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Even though it is early in the season, this seems like a very important issue to address. As you can tell from browsing the forums for a couple of minutes, and even by Blizzard's own admission, damage is out of control at the moment. What I'd like to do is compile a list of suggestions, examples, and any constructive feedback that you think would help Blizzard address the issue. We will pass it on to them and hopefully our suggestions can help them fix the issue before its too late.

Please post your thoughts in this thread and feel free to link to your blog, other forum posts, etc. We just want to gather as much helpful information as we can so that we can consolidate it and pass it along to Blizzard.

Here is an example of the kind of thing we are looking for. You do 50% less damage and 25% less healing in PvP combat. Special thanks to our mods Duckers and Slappy who came up with the idea.
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#1 zalae

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 08:19 AM

I think it's pretty clear that damage needs to be toned down, and as implied by Tyveris healing may need to be toned down to mirror it. The question is: what's the difference between how quickly people die now, and how quickly they should die? We can pretty easily determine how quickly people die now, it's more of a question of how quickly they should die.

A fully PvE geared rogue (specced for arena, prolly 41/5/25) that pops a use:+ap trinket and cold blood should not be able to kill a fully pvp geared disc priest that has power word shield and inner fire up in the duration of cheap shot + kidney shot.

If the rogue has a teammate who adds a moderate amount of damage (say 50% of what the rogue does) and the priest chooses to not trinket the ks and the priest gets no significant help from his teammate, he should die.

^ may not be the exact guideline you use, but something along those lines is how it should be determined exactly how much damage needs to be reduced by.

#2 Kraum

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 08:54 AM

Adding to that idea of doing 50% less dmg 25% less healing, make that 40% less dmg 10% less healing and the part I want to add, make that an 8 set bonus in pvp including honor items, there goes your pve gear abuse and all your problems solved forever, so you can balance the classes without considering different gear sets (holy paladins, rogues in pve gear etc)

#3 Astroria

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 09:32 AM

i think 20% and 10% should be fine, otherwise you could as well completely forbid dd based lineups as well and we'd be back to world of healcraft. Further i think 8 pieces bonus is way too much, i mean the possibility to gear as you want shouldnt be destroyed in an mmorpg, even in pvp.

#4 Vander

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 09:42 AM

I'd say we wait for capped resi in arena.

Yes the burst is high
Yes its possible it will still be high

but before we pull numbers out of our asses we need to know how bad it WILL be, not how bad it IS

#5 Asmodean

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 09:49 AM

NO!

Waiting for capped Resi makes no sense at all. It is obvious that it is not just the high crits, plain damage is way out of control. Resi wont fix that.

As a cloth wearer I can not accept to be out of the game for a season. Particularly as all the currently OP classes will get their gear much faster which might open the gap even further.
(Currently OP = those who dish out insane dmg while being not so dependant on PvP Gear for survuvability: palas, DKs, rogues)

The current state is completely inacceptable for me. Almost no skill invovled and it is not even remotely funny to be killed in a GCD.

Blizzard needs to act NOW. Otherwise a lot of PvPers will lose motivation. Not only because of the current state but also because of the impression Blizz not bothering or being capable to fix it!

#6 venguile

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:03 AM

the burst will still be high even at capped resilience.  this is NOT TBC.

in the transition from 60 to 70, we saw everyone gain double the HP, everyone obtained resilience, but no one's damage skyrocketed.

this is not what happened in wrath.  in wrath, everyone's damage skyrocketed and outpaced the distributed HP and resilience.  capped resilience will not save anyone in arenas from certain classes, period.  damage will only go up as people obtain more resilience, and resilience will continue fail if it's job is to "stop people from dying to simple burst"

blizzard should buff resilience to reducing overall damage taken from other players, while giving it a slight MS effect for the bearer.  make the numbers similar in fashion to the numbers posted by the mods in the original post.  30-50% damage reduced at cap, with an added MS effect equal to half or one-third of the damage reduced.  this would probably finally divide PvE and PvP while fixing the problem blizzard walked right into

the idea of giving passive mitigation independent of gear in PvP combat is a bad one IMO, because it will create a further asymmetry between PvP gear and PvE gear.  the idea of the arenas is to also allow people to focus on PvP as opposed to PvE.  if everyone has passive mitigation (especially if said mitigation provides a healing debuff), then pushing stats to the max might still be favored, so PvE gear might be favored and resilience will continue to fail as a stat for even the less survivable classes.

edit: oh, also, blizzard needs to start hiring experienced pvpers.

#7 Kcolraw

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:15 AM

30% and 30% is about right i think
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#8 Lolflay

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:17 AM

TLDR:
Make resilience affect normal damage aswell, that way no classes need to be nerfed.

General

-disable Dalaran arena and Orgrimmar arena, Orgrimmar arena needs fixing out of them all... Few classes have been designed about surviving thanks to LoS, there's no LoS in there. And Dalaran arena on other hand has way too much LoS and is too clumped up.
-make resilience affect normal damage aswell. For example "xxx" resilience will : "Reduces effect of mana drains and normal&critical damage by "xyz", and reduces chance to be critically hit by "xxz" "
DOTs have it that way ever since season 2, I've no idea why normal damage isn't based around it.

Mages

-Arcane Barrage needs a 10 second cooldown - make Arcane Blast or w/e the name of the spell is THE main spec in PvE so it doesn't hurt their PvE ability. Running around and spamming one button is getting way out of hand.
-mage+3 images (+water elemental) needs to get solved, its way too much burst who noone can survive ( who doesn't have immunity effect anyway )
-Mage Armor needs a big fat fucking nerf - remove the -50% duration on magic effects or you're looking at magic classes being extinct. For example shaman's shock interrupt lasts only 1 second instead of 2 seconds on mage with mage armor on. Fucking nerf it to the ground, remove the new effect.

Paladins
-Nerf Holy shock a bit, they're just like resto druids now, run around and never stand still and heal.
-ret's dmg is still way out of proportions, and it feels as if the paladin has unlimited mana pool. Caster classes go out of mana and then they get raped by the paladin, simply because the paladin STILL has infinite mana.

Deathknights
-Turning into a ghoul after they die is a fucking joke, not to mention that they do 3k yellows in that aswell. That ability needs to go, otherwise you might aswell allow combat rez and soulstone in arena...
-The Desecrated ground effect is a bit too much, tone down effect of the snare

Druids
-Ferals need bear form to be just a tanking form, not a DPS form in which they're indestructible.
-Resto needs few buffs left and right.

Warriors
-Protection Warriors are fucking bullshit. I've seen a Blizzard post claiming "they're still not as desirable as arms of fury". That's wrong, simply because protection does MORE damage than that in long term and tanks every fucking class.
-Arms needs fixing, more damage to the spec or w/e cause right now it feels pathetic.

Rogues
-tone down ambush/BS dmg, not too much otherwise they'll be crap when full resi hits in.

Warlocks
-they need survivability buffs - and they don't need the "we want to make other pets more useful" - why ? Felhunter is best choice of any warlock seeing other pets provide 0 arena utility. AND felhunter is the one killed the hardest in overall perspective.

Priests
-Fade needs to be off global cooldown and it needs to get changed to full snare immunity for 1 or 2 seconds after activate
-Dispersion needs to return atleast 18% health back to shadowpriest otherwise remove the silence effect on dispersion seeing people can just refresh their debuffs on SP, seeing we're, y'know - silenced.
-discipline needs some minor tweaks, such as allow reflective PW: S to work normally on other targets and make imp PW: S scale off the overall spell not just base effect

Quote

[13:49:14] Creed: u have 20min to find a healer, going for a jog
[13:49:53] Creed: nothing like running through the bush being chased by wild animals to get a proper workout
[13:50:01] Creed: you europeans and ur silly gyms

#9 Guest_Wickler_*

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:23 AM

Excellent that you guys are trying to get a good straight forward ideas to blizzard btw. Will help the process.

What really needs to be looked at is the sort of pvp damage/healing and classes that can do incredible damage and still survive. Maybe this will be fixed if they tone down the damage, but really anything that has a higher survivability factor should less amount of damage/healing factor and that right there is something that is going to plague the pvp design idea.

I know that this may not be the best way to really give a good solution to a short turn around, and honestly the 50% less damage 25% healing idea is a good short turn around idea...

But when you compare a Warlock's Damage and survivability to Mages... You see that one has both the damage and survivability and the other doesn't really have much of either. If the mage can survive better then the warlock should do more damage, yadda yadda.

#10 Karnavorlol

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:35 AM

as many posts before:

nerfing dmg/healing overall scaling it down to our hp boost like 60-70 and scaling the hp's of raid bosses/instance bosses to fit with the dmg nerf's. on paper it looks as though one of the best solutions and easiest one.


edit: i also dont agree with blizzard trying to make all specs for all classes viable in pvp (if that's on topic..?)

#11 Pookette

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:40 AM

yeah trying to make all specs viable is bloody retarded if you ask me, they waste way too much time appeasing hybrids and not enough on classes w/ serious issues overall.

#12 nawty

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:51 AM

Hunters
-they need buffs.


I lold

#13 Lolflay

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:05 AM

They do. Easiest class to focus down and kill as of 24.12.2008.

Quote

[13:49:14] Creed: u have 20min to find a healer, going for a jog
[13:49:53] Creed: nothing like running through the bush being chased by wild animals to get a proper workout
[13:50:01] Creed: you europeans and ur silly gyms

#14 Karzlol

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:07 AM

nawty said:

Hunters
-they need buffs.


I lold

Agreed.

#15 Lolflay

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:11 AM

So you're claiming, as of next patch, when hunter can't spam dual TBW ( agreed its retared ) - that they won't suck compared to rogues, arcane mages etc ? I'm not playing the said class but I find it retardedly easy to train down and that way win the match. But keep such discussion out of here please, Tyveris made this thread not to discuss weakest links in PvP but to help balanace pvp.

Quote

[13:49:14] Creed: u have 20min to find a healer, going for a jog
[13:49:53] Creed: nothing like running through the bush being chased by wild animals to get a proper workout
[13:50:01] Creed: you europeans and ur silly gyms

#16 nawty

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:27 AM

their burst is unmatched atm (yes I know bm gets nerfed) but its still there, I wouldn't say buffed is the right word, call it tweaked abit and I'll agree

#17 Rice

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:43 AM

I think the solution should be a simple one, because the problem is a simple one.  

Make resilience reduce all damage from players by X% and reduce chance to be critically hit by Y% and the effect of mana drain effects by Y%.

The X and Y values are obviously up to debate, but Y should be greater than X.  I didn't use current values because I believe that the "-% to getting crit" part is not strong enough and the "-% damage taken from crits" part is too strong.  The latter part has been removed, as you can see.

IMO, at maxed resilience, X = 10, and Y = 15, which gives us 10% all pvp damage reduction and 15% less chance to get crit, and 15% reduction on drains.

#18 tbe

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:50 AM

nawty said:

their burst is unmatched atm (yes I know bm gets nerfed) but its still there, I wouldn't say buffed is the right word, call it tweaked abit and I'll agree

Los? wtf is bm hunter? they r no match for me, i laught at their face.
Edit: btw mm need buff for dmg n survival too, bm is just for burst.
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#19 Kraum

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:58 AM

Just gonna say 15% is nowhere near enough, i get damaged for 10k in a cheap shot 15% is not gonna help much but the numbers can be worked out. Also I met some people who say warlocks will be done for if they get damage nerf, their dmg is fine they just dont live long enough to do it.

#20 Drizzt

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:59 AM

you are a paladin...

2x Red lighting hunter, the dmg is insane when im playing with my priest a hunter just kills me in a gcd when my cds arent rdy and if he doesnt kill me in a gcd i just ran oom really really fast

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