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[Druid/Paladin/Warrior] Resto Druid / Prot-ret Paladin / Arms warrior VS RMP


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#1 Lolcute

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 01:08 AM

:druid::paladin::warrior: VS :mage::rogue::priest:

So basically our arms ret restodruid comp got owned too much so we decided to jump on the skilltrain and let the paladin go protret for more survivability and utility.

Upped our mmr by around 300 and we're now playing above 2250 (finally... :rolleyes:)

We met 1 team that consistantly keeps us from going above 2.3k tho. RMP. We really have no idea how to play vs them they always open on me (the arms warrior) and do switches to the druid that is just not livable even with sacrifices (hand and divine) from the paladin.

The few times we have won however by turtling them through their cooldowns. Having me crippling the mage damage and ooming them down slowly and the paladin stunsealing their rogue/silencing mage (our healer never goes oom if he isnt getting burned in like RoV etc). We still don't feel it's the best way to go about though as RMPs above 2.3k wont let us do this and keep killing the druid in a switch like 1 minute or 2 into the game.

Me and the protret are both in almost best in slot gear for our setup apart from 258 weaps that we're getting next week but it's not excactly our pressure that keeps us from getting there vs RMPs.. The druid is also decently geared with 1 relent 3 furious 1 deadly and 258 weap.

Sooo wall of text ended, quick summary: I try to mitigate mage dmg by sbashing and overpowering, get novaed while paladin gets sheeped and druid gets a hardswitch = loss. Pretty much every time. Any tips?

Also a sidenote: best way of avoiding saps on paladin on other maps than RoV.
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#2 Lolcute

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 07:21 AM

Bump cuz we need this.
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#3 Zaul

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 07:55 AM

Also a sidenote: best way of avoiding saps on paladin on other maps than RoV.


2 Options that I can think of:

1) Have him roll engineering for the rocketgloves, extremely long range will help with a lot of teams/maps.

2) Intervene him as the game starts, try to stay as close to him as possible as to not leave intervene range and run into them with him (at least within 30 yards, taunt range, or within 45ish for rocketgloves). Since you're undead you can break the sap easily and still have wotf left for a fear.

Don't really know about the other stuff since I have no experience with your comp, ret saving the sacs for when he sees those switches coming is kind of a given though. :)
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#4 Lolcute

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 08:19 AM

Thank's for the reply, anyone with experience with this setup or the arms ret dru (not protret) that has anything more vs rmp in general? How to open, what to focus on, main prios for each one of us etc, would be greatly appreciated.
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#5 Lolcute

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 03:28 PM

BUMP ^
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#6 Neloangelo

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 03:51 PM

Have the paladin avoid sap, don't get opened on as the warrior without a shield and in DStance if they are going for you repeatedly. Even have the paladin use his shield to prevent the shatter from the mage when you're in kidney etc and can't reflect, but make sure he saves hoj for the priest.

Get priest to trinket and use pain suppression. Kill him 1 minute later when you have Bladestorm and HoJ up if you have used them, less if not. Good teams will be able to prevent this from happening, I would imagine a lot won't.
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#7 Lolcute

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 05:32 PM

Ye he is protret so he can't freedom kidneys/deep freezes. Not sure if the hammer switch to the priest is exactly the way we need to be going as we're basically on our heels 90% of the fight (this means all the time appart from when my freedom isnt dispelled yet -.-).

We will try it though thanks for the input :)

Anyone else here running protadin smash with or without arms/restoDruid? Preferrably someone beating rmps above 2.3k :P I realize there are few of us running this comp but it's just so incredibly sad how bad our win ratio is vs rmp compared to other teams. We have a 2:1 win ratio on average, and a 1:5 or worse vs rmp, meaning we have something like 4:1 vs other teams. I'm completely serious here, all other teams at 2.3k mmr are piece of cake only those rmps holding us back from going higher.

Pls teach:o
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#8 Ayvix

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 06:59 PM

We train the mage to control damage as much as possible. I spend most of the game giving Freedom to the Warrior, cleansing Psychic Scream off my Druid, and trying to cleanse myself out of snares. I saved Avenger's Shield for whenever the Mage would otherwise get a clear cast off.

If the Rogue has his trinket down, if possible we make a quick swap to him with HoJ, and if he doesn't die in 10~ seconds, head back to Mage. RMP and good caster cleaves are the bane of this comp, but they're winnable.
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#9 Sym

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:58 PM

we sit on the rogue the entire game. if the mage is absolutely wrecking somebody, you need to throw your shield at him.
my druid throws cyclones out on the mage/priest the entire game. cleanse the soft counterspell (they should juke obviously), and once you get a priest trinket (it'll come eventually, you're tearing the rogue up), wait for DR on cyclone on the priest and cyclone him again, and then blow up the rogue. sometimes i don't hammer the rouge and instead follow with a hammer on the priest, giving us a 12 second rogue kill window, which pretty much means that with bladestorm and my damage, the rogue is going to die.

it's also far less frustrating than sitting on a frost mage until someone dies in a shatter combo.
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#10 Lolcute

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 01:30 AM

Thanks to you two guys for responding to my pms and posting in this thread. However we are currently doing what Ayvix is saying allthough we are as sym says still dying in shatters eventually when we can't.. oom the mage/priest. Good teams (above 2.4mmr) wreck us early tho.

I like your approach Sym, we'll test it out allthough I don't think we'll survive mage burst while doing so guessing we save shieldthrow for mage if he does get too much dmg out.

However, how do you deal with poly's on the protret while training down the rogue? Live throug them to dr's with intervenes and SRing the shatters when not stunned? IF we would do this I have the feeling I would die in a shatter or the druid would die in a shatter while the protret is sheeped.

EDIT: To Ayvix; we are actually beating most spellcleaves by los abusing and having me go shield 90% of the fight overpowering shieldbashing reflecting dmg and we eventually land a kill on any of the 2 dps.
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#11 Sym

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 01:47 AM

I like your approach Sym, we'll test it out allthough I don't think we'll survive mage burst while doing so guessing we save shieldthrow for mage if he does get too much dmg out.

However, how do you deal with poly's on the protret while training down the rogue? Live throug them to dr's with intervenes and SRing the shatters when not stunned? IF we would do this I have the feeling I would die in a shatter or the druid would die in a shatter while the protret is sheeped.


sitting on the rogue if they're on the druid will probably help your druid more than if you were trying to train the rogue. give the druid freedom, and there's no way the rogue is going to be able to catch them. if they're on the warrior, he should have a shield on and they shouldn't really be able to kill him very easily.

i'll get my partners to comment in this thread because a lot of the strategy involves what they're doing as well.
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#12 Lolcute

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 02:42 AM

That would be awsome, the comments from your partners.

I suppose stopping rogue can get us an edge too yeah, BUT we still don't have a reliable way of stopping him from reaching the druid with poly on paladin and nova on warr :/
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#13 Lolcute

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 04:19 AM

Bumping this thread up as it's got some goodies in it :) and possibly some unanswered questions, allthough I guess it mostly comes down to our play now that we have a clue what to start with.

On a sidenote:

Protret protwarr restoD

Could it be viable?
I think it would perform ok for us as our druid, literally, does not go oom no matter what (except for manaburns while stunned) and it may just be what we would need vs rmp. Think it would do more than well enough vs spellcleaves and meleezergs as well. Lack of ms being it's downfall when trying to gib pesky plate teams with 32k hp ub.

COMMENT

(please dont name it with some moron name just yet)
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#14 Oliria

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 03:35 PM

We play war/protret/druid aswell, and we've tried both the suggested strategies on RMP. Sometimes training the mage can win games, but against very good RMP (2400+) we will die before this pays off.

Last week (we've only played war/protret/druid for 4 weeks, playing with ret before) we tried training the rogue for a few games. We played 2 games vs a 2550 RMP and actually won one of them by training the rogue. Idea was the sit rogue most of the game, interupt mage in hairy situations and obviously peel/turtle when needed.

It was still a really hard game, me (war) sitting under 10% HP several times, but after 3 mins the rogue was out of CDs and we killed him with cyclones on the priest. During the game cyclones was mostly cast on the mage, switching to priest when DR kicked in.

RMP is hard, but beatable. Wizardcleaves with mages seems way harder for us.
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#15 Voitagi

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 06:00 PM

As Sym said, we usually just sit on the rogue. I'll just throw in little tips to help you better understand whats going on outside of rogue training.

As the warrior...

If you are getting focused, piercing howl the rogue to slow him and intervene, intercept, or charge(can charge the mage to interupt) out of range of the rogue. This allows wound to drop off so your druid can catch up on heals. You usually don't have to worry about charging back to the rogue because he'll most likely come to you. Try to save your trinket for a stun they use on you where you think you might die.

Do not use all of your defensive cooldowns at the same time, its a rookie mistake that you will pay for later in the fight.

Sym does an excellent job of keeping me from sitting in CCs to long. The less time the warrior is in a cc, the more control you have over the rogue or mage's movement if they are on another target.

Positioning is key, be very careful if you are fighting in the middle. A good rmp can kill someone in a couple globals. The more you can LoS, the less cooldowns you'll have to use.

Another thing I'll leave you with is...try and keep the priest away from your druid. It can be tough at times, but a well timed fear can end the game.

I'll see if we can get our druid to post what he does during the fight.

Oh, and save your bladestorm until you are pretty sure you can kill the rogue, you will need it. Make sure the rogue and priest have both already trinketed. Use it when the pally hammers the rogue and the priest is CC'd.
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#16 Lolcute

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 02:30 AM

Thanks for the input guys will have more time to reply tomorrow at work, BUMP
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#17 Lolcute

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Posted 25 October 2009 - 02:40 PM

By Oliria

RMP is hard, but beatable. Wizardcleaves with mages seems way harder for us.

We have a pretty good ratio against wizcleave, ua'ing the lock and dispelling immolates/flameshocks/novas depending on the comp. The mages can't access the druid as well as they can when there is no rogue to lock him down. We play this comp max turtle though with well timed sacs and lots of LOS ing.

@Voitagi
Thanks for taking the time to give much valued input here. I'm thinking we aren't giving the rogue a hard enough time. Also I usually spend my first bladestorm when my first freedom wears off as long as it means I can get 2 of them in it where at least one of them has MS up. Often out of certain shatters etc.

After the initial opener from the rmp I'm usually turtling with shield for a bit too long though I think, as I'm literally not gaining hp for 10-15 secs even after kidney because of the nuke, but this is mainly because the rogue in good rmp's doesn't get shouted out and our paladin can't really help taking some of the saps. Should I be intervening the druid and LOSing for 60%+ hp before charging back to the mage for the interrupt then?

As many of the rmp's are all undead I'm not really feeling my fear has much more value than making them global and interrupting casts vs undead rmps. But vs alliance/other races, when do you usually blow your warrior fear?

Another issue is where does the paladin silence go? We find that the damage it does (our paladin is pretty awsome geared) is kind of making us not want to use it on the priest, ever. We use it pretty early on the mage to stop a shatter or a polymorph that can't be overpowered/or sac is up(poly). Also vs other teams, should the silence be used like strangulate on their healers while for example their.. say warrior is going down in a hammer bladestorm. Or are you adding the 3-5k dmg from it to the warrior (holy dmg is awsome) to keep him from getting healed through.

Also last thing I can think of right now are the constant threat of counterspells while cycloning. Our druid does very rarely cyclone vs rmp because a 10 sec cs while I am below 70% which I am most of the time anyway, means I will go down or at least have to S-wall it. So my question is, do you have some fancy routine where you call out intercepts on mage where the druid gets his second free to cyclone as the mage is unaware for the moment, or do you mainly just fake cyclone-> eat 4 sec softcs -> cyclone?

I probably got tons of more questions but this should do for now, all help is much appreciated. We just want our glad ;) none of us ever had it :(
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#18 Oliria

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Posted 25 October 2009 - 10:40 PM

We normally don't have problems against lock/ele cleaves, outside of lucky crits that globals someone. But lock/mage teams are hard for us. What to do? can't let the warlock freecast, but can you let the mage freecast? split damage? not really working for us.

Fears/sheeps/novas/DFs/Cs/pet-silence hell even banish. Mages aren't easy to get, freedom gets spellstolen. Warlocks are easier to stay on, but then the inevitable sheeps...

Against RMPs we still have the most succes by training the rogue, silence and cyclones on the mages if we're not going for a kill. I'm usually very defensive against RMPs, intervening out to gain HP and then charging/intercepting in to damage the rogue. You can tell when RMPs are gonna do a burst (vanish/DF) so be prepared with CDs. Sadly enough you're gonna lose if you can't pressure them to be defensive or get a kill on the rogue in due time. It's a trade of CDs, if they run out you can win - but if you run out they will win.

We haven't played for 2 weeks but getting back into action next week, looking forward to it and will return with whatever experience we'll have with RMPs (and other teams)
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#19 Lolcute

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 12:17 AM

Today:
4 wins vs cleave and unholy/survival/pala ~around our mmr
1 loss vs rmp ~2070 or so..

Team rating? Unchanged
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#20 Voitagi

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 05:16 AM

After the initial opener from the rmp I'm usually turtling with shield for a bit too long though I think, as I'm literally not gaining hp for 10-15 secs even after kidney because of the nuke, but this is mainly because the rogue in good rmp's doesn't get shouted out and our paladin can't really help taking some of the saps. Should I be intervening the druid and LOSing for 60%+ hp before charging back to the mage for the interrupt then?


I would, or this may not be a bad time to shield block the rogue and spell reflect the mage. If you are dismantled or you think you have a slight chance of dying, definitely intervene the druid. These situations rely heavily on positioning, if the mage is near melee range, you can shield bash(assuming you are not dismantled) and you're golden.

Another thing real quick semi on topic because I know many warriors don't do this. Don't be afraid to dps while D'd up. Shield slam from an arms warrior, while not amazing, is not bad damage. When I'm D'd and still in the fight, I like to keep MS up and shield slam(along with normal overpower rotations and revenge). Thit way they aren't taking out my damage completely by focusing the warrior, which is usually the point of sitting on the warrior.

As many of the rmp's are all undead I'm not really feeling my fear has much more value than making them global and interrupting casts vs undead rmps. But vs alliance/other races, when do you usually blow your warrior fear?


If I am being focused and would like to save my cooldowns, I will blow fear if my druid calls out he is CS'd, cc'd, or anything else that could keep me from getting heals. Always try and fear the mage with the rogue, not just the rogue. Every now and then though, you get desperate and have to.

My ideal goal with fear though, is to save it for switches against my druid. Even if they are undead, it still gives half a second to a second for him to get another hot up or get los.


Another issue is where does the paladin silence go? We find that the damage it does (our paladin is pretty awsome geared) is kind of making us not want to use it on the priest, ever. We use it pretty early on the mage to stop a shatter or a polymorph that can't be overpowered/or sac is up(poly). Also vs other teams, should the silence be used like strangulate on their healers while for example their.. say warrior is going down in a hammer bladestorm. Or are you adding the 3-5k dmg from it to the warrior (holy dmg is awsome) to keep him from getting healed through.


TBH, I'm not quite sure the reasoning our pally puts behind his silence. If I'm right, he'll use it most of the time to avoid large bursts against us for survivability and offensively if its up during a burst from our team when a silence on the healer is not necessary. He'll have to post and clarify.

Also last thing I can think of right now are the constant threat of counterspells while cycloning. Our druid does very rarely cyclone vs rmp because a 10 sec cs while I am below 70% which I am most of the time anyway, means I will go down or at least have to S-wall it. So my question is, do you have some fancy routine where you call out intercepts on mage where the druid gets his second free to cyclone as the mage is unaware for the moment, or do you mainly just fake cyclone-> eat 4 sec softcs -> cyclone?


I believe our druid fake casts cyclone to catch a soft counterspell. He always calls out his cyclones so I know what might happen next, the second he gets blanketed with a soft CS, He calls it out and I look for a way out, whether is SW or a movement out of range of rogue, los of mage, or interupting the mage.

I probably got tons of more questions but this should do for now, all help is much appreciated. We just want our glad ;) none of us ever had it :(


Keep em coming =)
I'll see if our druid wants to drop his 2 cents in the thread. Also, if I say something that you think would be better done another way, don't be afraid to bring it up. I'm just saying what I do/what is running through my mind at the time. There might be a better way to do something.
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