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#21 Sym

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 09:42 PM

not true


we've lost 2 games out of 250 because i was the first one to die (and none of them couldn't have been prevented from me playing better).

so 99.5% unkillable.
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#22 Nitestrike

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 10:11 PM

Yup, as prot you can't help ur team or you will be oom, so all you do is less dmg than your warrior and your pretty much a wall that can't be kill.


That's what happens when you turn off auto attack and use no abilities and Divine Plea duration runs out.

Easy Fix.
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#23 Sym

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 10:26 PM

That's what happens when you turn off auto attack and use no abilities and Divine Plea duration runs out.

Easy Fix.


yeah... divine plea is pretty much up 100% of the time except against some rmp/warlock teams. it's usually not up when you're getting focused, but that's what SA is for.
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#24 EpiTeK

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 04:56 PM

yeah... divine plea is pretty much up 100% of the time except against some rmp/warlock teams. it's usually not up when you're getting focused, but that's what SA is for.


Except prm and lock teams, lol? That's when you need to dispell the most, anytime that have a brain and can cc will make your divine plea run out.

edit: You should try ret with t2 weapon, burst isn't even comparable to prot/ret
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#25 Idgit

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 08:34 PM

Yea because prot/ret has no manaregen compared to rets, ohh wait JK 100% uptime on divine plea!

Prot/ret has exacly the same utility as ret, no repentance but avenger shield and 20s cd stun. They're unkillable and with divine plea unlimited mana. Substained damage is a little lower but the burst is the same.


If you don't play paladin you probably shouldn't comment. Deal?
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#26 Sym

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 09:27 PM

Except prm and lock teams, lol? That's when you need to dispell the most, anytime that have a brain and can cc will make your divine plea run out.

edit: You should try ret with t2 weapon, burst isn't even comparable to prot/ret



if you realize you're going to have mana issues in a fight, you can conserve mana and still be reasonably effective.

it's sort of a moot point though. PMR games are usually over before mana has the chance to become an issue. if they aren't, we usually have the upper hand anyway.

lock teams? affliction locks are pretty much unlimited mana (and pets to whack too, keep DP up), and destruction locks usually throw something up on me or hit me with a nuke to keep me from running OOM. against lock teams, it is much less of an issue than PMR.

^i'm of course talking about the mana received from SA
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#27 Veet

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 09:45 PM

A Comparison of Ret vs. Prot/Ret based on rated 2v2 on the PTR.

I used full Relentless gear on Ret with a few offpieces for hit. For Prot/Ret I used 2 piece tier 9 (legs and helm) both have very high Shield Block Value, the rest of the gear was mostly Relentless, and Strength offpieces in all slots. The stats were very close, both have similar AP and SP, Prot has more Stam, 2600 Shield Block Value, as well as defense and some avoidance stats. Ret had slightly more crit.


When you compared the two specs they basically play the same with very similar abilities. I'll compare the abilities:

Shield of Righteousness (SR) vs. Crusader Strike (CS) - Both short cooldown single target damage, CS has a lower cooldown but SR does way more damage and does holy damage.

Hammer of Righteousness (HR) vs. Divine Storm (DS) - Both AOE damage, DS has a much longer cooldown and does less damage because HR is all holy damage.

Prot Judgments vs. Ret Judgments - Rets have an edge on damage and cooldown. Rets also have higher white hits and seal procs.

Avenger's Shield (AS) vs. AoW Exorcism - 30 second cooldown, instant, ranged attack that silences and snares or a 15 second cooldown, instant, ranged attack. AS hits way harder.

There are subtle differences between the two playstyles, Ret has Divine Purpose, Art of War, and is able to throw out more heals. Prot has more survivability, more offensive utility, and arguably more damage.

When you look at the big picture, the three big drawbacks to Ret are lack of snare, lack of interrupt, and lack of healing debuff. Prot makes up for two of these with just 1 ability. Prot damage is also entirely Holy, which completely negates armor and BoPs.

Possible bias and confounding factors. The PTR is extremely laggy, there were times when I could not hit targets that were right in front of me due to lag. This biases Prot because of the snare and lower CD stuns which allowed for more damage time on targets.

Conclusion / TLDR: Prot/Ret and Ret have similar playstyles, with Prot possessing more survivability, more offensive utility and more damage.
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#28 Veet

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 10:06 PM

My personal opinion is that this spec should be nerfed.
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#29 Sym

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 10:44 PM

why do you think it should be nerfed? just because it's better than ret doesn't mean it is an overpowered spec. maybe the solution is to fix retribution rather than allow a protection spec to be better at pvp. just think about it, and allow yourself to wonder how blizzard has destroyed ret so badly that you can achieve better results in the same gear (minus weapon obviously) as a spec that was intended for tanking (and never even intended for competitive pvp!).

a better course of action is to fix retribution rather than nerf something that isn't broken.
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#30 Veet

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 11:34 PM

I think the community and Blizzard believe Ret is fine in its current state, whether or not this is true is debatable. While I sympathize with you on the matter of what Blizzard has made Ret into, the fact remains that Prot is better at doing what Ret is intended to do.

Leaving the Ret issues aside, should a Tanking spec be viable as a healer and more viable than a DPS spec in Arena PVP?

That's not a rhetorical question, I'm interested in hearing opinions. More viable specs leads to more diversity and overall better gameplay. On the other hand, Paladins currently have 4 competitive PVP specs, when you compare that to other classes this is unfair.
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#31 Idgit

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 12:35 AM

Conclusion / TLDR: Prot/Ret and Ret have similar playstyles, with Prot possessing more survivability, more offensive utility and more damage.


WOW!! What an amazing and in-depth empirical analysis you've conducted. This must be why there are so many dps prot paladins in arena......


I'd really like to know where people get the notion that prot specs shouldn't be viable in arena. Does anybody even realize that prot has a total of ONE talent that gives them additionaly survivability over ret?
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#32 Veet

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 12:55 AM

WOW!! What an amazing and in-depth empirical analysis you've conducted. This must be why there are so many dps prot paladins in arena......


I appreciate the sarcasm, you apparently stopped reading the thread and ignored my posts afterward.

There aren't many Prot paladins because it is still on the verge of becoming FOTM, not to mention it does require a few PVE pieces to be really good. Simply put, the masses don't know about it yet.

I'd really like to know where people get the notion that prot specs shouldn't be viable in arena. Does anybody even realize that prot has a total of ONE talent that gives them additionaly survivability over ret?


I never claimed it shouldn't be viable in arena, I'm pointing out that it does a better job at doing what Ret is intended to do.

As for only 1 survivability talent, you are flat out wrong.

Here is a list of talents that increase survivability:

Divine Guardian - Extra Sacred shield absorption
Toughness - 10% extra armor
Improved Devotion Aura - Armor and increased healing
Blessing of Sanctuary - 3% damage reduction
Sacred Duty - 8% extra stamina
Ardent Defender - Damage reduction and a cheat death
Holy Shield - Blocking
Combat Expertise - 6% extra stamina
Guarded by the Light - 6% spell damage reduction
Shield of the Templar - 3% damage reduction
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#33 Idgit

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:03 AM

Blessing of Sanctuary - 3% damage reduction
Sacred Duty - 8% extra stamina
Holy Shield - Blocking
Combat Expertise - 6% extra stamina
Guarded by the Light - 6% spell damage reduction
Shield of the Templar - 3% damage reduction


I won't even regard a shitsplat amount of stamina and spell damage reduction. Block? yeahhhhhh. Those above talents are easily compensated by Divine Favor and AoW in the ret tree.


Divine Guardian - Extra Sacred shield absorption
Toughness - 10% extra armor
Improved Devotion Aura - Armor and increased healing

^These talents are definitely not available to ret paladins.

it does a better job at doing what Ret is intended to do.


Perhaps they're intended to do the same job in arena?



Looks like you arena as ret even though you're keen to this cutting edge FoTM
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#34 Sym

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:13 AM

I think the community and Blizzard believe Ret is fine in its current state, whether or not this is true is debatable. While I sympathize with you on the matter of what Blizzard has made Ret into, the fact remains that Prot is better at doing what Ret is intended to do.

Leaving the Ret issues aside, should a Tanking spec be viable as a healer and more viable than a DPS spec in Arena PVP?

That's not a rhetorical question, I'm interested in hearing opinions. More viable specs leads to more diversity and overall better gameplay. On the other hand, Paladins currently have 4 competitive PVP specs, when you compare that to other classes this is unfair.


if they want to fix prot, all they have to do is buff ret. it's not that difficult.
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#35 Veet

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:16 AM

You think 14% extra stamina and all that stacking damage reduction is bad? Ok, moving on.

Ask rogues, enhance shamans, and most melee classes how they feel about Block.

Most good ret paladin cannot pick up Divine Guardian, Toughness, or Imp Dev. That's one of the major points I'm trying to bring up. Ret has to sacrifice 5 points into holy and a glyph simply to be competitive, while losing much needed survivability. Trade offs are a good thing, you get one or the other, not both. Go check how many high rated Ret paladins go further than 11 points into prot.

If they do the same thing in Arena, why does prot get all the survivability without sacrificing damage?
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#36 Idgit

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:19 AM

Did you miss the AoTW and Divine Favor part(-4% spell hit and freedom out of stuns)? It makes a difference. Ret also has better CC since the HoJ nerf.

I'd say the specs are fairly even and that's a good thing. If prot is so good, why aren't you playing it? It looks like you're doing pretty well as ret.
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#37 Veet

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:35 AM

I'm playing it on the PTR, it is silly, we're beating everybody. If I had access to a good shield and the two piece T9 legs and helm, I would be playing Prot because it is too strong at the moment.

I also care about game balance. Which is why I'm complaining about it and trying to get a feel for what other people think.
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#38 Zeromadcowz

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:39 AM

WOW!! What an amazing and in-depth empirical analysis you've conducted. This must be why there are so many dps prot paladins in arena......


I'd really like to know where people get the notion that prot specs shouldn't be viable in arena. Does anybody even realize that prot has a total of ONE talent that gives them additionaly survivability over ret?

Because so many people played enhance shamans before beastcleave won mlg.
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#39 Sym

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:47 AM

I'm playing it on the PTR, it is silly, we're beating everybody. If I had access to a good shield and the two piece T9 legs and helm, I would be playing Prot because it is too strong at the moment.

I also care about game balance. Which is why I'm complaining about it and trying to get a feel for what other people think.


you don't even need the t9 to do well.
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#40 Lolboyardee

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:52 AM

Prots still go oom, even with divine plea up 100% time I tried it on the ptr. THE UNLIMITED MANA IS A LIE!
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your an idiot... use your strangulate to KILL AND ONLY KILL... as a paladin uses his wings... dont stragulate at 100% maybe you'll get that kill retard.... btw enh shaman... ROFL stuns/mind freeze/strangulate > wind shock and hex BY FAR... oh not to mention a grounding totem that doesnt disappear after one absorb (anti-magic shell)

you're obviously bad and completely lost at this game... and you think your good as a gladiator DK... may god have mercy on your soul





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