against using AW right off the bat against RMP teams. in about 300 games played, i've been the first to die 4 times. one of them was because of chaos bolt (goes right through AD damage reduction [damage is absorbed, not reduced, so AD does nothing], and the proc [so you don't cheat the killing blow]), one of them was because i was an absolute retard (and my team raged on me a little, it was pretty bad), and the other two are from RMP. if they swap to you, and you can't divine protection (yes, do not use DS against RMP for the most part), there's a good possibility that you're going to die.

also, i don't know how you guys are playing RMP, but it's rare for me to get sapped. my warrior usually pops the rogue out with demo shout, or i get a hand of reckoning on one of their team mates after rushing in. if you do get sapped, warrior needs to bait them to get on him with a shield on, so they don't pressure the druid. make them think the warrior is in a bad position, and just wait out the sap. DS and trinket are much too important later in the game to waste in the beginning.

you can never really resort to telling yourself, "i'm going to blow divine sac every time i think a rogue is gonna sap me so i break it easily", because the situation is usually so fluid. i've also never had good success with that strategy in general... any RMP worth their salt will just wait out the sac, and you just wasted a 2 minute cooldown.

as i said before, it's all about the momentum. if they have all the momentum, i'm going to use every cooldown possible to try to give us the upper hand. if we have the momentum, i'm usually willing to eat a sheep or a fear without blowing a cooldown. if you have those cooldowns up when you 100% know you can get a kill, it's really nice (it's not uncommon for me to trinket a frostbolt slow/nova/crippling poision because the rogue ran out of melee range at <20% to get the kill).
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#33 Oliria

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 12:47 AM

shameless bump for great thread with much info - keep it coming
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#34 Lolcute

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 04:45 AM

Yes definately a good thread going here. I'm sorry I haven't been contributing last couple days been doing a lot of stuff. Today we did some more 3v3ing, and I still dont have my 258 2hander. We got 21:4, I dc'ed once, so make that 21:3. We met some scruby teams though but we still upped our rating by 60+ so I'm confident we'll go 2450ish++ when I get my new 2hander.

Much of this thanks to the discussion going on in this thread, we beat a couple rmp's by zerging the rogue/living until second hammer which was the kill in all cases today.

BTW semi off topic but still kinda on it: What weapon spec would the warrior be best off with in this comp? Axe or sword, Got 60% passive arp and 100% with trinket, stats would be something like 32% crit axe 27% crit sword. Also keep in mind axe crits are 5% higher + more deep wounds. But sword proc can crit. Dilemma -.-
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#35 Voitagi

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 06:44 AM

I'm sword, i like it, but a little part of me wishes i went axe. But tbh, they're pretty much equal.
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#36 Oliria

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 02:13 PM

Depends whether or not you like RNG. Overall they're equal, you can always count on Axe specc to work, whereas sword can do absolutely nothing for you or win you a game.

I wish my team was more active, we're having a hard time climbing the ladder, only playing very late weekdays so we haven't meet anyone at our own MMR for weeks, you know how it is: +6, +4, +7, +4, -17, +3, +6, +7, -14...

It's a slow grind
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#37 Lolcute

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 04:39 PM

Well Oliria if you always win vs the lowbies you still gain :P We gained 60 rating this week farming lowlols :P
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#38 Oliria

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 10:22 PM

Well Oliria if you always win vs the lowbies you still gain :P We gained 60 rating this week farming lowlols :P


Very true, we gained 80 rating this week by going 19-5, then my connection started failing, we tried 3 more games to see if it would stabilize. It didn't, we dropped 42 rating those 3 games.

Should we have stopped the moment I got connection issues? properly, would we? no because we can only play a very limited amount of time each week.

btw it would be fun to meet you Lolcute, we've meet a mirror once (we won :P) but it's not very common. Guess you don't play after midnight weekdays?
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#39 Lolcute

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 03:17 AM

...
btw it would be fun to meet you Lolcute, we've meet a mirror once (we won :P) but it's not very common. Guess you don't play after midnight weekdays?


Yeah would be, appart from the fact that you outgear me with your nasty runestone and twirling, and the hc plantestalker's I haven't gotten yet.. :P and dun forgets 258 weapon HAIL WEDNESDAY WOOOOO<3 its cumin i can feel it in my grasp alreadeh:p

We play whenever we can basically. Lately we're been doing alot of 5s instead of 3v3 to get the team rating closer to mmr :P a tough farm that is with rampage/saccage ques in 5s bracket..

Dunno how the game would go tbh, would be a long one I reccon.
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#40 Oliria

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 11:45 AM

Yeah would be, appart from the fact that you outgear me with your nasty runestone and twirling, and the hc plantestalker's I haven't gotten yet.. :P and dun forgets 258 weapon HAIL WEDNESDAY WOOOOO<3 its cumin i can feel it in my grasp alreadeh:p

We play whenever we can basically. Lately we're been doing alot of 5s instead of 3v3 to get the team rating closer to mmr :P a tough farm that is with rampage/saccage ques in 5s bracket..

Dunno how the game would go tbh, would be a long one I reccon.


Could say the same about your paladin, since ours don't do ANY PvE, the only gear he can get is from daily heroic badges.

I don't the game would be that long, just like every other cleave vs cleave. It's not like the paladin has alot less damage, and warrior/druid is still as killable.
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