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Scourge Strike redesigned


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#21 Azlinn

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 12:41 AM

This change makes us even more dependent on diseases, which I'm all for except that abolish disease and cleansing totem will be even better against us. Maybe they'll finally just remove automatic no thought required cleansing?
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#22 bighandxyz

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 03:56 AM

confused by wording. does that mean the 50% wep dmg is counted as physical, then there are another additional physical dmg + shadow bonus?

or is 50% wep dmg shadow.

tbh i don't see it being the second case
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#23 Dennis

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 03:46 PM

Scourge Strike: Redesigned. The base ability now deals 50% weapon damage plus an additional amount as physical damage. However, for each disease the death knight has on the target, the target will take additional shadow damage equal to 25% of the physical damage done.

discuss ._.


this s a @!$%ing low blow to unholy DKs, the same thing bliz did to frost.

This cuts the damage of SC stike into 2 parts, 1 magic, 1 physical, both parts add up to the full effect. this means that for the new SC strike to generate as much burst as the old one did, it would mean that both part of this damage has to crit at the same time to do what 1 crit can do for the old stike. this is like the frost strike nerf since they cut froststrike into 2 parts MH and OH, and u cant do 2h frost for the same amount of damage as before.

i really wonder tho, after this RNG cut for DKs, what does our class have left that other classes cant make up.
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My Dk is so OP, that david copperfield died in my anti-magic zone.

#24 Elraen

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 04:06 PM

What an unnecessary change. This could have just been avoided by buffing the damage back up. They've severely over-complicating this.

Developer A: Hey guys, there's a 3-inch deep, 4 foot wide still-water creek over there. How should we cross it?
Developer B: Well, we could swing across it on a rope.
Developer C: No, no, no-we need to build a bridge.
Developer D: Couldn't we just...walk through it? It's only 3 inches deep. Hell, we could jump across it-it's only 4 feet wide.
Developer A: Yeah, right. You're stupid. Hey C, tell me more about that bridge idea...
Developer D: Srsly? In the time we've sat here discussing how to cross the creek, we all could have been across already. Why are we even discussing this?
Developer A: You're fired, D.
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#25 Trafik

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 06:38 PM

Anyone else experiencing extremely low bugged SS dmg on PTR? Seems almost like rank 4 is doing rank 1 damage or something.

I got a 2791 SS crit on the training dummy in UP with all 3 Diseases, HoW and FC+Greatness proc'd.

SS Hits around 1100 with the same buffs =\.
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#26 Gurren

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 07:24 PM

It's currently bugged.
Guess no one follows other forums.
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#27 Nex

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 09:18 PM

I find it very likely to have the regular "bug" with all proc on damage abilities, namely that it will be based on the damage you actually deal AFTER shields (ignote, necrosis, etc).

And yes, this is blizzard overcompensating instead of simply going back on an ill thought out and implemented nerf to scourge strike.

Why not just rebuff it to pre 3.2 levels? I mean what's the damned point with 9% talented crit in blood and this complete revamp when the core problem was something they themselves made when they nerfed scourge strike too much to begin with.
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57 post deletes and a few bans and a few infractions. Keep it up and the punishment will keep coming. The anti-DK shit isn't cool or funny, its just obnoxious. Discuss the topic without being total shitheads please.


#28 Gurren

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 09:33 PM

Because it ignored armor, SS was rather lackluster vs sub plate levels of armor. And because it was almost ok vs plate they couldn't very well make it do more damage to cloth,leather and mail.
Because then it would be doing too much to plate.
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#29 Ghazuk

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 09:35 PM

you cant buff it back to pre 3.2 because of new weapons
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#30 Elraen

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 10:09 PM

you cant buff it back to pre 3.2 because of new weapons


Sure you can. The resil buff changed the game quite a bit. Our SS damage pre-3.2 was pretty balanced (when you compare it that of every other class). There was no real reason to nerf it.

Are you suggesting that, every time a new tier of weapon comes out, they completely redesign the way DKs do damage? The model on the PTR just confounds the problem. We're a semi-magical, semi-physical who the fuck knows what-trying to balance all the stats we need to be competitive is going to be a nightmare and a detriment to the class.
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#31 Azlinn

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 10:32 PM

Sure you can. The resil buff changed the game quite a bit. Our SS damage pre-3.2 was pretty balanced (when you compare it that of every other class). There was no real reason to nerf it.

Are you suggesting that, every time a new tier of weapon comes out, they completely redesign the way DKs do damage? The model on the PTR just confounds the problem. We're a semi-magical, semi-physical who the fuck knows what-trying to balance all the stats we need to be competitive is going to be a nightmare and a detriment to the class.


pre 3.2 SS damage was insane. I would regularly crit warriors in d stance for over 7k with a 244 weapon and 3.8k ap. This change is actually pretty good if they fix our cleansing issues. It opens up much more gear opens for us in pvp. Getting ARP pieces instead of crit might actually be the way to go, and since most classes are going to be using a mixed set of pvp and pve gear it'll open up more options for us there too. One of the main reasons I never even bothered to pick up 4 pc t9 was because the ARP on the legs was completely useless. To me it didn't feel it was worth dropping 330+ res on 4pc when one was very bad for unholy.
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#32 Deathlygnome

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 11:55 PM

pre 3.2 SS damage was insane. I would regularly crit warriors in d stance for over 7k with a 244 weapon and 3.8k ap.


With the same gear, Greatness, Cinderglacier, and the warrior being in zerker stance with recklessness popped I would crit for around 7.5k.

Same AP too.

Halp my DK back then I guess?
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#33

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 02:06 AM

I just checked back and my numbers make no sense at all. I was completely dumb.

PTR :

0-disease Scourge Strike : 60% weapon damage
FF Scourge Strike : 76,5% weapon damage
BP Scourge Strike : 84,15% weapon damage
EP Scourge Strike : 78,45% weapon damage
FF + BP Scourge Strike : 102,3% weapon damage
FF + EP Scourge Strike : 96,9% weapon damage
BP + EP Scourge Strike : 106,59% weapon damage
3-disease Scourge Strike : 126,89% weapon damage

And that's it. Quite easier to read~
The formula is quite easy to render into spreadsheets.
A2 is 0 or 1 for Frost Fever, B2 is Blood Plague, C2 is Ebon Plague, D2 is weapon damage (100 there)

=1,2*(1+0,1*B2)*((0,5*D2)+(1,1+0,13*C2)*(0,25*A2*(0,5*D2)+0,25*B2*(0,5*D2)+0,25*C2*(0,5*D2)))



edit : ran some comaprisons with live SS scaling. It's GOD AWFUL.

0-disease Scourge Strike -> +7,2% Weapon Damage, Relative Difference is +13,64%.
Turns out to be better when the target has less than 2077 armor.
FF Scourge Strike -> +18,42% Weapon Damage, Relative Difference is +31,71%.
Turns out to be better when the target has less than 4830 armor.
BP Scourge Strike -> +20,26% Weapon Damage, Relative Difference is +31,71%.
Turns out to be better when the target has less than 4830 armor.
EP Scourge Strike -> +12,82% Weapon Damage, Relative Difference is +19,53%.
Turns out to be better when the target has less than 2975 armor.
FF + BP Scourge Strike -> +32,6% Weapon Damage, Relative Difference is +46,78%.
Turns out to be better when the target has less than 7125 armor.
FF + EP Scourge Strike -> +25,3% Weapon Damage, Relative Difference is +35,34%.
Turns out to be better when the target has less than 5383 armor.
BP + EP Scourge Strike -> +27,83% Weapon Damage, Relative Difference is +35,34%.
Turns out to be better when the target has less than 5383 armor.
3-disease Scourge Strike -> +41,57% Weapon Damage, Relative Difference is +48,72%.
Turns out to be better when the target has less than 7420 armor.
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#34 Azlinn

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 02:10 AM

With the same gear, Greatness, Cinderglacier, and the warrior being in zerker stance with recklessness popped I would crit for around 7.5k.

Same AP too.

Halp my DK back then I guess?


you're saying you only crit for 7.5k with 20% from cinderglacier, 5% from the stance, and 20% from reck? lol you can stop lying now, it really doesn't do any good.

I played against the highest war/driud in my bg pre 3.2, and my damage along with my priests random holy fire + smite would keep the warrior in dstance the entire match. I have screenshots of a game played vrs them, and it was a 2 minute match and I had done over 120k dmg. Druid 100k healing, and my priest did 50k dmg. Warrior did a pitful 12k because of how much dmg SS was doing.

You think that dmg was balanced? Yeah, right.
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#35 Takanit

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 02:12 AM

Seems like a lot of people have a selective memory.

Scourge strike before 3.2 hit very hard and it had a pretty good crit rate, especially with 2pc t7. You could literally gib someone if you got a good crit or two.

I don't think the resilience change alone would've been enough, then again it has been nerfed too much. Some middle ground would be nice.
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#36 Trafik

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 02:25 AM

agreed that the pre 3.2 ss was too strong, and it certainly needed a damage nerf. I personally thought they may have went slightly far at first, but with better and better weapons i'd say the current SS dmg is fine.

Now some other classes might need their dmg and/or burst toned down, but I don't think that's any justification to make SS way too strong again.
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#37 Deathlygnome

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 02:45 AM

You think that dmg was balanced? Yeah, right.


I don't recall saying it was balanced, I only said that I didn't crit that hard on a warrior in D stance, nor did I rarely crit that hard at all, it was usually 6.5k with a cinderglacier.
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#38

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 02:55 AM

3-disease Scourge Strike -> +41,57% Weapon Damage, Relative Difference is +48,72%.
Turns out to be better when the target has less than 7420 armor.
Posted Image

We're completely screwed in terms of scaling.
Bonuses are a bit better on the new SS... Sigil of Awareness adds 479,63 damage on PTR on a 3-disease SS compared to 403,13 on live.
Yay..
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#39 agallockz

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 03:00 AM

Get yo theory on, I cant believe you bother to do this shit. I can barely be bothered moving the 7 different cups on my desk to the kitchen sink, let alone theory the shit out of an ability that probably wont even go live as it currently is on ptr. But hey, what ever floats your boat.

ps. (not saying its not helpful)
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#40 Azlinn

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 08:54 AM

3-disease Scourge Strike -> +41,57% Weapon Damage, Relative Difference is +48,72%.
Turns out to be better when the target has less than 7420 armor.
Posted Image

We're completely screwed in terms of scaling.
Bonuses are a bit better on the new SS... Sigil of Awareness adds 479,63 damage on PTR on a 3-disease SS compared to 403,13 on live.
Yay..


The latest posts on ej are saying the shadow damage will probably be based off the physical damage dealt BEFORE armor.

http://elitistjerks....ding_dream/p33/

Looking at 30% reduction:

SS with 3.3 will be 50% x 0.7 + 37.5% x 1.13 = 77.375 % x 1.2 = 92.85 %
SS with 3.2.2 is 40% x 1.3 x 1.13 = 58.76 % x 1.2 = 70.51 %
SS was 45% x 1.3 x 1.13 = 67.63 % x 1.2 = 81.16 %
SS with 50% (just to compare) 50% x 1.3 x 1.13 = 73.45 % x 1.2 = 88.14 %

OB (not glyphed) is 80% x 0.7 x 1.375 = 77%
OB (glyphed) is 80% x 0.7 x 1.375 x 1.2 = 92.4%

Looking at 50% reduction: (Shaman)

SS with 3.3 will be 50% x 0.5 + 37.5% x 1.13 = 67.375 % x 1.2 = 80.85 %
SS with 3.2.2 is 40% x 1.3 x 1.13 = 58.76 % x 1.2 = 70.51 %
SS was 45% x 1.3 x 1.13 = 67.63 % x 1.2 = 81.16 %
SS with 50% (just to compare) 50% x 1.3 x 1.13 = 73.45 % x 1.2 = 88.14 %


Looking at 60% reduction: (Paladin)

SS with 3.3 will be 50% x 0.4 + 37.5% x 1.13 = 62.375 % x 1.2 = 74.85 %
SS with 3.2.2 is 40% x 1.3 x 1.13 = 58.76 % x 1.2 = 70.51 %
SS was 45% x 1.3 x 1.13 = 67.63 % x 1.2 = 81.16 %
SS with 50% (just to compare) 50% x 1.3 x 1.13 = 73.45 % x 1.2 = 88.14 %


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