Mutilate (41/5/25) by Shaileen
Updated May 2, 2009
So, first I want to say that although this specc is very common and played by many rogues out there, it is not the ultimate best specc. You can always pick some other talents if you have special purposes or are running a unique combo. So feel free to add your suggestions, but I think this specc is a very solid thing to start with.
Short FAQ:
Q: Why dont you pick FA about FW?
A: I've run some simulations and tried out a lot at the puppets, but FA is not superior to FW, especially because you just have 2 points (if you dont drop one point at Murder or Deadened Nerves), and also more especially at an arena fight.
Of course you can say "Sometimes the +2 Energy give me an extra Mutilate at exact the right time!", but then you can also say "My enemy was at 2% Health, I had killed him if I had +4% offensive power", so that's no real argument.
Q: Finally Serrated Blades over Initiative?
A: Although I am a big fan of Initiative, I dropped it because Armor Pen. got a buff in 3.1. It still sucks to do Garrote - Mutilate and then just to have 3 CP, but the overall damage is worth it in my opinion.
Q: Some Variation with Blood Splatter?
A: I mainly keep up a bleed on rogues to prevent them from vanishing and getting away and not for the dps, but for a Heal/DD Team it might be a good idea to specc it.
Q: Improved Ambush?
A: Not worth the points imo, you can do better things with an opener (at least in arena fights), but if it works well for you, why not?
Q: Some Variation with Blood Splatter?
A: I mainly keep up a bleed on rogues to prevent them from vanishing and getting away and not for the dps, but for a Heal/DD Team it might be a good idea to specc it.
Q: Finally Serrated Blades over Initiative?
A: Although I am a big fan of Initiative, I dropped it because Armor Pen. got a buff in 3.1. It still sucks to do Garrote - Mutilate and then just to have 3 CP, but the overall damage is worth it in my opinion.
Im playing with a moonkin, so I have a demand for burst (so im speccing imp. Evis), and I also want to stay a healable and don't die in one stun, so I get Deadened Nerves.
Assassination (41)
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Combat (5)
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Subtlety (25)
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Comments: | |
|---|---|
  Galeren | Jan 6, 2009 - 5:25 PM (HideShow) |
| Is this really a good build with Mage Rogue teams? | |
 Stunlock | Jan 7, 2009 - 3:03 PM (HideShow) |
| and is this build good for holy paladin/rogue? thanks for answers | |
 Vrtra | Jan 8, 2009 - 5:30 PM (HideShow) |
| Initiative seems largely wasted as mut/prep. Drop the points into serrated imo, lol dk hpal. | |
| Stunning | Jan 11, 2009 - 9:42 PM (HideShow) |
| Serrated blades > initiative IMO | |
| Xdeathdealer | Jan 13, 2009 - 11:21 PM (HideShow) |
| how about taking one out of heightened senses for Hemo? any advice on that? | |
| Cuddlechu | Jan 13, 2009 - 11:36 PM (HideShow) |
| Im not in S5 yet, but in S1-S4 I was with a Feral druid. I think this spec would be some good burst but I'd put some points in Blood Splatter rather than Murder. Because Mangle would benefit both in my case. Two thumbs up. | |
  Kusari | Jan 14, 2009 - 11:35 AM (HideShow) |
| Xdeathdealer - Why would you waste energy on Hemo when your going to use Mutilate all the time? Hemo just doesnt do enough dmg with daggers to be useful. Heightened is so much more useful for the 4% miss chance and the stealth detection gives you a chance to get an opener on an opposing rogue, if your engineering and have goggles, it makes Heightened even better. I'm leveling up my rogue right now with a modified version of this talent build and it does wonders in PVP so far. | |
  Shaban | Jan 15, 2009 - 7:24 AM (HideShow) |
| ahmmm, does fleet foot & camouflage stuck? or it was just becouse of stealth cd? | |
| Lvc | Jan 20, 2009 - 1:32 PM (HideShow) |
| @Kusari "I'm leveling up my rogue right now" Things will change at 80, ALOT. | |
 Shaileen | Jan 21, 2009 - 3:27 PM (HideShow) |
| Hi, sorry that I havent checked out this before. I didnt expect to become this build to be standard =) I have included some of the answer to some questions here to the text and made an updated version due to the vile poison nerf. As always, if you have special setups it no problem to modify this build a bit, for example get some points into Serrated Blades - its just a good basis to start. Im playing this build as rogue/priest, and for this purpose its the best you can probably get :) @Shaban: It stacks. You are somewhere near 95% Runspeed in stealth. | |
 Kyné | Jan 23, 2009 - 5:55 PM (HideShow) |
| 97% run speed, And this spec is bad. Any rogue with this spec who claims to be good is clearly carried by the overpowered state of WoW. | |
| Shaileen | Jan 24, 2009 - 9:40 AM (HideShow) |
| So, umm, like Neilyo? And I have to agree, the 2/2 imp. Ambush your Rogue runs is clearly superior than this specc... not. | |
| Kyné | Jan 25, 2009 - 9:17 PM (HideShow) |
| 2/2 imp ambush is better then initiative, sorry to say. You don't need more combo points then you already have as muti builds. And oh mai, neilyo is all knowing. btw; he doesn't have imp kidney shot like a scrub. | |
| Deexta | Jan 27, 2009 - 11:10 AM (HideShow) |
| Why would you even try to ambush if you don't have 3/3 Master of Subtlety (additional 10% damage while stealth + 6sec) + 5/5 Slaughter from the Shadows (45 energy cost Ambush) and the most important of all : 1/1 **Shadowstep** wich increase the damage of your Ambush by 20% Thats how you get the most from your ambush (roughly). Not by giving you 45% crit DUH. If u see a paper clothie below 35% Just Cold Blood Ambush instead | |
| Deexta | Jan 27, 2009 - 6:20 PM (HideShow) |
| Fleet Footed 2/2 don't stack with Camouflage 3/3 . Regular run speed = 100% Stealth speed = 70% (of the regular run speed) Camouflage 3/3 = Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%. Camo speed = 85% (of Regular) Fleet Footed = 15% movement speed increase.(Does not stack with other movement speed increasing effect) Look at the above, camo increase stealth speed. its a speed increase effect. Other wise if both would stack, regular running speed would be 115% and stealth speed 100% ?????? makes no sense. I already ear the complaints from other classes. | |
| Dow | Jan 27, 2009 - 11:39 PM (HideShow) |
| You obviously have no idea how good Focused Attacks is. | |
| Shaileen | Jan 28, 2009 - 5:25 PM (HideShow) |
| In the latest version i did a summary, how much dmg FA would be with 30% Crit Rate - it would be roughly one Mutilate, if you stand all the time at your enemy and all your hits would be hitting and not missing etc. This happens not in arena, and because games are lasting most times long enough for a second (cs into) ks, i decided to take it instead. | |
| Kyné | Jan 28, 2009 - 6:58 PM (HideShow) |
| 97% speed in stealth, 115% speed outside of stealth. I take imp ambush because I run rogue/druid and the only way we can beat rogue/??? is if I can pump out alot of burst in a short time, so I keep EA up, and when we get the ??? in a CC I kidneyshot->mut->ambush->evis->mut->mut->cold blood evis for big burst before cyclone/kidneyshot fades. as for focused attacks, it's good if you crit a few whites, mut, then crit a few more whites for just enough energy to evis before they can heal up. Imp kidneyshot is for rogues who just tunnel vision and think "LOL ILL STUNLOCK AND WIN" is the way to play. Most good rogues only kidneyshot for a interrupt, peel, or to hold them still so they can't dodge/run away while low enough to die. | |
| Shaileen | Jan 31, 2009 - 12:28 PM (HideShow) |
| I see your point, but I dont think this "well thoughed" tactic will really work ingame. You need to have a) 5 CP KS, which is not dodged/parried b) 130 Energy c) Vanish left for Ambush d) the rogue has insignia used e) ??? has insignia used. If this all happen, you dont need to have imp. Ambush - you will in most cases kill the rogue also with ks>muti>muti>CB evi. Your argument for FA is btw. really stupid. You CAN have some white crits when you need some 10 energy, but you also CANT have it. Thats not an argument "i sometimes go lucky with it". And for your thinkings about what a good rogue uses ks to... lol. Having 5 CP KS + >100 energy and the opponent is cced, is everytime a big opportunity to kill the enemy. And for usual, I do kick to interrupt someone and not ks him. And when I can win with simple ks - kill, why shouldnt I take this chance? For sure I can do some complicated cc-chains, which are most likely disturbed by some rng factors - but I dont have to. | |
| Kyné | Feb 1, 2009 - 7:28 AM (HideShow) |
| Have you arena'd past the 1800 bracket? The only way to beat paladin/rogue as druid/rogue is to do what i just said, and get the pally in a cyclone no trinket. Also, the only other place to put the points from FA are into deadened nerves, not imp KS. I take FA for like i stated above, over a long game it's more of a damage increase then find weakness or murder. If you can win with a simple CS->KS cycle, you're in the 1700 bracket of S5, and the 1300 bracket of S4. | |
| Kyné | Feb 1, 2009 - 7:29 AM (HideShow) |
| And uh, this is for comments. This back and forth banter would be better suited for a forum board. | |
| Viernia | Feb 3, 2009 - 3:45 PM (HideShow) |
| well kyne .. i would probably go for kidney shot with a dps class cause its : Inc dmg by 9% from all sources ... but am not sure if that works for other players attacking my target affected with kidney.. or just my dmg?? well i guess other players gets the inc. | |
| Kyné | Feb 4, 2009 - 2:06 AM (HideShow) |
| It's all, but if you run with a dps then deadened nerves is the best option, so you don't die in a 4 second stun. | |
| Shaileen | Feb 4, 2009 - 3:37 PM (HideShow) |
| Top 50 2v2 & Top 30 3v3 at the best german BG. Dunno how the situation is over there :) | |
| Deliwio | Feb 16, 2009 - 12:23 PM (HideShow) |
| U know what, fuck mutilate and its sillyness. Im specing good old HARP again, tired of playing cs-ks-win games. | |
| Stunning | Feb 18, 2009 - 5:40 PM (HideShow) |
| Deexta, Fleet footed does stack with camo. Just not 85%+15%. Its 1.15(.85) = 97% run speed in stealth. | |
| Stunning | Feb 18, 2009 - 5:42 PM (HideShow) |
| Shaileen, 2 energy on all crits is simply better than 6% more damage on special attacks. Ask any good rogue (one who has been in 2000-2200+ before easymode mutilate prep). | |
| Stunning | Feb 18, 2009 - 5:43 PM (HideShow) |
| Or if he is doing well as mut prep and doesnt have an arcane mage partner, by all means, he's good too. However, it looks like you're talking out of your ass about FA at the moment. | |
| Stunning | Feb 18, 2009 - 5:47 PM (HideShow) |
| Sorry for one million comments. Armory a rogue like litreocola, emolol, neilyolol. | |
  Mäjaché | Feb 18, 2009 - 5:49 PM (HideShow) |
| What's a good rotation for this spec? My partner on 3v3 is rogue and is looking for a decent rotation | |
| Ageli | Feb 21, 2009 - 10:15 AM (HideShow) |
| Is't Mutilate best for 2v2 WITH a healer and shadowdance for double DPS zerg/burst team? | |
| Kyné | Mar 1, 2009 - 4:51 AM (HideShow) |
| since the mut nerf, imp ambush is really viable. ambush does more damage then mut, and having it crit ~80% of the time is extremely useful. and FA is still better. | |
| Ks | Mar 3, 2009 - 8:02 PM (HideShow) |
| Personally i like Serrated blades instead on iniative jsut because if u have the gear u have the stats to crit with mutilate so u dont need the extra CP from your opener although it does help with garrote. Good both ways played as both liked both none better even despite the nerf | |
| Ks | Mar 3, 2009 - 8:09 PM (HideShow) |
| And i find focused attacks better than imp kidney becuase personally i think that kidney is one of the most trinketed spells and the extra damage wont help if it jsut get trinketed | |
| Shaileen | Mar 16, 2009 - 12:47 PM (HideShow) |
| Its a bit outdated, will update it with 3.1... @FA-Questions: I've run some calculations, in which FA is simply not superior to FW. Go and run your own if you dont believe me, but pls get away with this "I think FA is better because everyone has it", thx :) | |
| Ensideus | Mar 23, 2009 - 8:34 AM (HideShow) |
| Improved Evic VS Vile poisons. I dunno. I feel that bleeds are a pain in the behind for all rogues (cept dwarves). Drop Improved Evic and Fleet Footed, grab Blood Spatter and Vile Poisons. Then in Sub, Drop initiative and put the points in Serrated Blades. Bleeds are a pain in the butt and distracting. Most classes can't removed them....and they are definitely useful vs rogues and other classes that can invis and remove poisons...but not bleeds. This is something to experiment with. I have the build I've been using for a while and it works real well in general PVP, have not tested it in Arena, so I'm not sure how well that would work. But just my suggestion. | |
  Conradek | Mar 25, 2009 - 12:07 PM (HideShow) |
| Why not put points into Serrated Blades isntead of Initiative...? If you use Kidney Shot and then Mutilate, there will almost always be a lost combo point right there because of the crits. If you put it into Serrated Blades, however, its a passive armor pen bonus which is good for all teams. Also, should you really spend points on Deadened Nerves for 2s? It seems like a 5v5 spec or for those with less than 300ish resilience... | |
 Boethiah | Mar 30, 2009 - 9:03 PM (HideShow) |
| Serrated Blades definitely beats initiative. Ive tried focused attacks and imp ks, and with FA i just seem to have more energy, it might not be a free mutilate every 10 seconds, but say with imp ks, if im 15 energy short and have to wait a couple seconds for that mutilate, i would already have that energy with FA. And no blood spatter is definitely not worth 2 points, i dont bleed anything i want to cc, i only use bleeds on my current target who might heal through my damage without it, or on any plate wearersor bears, as rupture ignores armor. MY question is however, is deadened nerves a good idea for a mage/rogue team? Ive currently got 260 resil. And what would be the best talents to take from? | |
| Cynik | Mar 31, 2009 - 2:44 PM (HideShow) |
| I don't think the reasoning behind people thinking FA is better is overall damage. With the regenerated energy you can get mutilates off a little more quickly and have a little more burst damage. | |
| Rogueiest | Apr 30, 2009 - 11:35 AM (HideShow) |
| im starting an arena team with a disc priesy probobly.i allways get 4 combo points on target then i have to spend some combo points from mutilate for nothing.i wanna know whats the strategy i use to be a very good rogue in arena(2v2). | |
 Skulldriver | May 2, 2009 - 6:50 AM (HideShow) |
| Here's a question for ya. How long do you think, on average, does it take to get your 4-5 cps up and capable of getting a Kidney Punch off? Think its possible within 6 secs of when you start on em? Then, how much less damage do you think you will do w/o any points under Combat in Dual Wield Spec? So, think about a 43/0/28 Build. Yes, IK, sounds odd coming from a lvl 20 Rogue, but I do play a 80 UD Rogue as well, so save those n00b comments for someone else :). But, back to what I was saying. The 5 points taken out of Combat's Dual Wield Spec you can use 3 of em under Subtlety in Master of Subtlety for that extra 10% Damage for attacks used in Stealh and 6 secs after Stealth. Thats a 10% Damage added to your Mut and w/e else you wanna use. And with 5 points in Seal Fate, and depeneding on how high your crit is you should hopefully have enough crit to get you that 3rd cp from your Mut. Thats 5 cps there. And if not then use a Shiv, you have that Vigor point for that extra 10 Energy. And if your Off-Hand has a high Energy useage w/ your Shiv bc of how slow it is then have another Off-Hand weapon w/ a faster speed w/ any poison you want on it, use that Weapon-Swap-Shiv-Swap-Weapon Macro, its there for a reason. And if you are going agaisnt a Plate user, then you have those 2 points in Blood Spatter for that Bleed effect, plus w/e DoT poisons you may be using. You have your extra damage as well from your Serrated Blades, which means even more w/ that MoS under Sub. And of course w/ those points in Dirty Deeds reduce the E/cost of Cheap Shot and Garrote by 20, then you deal 20% extra damage on all your specials on targets w/ 35% or less health, so once again Serrated Blades ( <---not sure if SR is what you mean for that) pays off by helping you deal that extra damage.And by using Kidney Punch w/ this Spec, youre target takes 9% more damage from all sources, therefore that means your attacks, your partners attacks if you are on the same target, your poisons, then Serrated Blades once again, and if you can get a decent K | |
| Skulldriver | May 2, 2009 - 12:26 PM (HideShow) |
| Here is the breakdown of the spec I am talking about from up above. Assassinationx43 Malicex5 Ruthlessnessx3 Improved Evisceratex3 Vigorx1 Puncturing Woundsx3 Lethalityx5 Blood Spatterx2(User Descretion) Vile Poisonsx3 Improved Kidney Punchx3 Cold Bloodx1 Quick Recoveryx2 Seal Fatex5 Deadly Brewx2 Overkillx1 Find Weaknessx3 Mutilatex1 Combatx0 Subtletyx28 Master of Deceptionx3 Opportunityx2 Relentless Strikesx5 Camouflagex3 Dirty Tricksx2 Serrated Bladesx3 Elusivenessx2 Heightened Sensesx2 Dirty Deedsx2 Preparationx1 Master of Subtletyx3 | |
| Bodil | May 2, 2009 - 8:27 PM (HideShow) |
| '' Shaileen Feb 4, 2009 - 2:37 PM (HideShow) Top 50 2v2 & Top 30 3v3 at the best german BG. Dunno how the situation is over there :)'' You are top 50 and top 30 on a shitty european BG? That's pretty amazing. Come back when you're top 5 world, then maybe your advises will be worth something. | |
| Syk | May 2, 2009 - 9:28 PM (HideShow) |
| so many typos its not even funny | |
| Skulldriver | May 3, 2009 - 3:34 AM (HideShow) |
| Now I'm lost.... | |
| Skulldriver | May 3, 2009 - 4:00 AM (HideShow) |
| Ignore my ignorance, I wrote things down completely wrong there | |
| Thril | May 3, 2009 - 5:59 AM (HideShow) |
| Might it be a good idead to use imp. Kidney shot instead of deadened nerves? (I´m playing 2v2 with a mage and 3v3 with resto druid/mage) | |
| Skulldriver | May 3, 2009 - 8:32 AM (HideShow) |
| I believe Imp Kidney Shot is great, and even better say if you manage to time chains together, for example CC one tango then tha one who gets that Kidney Shot, both you and your partner can jump in on that one, but take in regard to tha fact that tha one who gets CC can easily avoid it or if inflicted by ones CC they can just as easily trinket outta it or depending on race here, they can racial outta it. But if it comes to a scenario where you dont have to 1) Worry bout racials breaking CC or 2) They already pop'd there trink to break a previous CC; then like I said, time that chain to tha T and use Team Work like theres no tomorrow, then youre Kidney Shot+Imp. Kidney Shot and both you and youre partner tag teaming tha afflicted Kidney Shot perp, then yes it would work great, especially if youre tag teaming a Plate perp, while tha Healz is CC'd. Thats just something I would do =P | |
| Skulldriver | May 3, 2009 - 8:35 AM (HideShow) |
| And lets not forget bout any Bleeds on that perp as well, depending if ya put points in to Blood Spatter for that extra Bleed, bc say that Plate just dosent die right away then those Bleeds may kill 'em anyhow | |
| Skulldriver | May 3, 2009 - 8:53 AM (HideShow) |
| Ssy if you wanted to try this out? Hit me up w/ any replies/messages/help, etc... Assassinationx43 Combatx0 Subtletyx28 Malicex5 Oppurtunityx2 Improved Evisceratex3 Master of Deceptionx3 Blood Spatterx2 Relentless Strikesx5 Puncturing Woundsx3 Camouflagex3 Vigorx1 Dirty Tricksx2 Lethalityx5 Serrated Bladesx3 Vile Poisonsx3 Elusivenessx2 Cold Bloodx1 Heightened Sensesx2 Improved Kidney Shotx3 Dirty Deedsx2 Seal Fatex5 Preparationx1 Murderx2 Master of Subtletyx3 Deadly Brewx2 Overkillx1 Deadened Nervesx3 Find Weaknessx3 Mutilatex1 | |
| Stunning | May 3, 2009 - 10:19 AM (HideShow) |
| no blood splatter or FA? | |
| Skulldriver | May 3, 2009 - 10:36 AM (HideShow) |
| Blood Spatter is great, I have it up in my message up above. And FA is nowhere great compared to the extra damage you can dish out. So no FA in mine. Not worth it imo | |
| MstrSneak | May 3, 2009 - 5:22 PM (HideShow) |
| vile poisons is that worth going in cuz it says "and gives your damage over time poison an additional 30% chance to resist dispell effects." | |
| Skulldriver | May 4, 2009 - 6:47 AM (HideShow) |
| Yes Vile Poisons is worth bc of the fact that it will increase the Damage of your poisons. And im sure that extra 30% resist dispel is nice, bu its mainly there for that extra damage from our poisons. | |
 Söpöläinen | May 4, 2009 - 8:59 AM (HideShow) |
| " Bodil May 3, 2009 - 2:27 AM (HideShow) '' Shaileen Feb 4, 2009 - 2:37 PM (HideShow) Top 50 2v2 & Top 30 3v3 at the best german BG. Dunno how the situation is over there :)'' You are top 50 and top 30 on a shitty european BG? That's pretty amazing. Come back when you're top 5 world, then maybe your advises will be worth something." Could be worse, he could be from US BG. | |
 Donut | May 4, 2009 - 10:40 AM (HideShow) |
| I believe neilyo doesn't got imp KS, because everyone trinkets / BoF / blinks kidney shot anyway? | |
| Shaileen | May 4, 2009 - 4:13 PM (HideShow) |
| " Bodil May 3, 2009 - 2:27 AM (HideShow) You are top 50 and top 30 on a shitty european BG? That's pretty amazing. Come back when you're top 5 world, then maybe your advises will be worth something. I always heard that the Americans are arrogant. Thanks that you proved this point, on your very well-known US-BG. (I hope you see the irony) @Skulldriver: English is not my native language, and I would be very thankful if you would write not w/ internetslang /on :p And just link a talentbuild, and do not count up the talents - and as I said before: Of course there can be some better talent builds for your special purposes, but I dont think that you can replace DW-Spec because its THE best damage-talent overall. Imp. KS is a tricky thing: If you are playing 2 DD, it can be very useful - but most of the opponents will trinket your first KS, and maybe you dont get enough time for a second. If you are playing DD/Heal, the points are better spent in Deadened Nerves. | |
 Ninetales | May 4, 2009 - 5:52 PM (HideShow) |
| deadened nerves replaced with focused attacks makes this spec perfect. go big or go home. if you are talking about doing most damage, don't spec into things that reduce damage caused to you, rather spec into things that increase damage you cause. | |
| Skulldriver | May 5, 2009 - 6:06 AM (HideShow) |
| I apoligize? Maybe? I don't really get all the time I prefer to write everything up or do all my 'homework' and actually linking my build has no luck because the internet in Iraq sucks, seeing as thats where I am currently deployed to. So my bad Shaileen, and no this isnt me trying to bash out at ya. There would be no point in that. So all im trying to do here is stay on the Rogue PvP focus as much as possible, thats all and yes im throwing up some of my ideas as well and trying to hrlp out as much as I can, all the way from the 'Lovely (lets not forget basically water-less) sandy beaches of Iraq' =P Now if you dont mind its looking like Mars out here right, sky is orange, litrerally... | |
| Carnat | May 5, 2009 - 11:36 AM (HideShow) |
| i think most of you are missing the point that its about personal preference | |
| Skulldriver | May 5, 2009 - 12:50 PM (HideShow) |
| Usually, yes it is. But then again some peeps have such a hard time in PvP they go to look for help, and yes sadly some of them that look for help end up getting critisized. But thnx for pointing that out there Carnat, maybe people will take a moment and think that oh yes that is right, my bad. But then again I guess they just don't care like me, seeing as I look at life and think that I get paid to do my job, not to care. But hey, if anybody needs a hand here, ask away, thats why this is here. Or if you are tired of the bashing you may reciece here, then by all means send me a message, I will do what-ever I can do to help out. I may not care if you get youre feelings hurt or so forth, but I will help you. Iight l8r | |
| Cyanax | May 5, 2009 - 8:43 PM (HideShow) |
| Some of these arguements are completely retarded, as for the spec this spec is one of the top ones, depending on personal preference, im running the same spec as this, just with 2 points in blood spatter and only 1 in imp evis, as well as 3/3 find weakness and only 2/3 deadened nerves. And as for the arguement on european / american servers, I am american, and having played on both servers, I have to say that european ones are more challenging and rewarding so that stupid "playing on a shitty european BG" quote makes you look like an even bigger scrub Bodil... | |
| Forserialmst | May 6, 2009 - 5:35 PM (HideShow) |
| why do you get vile poisons? if you read, and it very clearly states, "and gives your DAMAGE OVER TIME poisons an additional 30% chance to resist dispel..." | |
| Forserialmst | May 6, 2009 - 5:41 PM (HideShow) |
| BTW I'm assuming you're getting it for the dispel portion, because 20% more damage on your 1 wound poison you should be running doesn't really make a lot of sense. | |
| Mogran | May 7, 2009 - 4:50 AM (HideShow) |
| They use it for the bonus damage for wound poison. 400 wound poison procs 80% of the time on 1.8 weapons? yes please. | |
| Forserialmst | May 7, 2009 - 3:07 PM (HideShow) |
| 80% of the time? thats some crazy math, its 50%, and its also now based on a proc per minute system | |
| Fancyfeast | May 7, 2009 - 3:26 PM (HideShow) |
| lol what rogue runs with one wound poison? I don't know about you Forserial, but since the poison damage change, double wound is the way to go. Also I'm no good at theorycrafting but with the PPM system, 80% on a 1.8 weapon sounds almost right. | |
| Shaileen | May 7, 2009 - 6:04 PM (HideShow) |
| Forserialmst May 7, 2009 - 6:07 PM (HideShow) "80% of the time? thats some crazy math, its 50%, and its also now based on a proc per minute system" Yeah, and because its based on a ppm mechanic, its NOT 50%. Do your researchs. And as Fancyfeast said before, nearly everyone is running with Double Wound, and while getting roughly 20-30% from total dmg from poisons, its the best talent to pick. | |
| Whewt | May 8, 2009 - 2:14 PM (HideShow) |
| I've got a question.. I like the spec, but I feel like it's a waste of a talent point to not just keep 1/2 in deadly brew and put the extra point in Find Weakness. I mean... Like we have been stating.. 50%-80% chance proc on each hit? I'm almost positive that's not going to make a difference in the long run; you're going to keep the crippling poisen on the bad guy? Or am I completely wrong? | |
| Fancyfeast | May 8, 2009 - 3:19 PM (HideShow) |
| "I've got a question.. I like the spec, but I feel like it's a waste of a talent point to not just keep 1/2 in deadly brew and put the extra point in Find Weakness. I mean... Like we have been stating.. 50%-80% chance proc on each hit? I'm almost positive that's not going to make a difference in the long run; you're going to keep the crippling poisen on the bad guy? Or am I completely wrong?" It will proc often, yes, but I don't think the 50% less chance that crippling will proc is worth 2% extra damage after finishers. | |
| Whewt | May 9, 2009 - 3:30 PM (HideShow) |
| I'm going to have to disagree. I'm pretty sure it's no longer after finishing moves, and just all the time for find weakness, and even if it wasn't.. I don't know. Picturing it in my head just seems like it's a waste of a point to have 2/2. | |
| Murdurer | May 10, 2009 - 3:08 PM (HideShow) |
| what poisons do you use for this spec? | |
 Exitium | May 11, 2009 - 9:58 AM (HideShow) |
| It's great that some people don't even bother reading a comment 4 places above their own and then ask a question answered in that post. Double Wound. | |
| Murdurer | May 11, 2009 - 5:05 PM (HideShow) |
| what poisons do you use in this spec? | |
| Stunning | May 11, 2009 - 7:07 PM (HideShow) |
| still needs blood splatter | |
| Neroganks | May 12, 2009 - 3:09 AM (HideShow) |
| @Ninetales, Well, your go big, or go home theroy is nice and all, but let me explain something that might help you in the near future. You deal 0DPS while dead. Go dead, go home. ;) | |
| Neroganks | May 12, 2009 - 3:11 AM (HideShow) |
| Also, wondering which Major glyphs one should use for this? Lots of forum argueing and fighting here, and not enough actual info. Such as glyph useage, and poison useage. | |
| Ðiamue | May 12, 2009 - 8:04 AM (HideShow) |
| At least the spec is better, vile poisons is kinda bad. Seeming how 20% isn't game breaking, but neither is 30% to rupture/garrote, since both are useless except against plate. And you should fix the deadened nerves thing, only get 2/3 of it and 3/3 of find weakness. As for glyphs and poisons Glyph of mutil, vigor, and cloak. Poisons, double wound or wound/MN Double wound for more damage, wound/mn for a chance at kicking shaman heals. | |
| Shaileen | May 12, 2009 - 12:41 PM (HideShow) |
| Glyphs: Depend on your Combo. I've to peel a lot from my partner, so I am using Mutilate/ Vigor / Prep. Cloak is a waste for double dps imo, but can be really nice for Heal/DD. Poisons: I always run with Dual Wound... tested MN and Deadly, but the advantages of getting more dmg are better than a Dot / 30% Casttime. And kicking Shaman heals: A human being has a reaction time of 0,1-0,3 to an expected event, so +latency you should be able to kick this 0,6 second heals ;) At least I am successful at this during 75% of the time, and I am not one of the best players. | |
| Carnat | May 15, 2009 - 5:42 AM (HideShow) |
| Glyphs are also personal preference aswell as team combo. I roll with mut/vigor/evis as major glyphs since I have imp evis, again I will not bombard anyone with what to / what not to use or spec into... figuer that one out for yourselves. Adapating a spec and playstile is, I think, the bigest step to becoming better at playing your class. | |
 геовар | May 17, 2009 - 12:06 PM (HideShow) |
| good talants | |
| Glee | May 18, 2009 - 10:27 AM (HideShow) |
| i think Iniative is the same good as serrated blades cause when i find rogues in arena and start on them i usually do cheap shot rupture CB mutilate kidney shot disarm, and when i do cheap shot with iniative i get 12 seconds with rupture and more dmg so the rogue wont trinket the kidney shot and prob vanish | |
| Glee | May 18, 2009 - 10:28 AM (HideShow) |
| also you can do a good burst dmg with ambush, mutilate cb evi or cheap shot mutilate evi | |
| Deliwio | May 18, 2009 - 6:56 PM (HideShow) |
| I dont see why u want imp ambush when ur barely using it against any classes and when uve got CB as well. I actually dont use ambush in other cases then to priests (for a quick cb ambush vanish vs RP) and mages. There has also been some research around FA and it was actually doing rlly well overall in a match lasting 2 minutes. I also hear ppls are specing into Ruth. even tho its yet another crap RNG talent provided by blizz for having a higher chance of relentless proc on ur second finisher as muti/prep (having overkill buff on u aswell restores 35 energy with relentless proc. Anyways, its a good spec that ppls can change as the want pretty much. If u ambush alot which i dont it might be a good idea to spec into. If you prefer not having to mutilate one additional time for a relentless proc when opening with garrote, do like me and spec into initiative instead of serrated. Im playing RM so i dont rlly benefit from armor penetration fully when my duty is to burst. (ive also speced into imp ks for additional dmg from my mage, its a good idea to spec it if ur in team with another dps). | |
| Rogue | May 20, 2009 - 2:32 PM (HideShow) |
| ok but what do u say if u skip the 5 pts in combat and take the 5 pts to deadliness just want to find out what u think | |
| Holia | May 22, 2009 - 12:41 PM (HideShow) |
| for 2x dps fuck the Quick Recovery and get Imp Kidney imo ^^ | |
| Nileindar | May 25, 2009 - 10:51 PM (HideShow) |
| What is a good attack chain? | |
| Stubbornn | May 31, 2009 - 4:12 AM (HideShow) |
| So does fleet footed and camo stack? there seems to be conflicting statements about it. If it doesnt stack then why get camo at all? aside from the decreased stealth timer whats the point of having both? | |
| Avaríel | Jun 1, 2009 - 9:12 PM (HideShow) |
| I don't believe they stack. The decreased stealth timer is worth it. I am glad this spec finally got updated. Somehow I missed the whole WP/WP and have been running WP/DP and using Envenom. Thanks for all the comments. What do you guys think of Glyphing Tricks (Replacing Evisc), Mut and Vigor for this spec? 10% dmg vs 10% crit on Evisc... ? | |
| Ukwtakunn | Jun 4, 2009 - 4:32 AM (HideShow) |
| So, what if you were to do more damage? Say as within the first 6 secs after you break Stealth you get off a Kidney Shot, which when you are specced in it you will do 9% more damage. Plus your Find Weakness, thats 6%. So far 15%. Master of Subtlety, 3 points into it, 10% more 6 secs after Stealth. Thats 25%. Then take into consideration on how much more you will be doing with the 2/3 in Serrated Blades, that armor pen will help. So over 25% now. Then Murder for 4%. Over 29%. And if they have a poison on them, I still prefer Double Wound my self, then a extra 20% from Mutilate. Over 49%. And if you choose to say Vanish when they are around 35% Health or less, then reopen on em, then thats another 20%. Thats 69% extra damage. And with the nice gain in Overkill from the recent patch, anmd with this Build focusing on:1)Extra Damage, 2)Gaining CPs, and 3)Restoring E, then if done correctly you should have no problem buring targets down. Yes, I know that the damage will differ depending on Class and how they are built/specced, but you will do more damage period. And you have those extra Bleeds, which I really like and prefer imo. Yes I know you can maybe swap out points for Vile Poisons to get that extra 20% increase on poisons, but I did'nt go for that. You can even swap out say Imp. Kidney Shot for Vile Poisons. Or better yet swap out Ruthlessness for Vile Poisons. I tried this and I was capable of getting 5 CPs on my target and a Kidney Punch before 6 secs were over, even a Mut. http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=4&tal=30532310500013152210030100000000000000000000000000000005320232020302120300000000000 ^-With out Vile Poisons, with Ruthlessness. http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=4&tal=30502310530013152210030100000000000000000000000000000005320232020302120300000000000 ^-With Vile Poisons, no Ruthlessness. | |
| Ukwtakunn | Jun 7, 2009 - 5:45 AM (HideShow) |
| Nvrmnd. I still prefer the 41/5/25 quite honestly. | |
| Ggnorekthx | Jun 10, 2009 - 10:25 PM (HideShow) |
| I see lots of good rogues use Glyph of Vigor/Glyph of Mutilate/Glyph of Preparation or Glyph of Vigor/Glyph of Mutilate/Glyph of Tricks of the Trade Anyone know which one is better for Rogue/Priest or RMP? | |
| Shaileen | Jun 11, 2009 - 8:05 AM (HideShow) |
| I would choose the second because RP and especially RMP has enough control but a great demand for burst. | |
| Contracted | Jun 12, 2009 - 7:06 AM (HideShow) |
| Avaríel Jun 1, 2009 - 8:12 PM (HideShow) I don't believe they stack. The decreased stealth timer is worth it. They do "stack". Fleetfooted is a speed INCREASE. Camo is a Stealth penalty DECREASE. | |
| Rallew | Jul 6, 2009 - 12:48 AM (HideShow) |
| Helllo fellas, Grim is back ;) | |
| Rogue | Jul 7, 2009 - 6:47 PM (HideShow) |
| why not Initiative ?! | |
| Shaileen | Jul 12, 2009 - 3:36 PM (HideShow) |
| I would suggest to read the FAQ I wrote exactly for such questions. | |
| Ukwtakunn | Jul 13, 2009 - 5:52 AM (HideShow) |
| http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=4&tal=30500310530012252210320100000500000000000000000000000005320232010022120000000000000 A spec to run with on a 2v2 DPS Team. Say Rogue/Mage or even what me and a friend was talking about, Rogue/Lock setup. As a Rogue/Lock team, its going to be pretty annoying when you do not know if you should blow your trink on the Rogues stun or the Locks Fear, so either way, you will be burned down. You will be able to burst in this spec, gain a CP off of your crits, gain 2E off of your crits, and depending on who is in your sights you open up with the Ambush, seeing as there is a Imp Ambush here in this spec, so Ambush, preferably 3CPs there, Mut, Kidney Shot, etc etc. There are no improved bleeds here, except the 10% for Rupture from the 1 point in Serrated Blades and the 20% for Garrote from Oppurtunity. But either way, you can still pop a Bleed on some one, say on a Rogue to prevent them from dissappearing on you. But this spec is mainly focused for DPS teams, you will not have Deadened Nerves. Let the Lock roll in with more PvP gear, seeing as they get more of a benefit from it as the SP they get from it, plus the resil can help them seeing as they are a squishie, and the Rogue can roll in with a mixture of PvP and PvE gear, so they have some resil, maybe a decent Set bonus from either one, plus the extra crit/ap they may not be getting from the pvp gear. Iight I think thats enough for now, let me know what you think. | |
| Cooldowns | Jul 15, 2009 - 9:07 PM (HideShow) |
| The above posted spec is the most widely used Rogue arena spec. There are variations on it and you can change points around depending on comp and bracket. IE: Double DPS team would take Imp. Kidney so you and your partner do 9% increased damage EACH over the 5-6 seconds of KS. | |
| Ukwtakunn | Jul 16, 2009 - 8:09 AM (HideShow) |
| Yea, pretty much. I just figured I'd put it up thats all =P | |
| Shaileen | Jul 16, 2009 - 10:16 AM (HideShow) |
| @Ukwtakunn: 1. Fleet Footed is a must-have 2. If you want maximum burst you should take 2/3 FA and 3/3 FW 3. You will never open with Ambush as a rogue/lock because you lock needs your stuns to stay alive and/or set up burst, so its a total waste of points imo. | |
| Sylnic | Aug 3, 2009 - 4:38 AM (HideShow) |
| How about taking the 3 points out of Deadened Nerves, puting those into Focused Attacks, and then taking the 2 points out of Find Weakness and putting them into Improved Kidney Shot(and of course i prefer Initiative over Serrated Blades). I generally play with a disc priest and/or ret pally. Any thoughts? | |
| Sylnic | Aug 3, 2009 - 4:45 AM (HideShow) |
| forgot to post link... /facepalm http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=4&tal=30500310530212252210300100000500000000000000000000000005320232000302120000000000000 | |
| Waffelz | Aug 4, 2009 - 1:19 AM (HideShow) |
| this is an awesome spec. i know its probably the most common in rogues but i love it, been doin work in the BG's and arenas with it, LOTS more damage that shadowstep | |
| Légit | Aug 4, 2009 - 4:30 PM (HideShow) |
| this spec works perfect for me, tell me what u guys think http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=4&tal=30500310530210252210320100000500000000000000000000000005320232030002120000000000000 | |
| Légit | Aug 4, 2009 - 4:36 PM (HideShow) |
| and i'm surprised no1 has posted a hfb spec like, i mean its a shit ton of pressure u put out and can get off some hard ass fucking switches. http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=4&tal=30532310030213252210330105100500000000000000000000000005120202030000000000000000000 | |
| RasiedFist | Aug 4, 2009 - 11:11 PM (HideShow) |
| haha srsly this is NOT the BEST muti PVP SPEC in ANY bracet Skip the Vile Poisons for Ruthlesness to begin with and deadned nerves for focused attacks THAT is the BEST PVP MUTI SPEC end of story! | |
| Draedo | Aug 11, 2009 - 8:11 AM (HideShow) |
| i think that herromrage would make a good addition to this build. many would say "whats the point if you'll be using mutilate?". But I've been using this spec for over a week. (not that long i know) but in a few case mutilates enegy cost has left be high n dry. I just know that if I got another quick attack i woulda been the victor but it was happening hehe. i think that if mutilate was to be used as a follw through to ambush, kidney shot, etc... then herromrage after that would keep your energy at good if not at least USABLE level. I just dunno where the extra point should be taken from...? any thoughts... even if you disagree with my herro idea. | |
| Wyre | Aug 11, 2009 - 2:43 PM (HideShow) |
| @Draedo - That's a waste of a point. You only have 4 choice of where you could remove the talent, as you need 41 in Ass. to get mutilate, and can't remove anything lower than the 20-point tier in Sub or you can't even get Hemo/Prep. That leaves Dual Wield Spec, Prep, Heightened Sense, and Dirty Deeds. Dirty Deeds is the only one that could even be considered, and it's still not even remotely worth it. | |
| Sylnic | Aug 17, 2009 - 8:14 PM (HideShow) |
| is it just me... or are rogues alot worse since patch in pvp? | |
| Flaiir | Aug 18, 2009 - 1:50 AM (HideShow) |
| Its just you. Nothing's been changed to rogue. Other than the fact people have resil buff, meaning you can't burst someone in 2secs. | |
 Ieatualive | Sep 1, 2009 - 4:29 PM (HideShow) |
| this spec i find worksreally good in 2v2's check it out. http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#fhxcoeMsiMkczZ0xZebfbhMzb | |
| Shaileen | Sep 2, 2009 - 11:38 AM (HideShow) |
| Yeah, especially because every other stealther will find you first because you have no Heightened Senses, hm? :) You did some minor changings - exactly what I've recommended in the introduction. | |
| Phobiaa | Sep 4, 2009 - 2:24 AM (HideShow) |
| ok well im using this spec. i need help with my rogue just hit 80 not to long ago. i need some help on rotation what to do in certain situations. ok thanks | |
 Payoff | Oct 9, 2009 - 9:04 PM (HideShow) |
| Moonkin/Rog and no imp ks is srs sh1t | |
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