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Does anyone know if they're taking out artifact weapons? I miss chasing new weapons
I am pretty sure they said multiple times that the artifact weapons are going to "Take their rightful place" (edit: they really made it clear that artifact weps are being taken away but their story will be tied to an end), which means we won't be able to use them anymore. In fact the artifact power system will be replaced by a necklace, which will be given by Azeroth, and as far as I remember it will be leveled via Azerite Power. So, there you go, no matter what expansion the Azerite Power will still be AP, so there will be AP grind in the new expansion as well. So you can feel happy, because you can chase new weapons in The Battle for Azeroth expansion.
Ah, a lawyer I see
Maybe you're right - but to be fair I feel like they'd find some attack surface to poke a hole at - depending on how the "final iteration" of the game turns out it will be almost an exact copy of WoW Arena just with different champions. Also, I assume the US is not the only area whose copyright laws are of interest, the entirety of EUand most importantly Russia ought to also be of substantial interest.
Also, if you ever did become his lawyer I recon you'd get burried by the massive amount of paperwork sent by the hordes of lawyers of Blizzard, because to my knowledge that's what happens to "smaller firms" when they try to take on the big dogs. Honestly, the kind of money he'd have to spend in order to 'win' such a lawsuit (and then to potentially win a counter lawsuit) is not the kind of money he has (afaik) - which is exactly what Blizzard would be betting on in a situation like that.
Let us not make this into "Suits" TV series (good show though )
Well, once you are against a "big dog", you can always seek cooperation through other "big dogs", if you have a solid case at hand, they would be more than happy to help you destroy their opponent, so that they can advertise that case to further promote themselves
And tbh, all he needs is a crazy "Joker" like me, hell, I would just defend him for sake of troubling Blizzard, maybe that way they would improve the arenas and we wouldn't be theorycrafying here
You raise good points as always though. Good night man.
Well, Blizzard tried to sue Dota 2 in the past and the only reason they failed was that A ) Valve was putting all its money into winning the suit and B ) Dota is a game mode that wasn't invented by Blizzard, but rather IceFrog and Valve had IceFrog on their side in the dispute.
If Blizzard were to go after this game whose owner eluded to how his mechanics are similar to if not the exact same as WoW's and even has the working name "The Arena" (named after a game mode in WoW) I don't see how any judge/jury is going to find it not to be copyright infringement. Especially if he 'steals' mechanics / abilities and just renames them. This guy doesn't have all the monetary muscles of Valve to protect himself and is thus going to lose a suit or get so slowed down due to it that he'll just accept defeat I'm afraid.
But hey, I might be wrong and since I really like some class designs from previous expansions of WoW and would really like to see them implemented in to the game I hope I am (because otherwise we can't re-use much from WoW at all).
I just wanted to write about the legal issue since I don't think there is this "one right and one wrong approach" in our discussion. The points you raise are crucial, even though we agree to disagree on most of them.
The legal dispute related to Dota2 mainly revolved around the "DOTA" brand name since Valve wanted to trademark it. In addition the in-game use of characters such as the "Skeleton King" and others were copyrighted by Blizzard. I read the court files as well as the settlement agreement (publicly available version through SEC filings+court filings). First of all, the lawsuit ended with a "Settlement Agreement". Sure, you might want to say one side may have won since they had a higher leverage than the other, but technically, there is neither a winner, nor a loser. Both parties got to reach an agreement on acceptable terms. While Valve could keep the brand "DOTA"-"DOTA2", characters such as the Skeleton King were removed from the game (replaced by Wraith King afaik), so Blizzard also got what they wanted.
The legal issue you raised here would not have valid grounds, since this game in development uses none of the copyrighted materials by Blizzard. Besides, just compare it to the DOTA case, on one hand there is literally copyrighted brands, trademarks and on the other you have some spells which have similar names and work in a completely different game engine/artwork. "The Arena" is a game mode, but not a copyrighted material, it is not a brand. Many games have arena modes. Regarding game mechanics, as long as this "Arena" game didn't steal the game engine (a property of Blizzard), then there is nothing wrong about the mechanics either. As long as a statement is within the scope of fair competition, any person in the US can advertise/compare their products against others (look at advertisements, they usually say theirs is best compared to others for example). Of course, there shouldn't be any defamation. In this case, the dev is not claiming his abilities/spells work exactly like WoW, he is not MISLEADING anyone into thinking his game is WoW-or a WoW copyrighted content. Now I can tell you one thing, and that is the jurisdiction. Valve is based in US so is Blizzard. Since these two companies have their HQ's in the US, the lawsuit was within the jurisdiction of the US courts. However, a Russian company/individual is not within US jurisdiction by default. Therefore, the case would not go to a US court anyway, unless of course this Russian company would have a subsidiary in the US, or it would operate through a distributing company located in the US. Even if that would be the case, the lawsuit would be against the subsidiary / distributing company, and there is literally no copyright infringement at this point anyway. Besides, good luck trying to locate the HQ of a Russian company which sells their games via internet. I don't think the game is intended to be sold in collector's edition package in the US anyway. Therefore, filing a lawsuit just to slow down the business would be very costly for Blizzard (first, they need to locate the HQ, then they need to obtain a court decision and then they have to potentially seek recognition&enforcement on foreign courts via International Treaties, not to mention the lawyer's fees here)
The worst case scenario would be direct misuse/violation of copyrights through some ability characteristics+names (if they were properly copyrighted and protected by Blizzard-we know this is not always the case, you can read more about this at SEC filings (you can find it here: http://investor.acti...ec.cfm?view=all ) if the dev uses copyrigted content. However his game engine is not Blizzard's copyrighted engine, and you should already know WoW itself stole spells/mechanics from other games. They literally have a "Force Choke" from Star Wars: The Old Republic for DK's and just named it Asphyxiate. Did Bioware sue Blizzard ? No...they can't, because there is no valid grounds to do that. A copyrighted material is not easy to identify in games, because the characteristics of it has to be visually the same + introduced by the same engine.
I wish Blizzard would sue this guy though, he would win his case and then he could easily make some millions via countersuit, claiming material damages since his project was damaged via defamation / unfair competition.
If you have ideas for new champions, suggest it here
Give DK, you may even call it "Death Knight" but that would be somewhat unoriginal. Feel free to call it whatever you want but imo you could introduce an undead/shadowy life leeching melee archetype. DK is life for me after all
On the other hand, I think it would be good if you always seek balance b/w melee and ranged. You currently have 2 of 3 different roles, which is good. If you add a DK or an "Undead Lord"/"Necro Lord" (I couldn't resist ) then you might want to add 1 ranged and 1 healer as well, to keep the overall number balanced.
For ranged, you could go with a more tanky/ pressure oriented class, such as a hybrid frost mage/shadowpriest.
As for healer, you could introduce a body blocking in your face melee archetype healer, imagine a paladin with melee wings combined with an enhancement shaman. For this to succeed though, you really have to listen to Ridtur's concern about melees overwhelming the casts and blocking everything. Maybe introduce more roots / knockbacks than gap closers and it should be fine.
Edit/PS: Your current classes dominantly show that the game's concept is more FRP/medieval themed. The only class going against that theme is Mutant. The perception of mutant is somewhat radiation/virus related, which is way off compared to a medieval setting. Maybe change the class name to Demonist / Brute / Hellspawn
Hey, since you mentioned me I felt obligated to respond! Well written post by the way, even if I disagree with a lot of it. I'll post about the things I felt I had something decent to reply with.
You have well written posts yourself, and thank you for taking your time to share your opinion. Here are my replies in order to better clarify my answers&thought process, since English is not my native language, I felt like better explaining certain points here.
I just wanted to draw an example from WildStar. As I said in my previous post, in no way I am a defender of the telegraph system. I just suggested that the dev should find a way to introduce a "unique" mechanism. I think tab targeting in its current state is not user friendly, one of the main reasons making WoW Arena not easy to watch from a "casual/laymen" perspective is tab targeting, since spells&animations work 90% of the time with tab targeting. It creates too much fuss and it is getting a bit old now. Besides, a tab-targeted game system has to have macro support. I mean almost all high-end wow arena players have arena1-2-3 macros, because it allows for a better control and eliminates the delay to target + then cast. That solution itself is an escape from tab-targeting. However, pure 3rd person aim could also be problematic. Therefore that was the reason I suggested that there needs to be something unique, which promotes skill while being user-friendly. Also, it could make plays easier to watch/understand. Essentially, I merely suggested implementing a unique mechanism which would be better than tab-targeting and wanted to show a basic example.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not against tab-targeting. I am just suggesting that if tab-targeting is going to be implemented 100%, it needs to be better, simpler, and more user/spectator friendly. There needs to be that new "unique" touch which creates that desire to play the game.
You mentioned Wildstar, and imo that game was far to spammy, non-focused on CC-chains and suffered from the usual lag problems related to aiming. And I firmly believe all that stems from using far too many AoE spells (either in the form of cones or just aimed like old Blizzard from WoW).
AoE damage de-incentivizes CC (and adding a "does not attack CC'd people" is just weird tbh) and we all know the rage involved with hitting laggy people with aimed abilities.
Oh and the obvious "OOHH I FUCKING HIT HIM, THIS LAG!!!" rage.
On this part, I think lag is lag. The fact that you have tab-targeting or aim doesn't make a difference. Well, of course lag could be more crucial in an aim based environment, and I understand that, but it also hurts in WoW arena as well, especially laggy targets run around pillars, fake position themselves, so I don't think that is a huge issue to be discussed here, since lag is lag
Sure, of course he is doing a good job so far. But I think s/he
A) won't finish the project.
doesn't have the resources to market the project.
C) isn't the right person to be the to be the front face of the project (Russian made PvP games always flop in the EU/US + s/he responded far too agressively to my first post - doesn't bode well).
D) will get shut down due to copyright infringement. The author even posted a video where he describes how the abilities in his game function just like famous abilities from WoW - gl winning a court case after that one. Doing something like that shows the person isn't ready to lead a project like this.
I cannot say for sure if the project can finish or be successful, but kickstarters are there for a reason. If the project attracts a crowd, then you may be looking at a big success, now I am not saying this could be true, but it is a possibility.
With regards to the copyright infringement, as long as there is no official marketing / statement about the game taking stuff away from WoW, there shouldn't be a problem. You can call your skills as "Shadowstep", "Wraith Walk" etc because they are neither a Blizzard brand, nor a copyrighted material. If he uses Arthas as a class though, that is a different story The copyright infringement comes into play when a copyrighted material is used w/o permission. At this point, the dev is free to compare his game to WoW, as long as there is no defamation of course.
I don't know about the game market strategy and how being Russian affects it. That is not my area of expertise therefore I cannot say anything about that.
Someone should try making a real copy of WoW Arena. Without all the fluff-fluff to make it more MOBA-like. That has never been tried before.
Honestly, all I see happening is it being a complete clusterfuck due to casters standing in front of their healers blocking CC forever and melee's always standing in front of casters so they're unable to cast anything on anyone but said melee.
Perhaps you are right. In my previous post, I explained how there should be spells+effects relying on "body-blocking". This could be one of the core features of the game, if implemented and supported correctly. Certain classes could have advantages if their targets are body blocked. Just one example, you are a caster, you have a tab-targeted ability and it is body-blocked. Since your ability did not hit your tab-targeted you might get a damage increase. At this point, you are right and assuming such a scenario, because we do not see any evidence that there are spells+abilities synergizing with/against body blocking.
Another alternative (please do not rage when you read this-I know this could sound REALLY crazy, but it is just an idea) could be implementing a tab-target system, such that, your projectiles can actually be guided with your mouse/aim so that you could curve them around the body-blocker, just like a curved ball soccer free kick. Imagine a chaos bolt curving left and right to pass through the body-blocker to hit the initial target. While you keep the main system as tab-targeting, the aim comes into play, when you actually guide your projectile to a certain extent (to a certain extent means your tab-targeted ability will most likely hit the target, but you can choose left/right up down etc to give it a curve). This of course is just an idea.
I am not going to go over the parts where we agreed. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts, and I hope I better explained myself.
While there is a discussion about targeting, I think the aim factor MAY (please notice I said MAY with caps) allow a player to bring more "skill" to the table. Let us just consider the most "skill based" game in competitive gaming. Of course some will say Starcraft, some will say Dota etc. but for me, it is undoubtedly CS. The reason for CS being so skillcapped is not a complex issue. First, the aim factor (under the aim factor, you have branches such as spray control, tapping, range, positioning, reflex, etc) allows players with better aims to excel against others (excluding teamplay here) and second, the mindgames in CS allows players to combat mentally as well (teamplay, fake strats, fake sounds, fake flash, split tactics, fake sprays, fake reloads, smoke rushing etc.)
As you can see, while the aim itself of course brings a higher skillcap, it is these mindgames what makes a game so entertaining. You see these top level mindgames in Dota, LoL, Starcraft, CS:GO, apart from the actual hard-earned skill itself (aim in cs is hard earned, just like the micromanagement and teamplay in Dota, LoL, [no teamplay in SC but it is the king of micromanagement]).
Then on the other hand, you have the WoW arena. I am not going to bash it here, but it is certain that there is a group of players (including myself) who like the concept of 3v3 PvP in an arena setting. While many games tried to take it to a next-generation level, many failed, and this should be a lesson to be learned by potential developers and potential next-generation systems.
Frankly, I think the creator of "The Arena" game is doing a good job. Of course, there is room for improvement, and it is probably why he/she is posting here, to get feedback.
Let me speak about the aim factor first, I think while the aim in a 3rd person setting could be good, it could also be devastating as well, in terms of game fluidity. The reason is simple, lack of control. As certain posters pointed out, aim has to go hand in hand with movement/positioning, so a hunter kiting and trying to hit a target at the same time will have a much harder time vs certain classes. There should be a reward for accomplishing such a challenge, or the game itself should have more fluidity. This is the main reason that CS is far better compared to CoD etc. In this case, I will draw an example from WildStar. I know it couldn't kill WoW etc. but it introduced lots and lots of interesting/fun stuff alongside with potentially good game mechanics. I will not advocate that the telegraph system is next-gen level, but it was a change from tab-targeting. In addition, there were certain spells which required tab-targeting. This mash-up of skills was most obvious in Esper class (in WildStar). The hybrid mechanism was actually good (again, I am not saying that the telegraph system is superior). Therefore, "The Arena" could distinguish between skills which require actual aim, vs skills which require tab-targeting. Both is skill, but one is aim, the other one is micromanagement. Since you are in between, why not introduce both, to create a higher skill ceiling while actually improving game fluidity ? Your unique hybrid mechanism could bring a next-gen level itself, if it is good enough.
In WoW, you have fake casting, positioning, movement (grip/blink) etc. Try to find ways to bring more interesting / better mindgames with your game. I read that Ridtur mentioned body blocking. In this game, the first time I was watching it, I thought to myself : "If there is actual body blocking this could be good." Imagine what could body blocking potentially bring to your game. The level of teamplay would drastically improve, the actual positioning would matter. Your "mutant" class could accomplish more than just chasing someone to death (I know it as fear/CC etc but imagine if the mutant could actually take the hits via positioning, and if there are skill based purely around this concept). Certain classes could have certain spells such that body-blocking would actually benefit them offensively etc. Therefore, I think you are definitely adding a good element by introducing the body blocking.
Another alternative would be introducing a synergy between aimed and targeted targets. You could create a mechanism such that it would allow more synergy in combination with aim based spells + tab-targeted spells.
Cosmetics is also important. For example, if you get blinded, the whole screen should go dark, but you should still be able to move and attack (with a reduced hit rate of course). In addition, as a FRP guy myself, I am going to say this but please don't burn me, but polymorph should not break on damage
Your game looks a bit grim, it reminds me more of a Mortal Combat/Prototype mash-up. If this is the message you'd like to convey, then bring more reflex-related, reaction based skills, and make it look more violent, more aggressive.
However, speaking from my own experience, colours are good. Colourful games are more stimulant compared to grim looking games (there are several papers on this issue). So, if you could introduce a bit more colour/maybe also in a cartoony fashion, your game will do better against aging.
In summary, there is potential in this game. I hope you will make it more user friendly while creating more depth in the actual skill-level itself. I have some ideas, and this post is waaaaaay too long anyway, but I wish you good luck with your project.
so you wanna pew pew while listening to music casually que with random lfg ppl and dont care about rating or just que skirms?
Ofc I don't. Just showing some empathy.
Edit: I basically explained in my answer how it could actually help players coordinate (potentially)
Honestly, i dont think solo queue would do anything to the game atm. If people dont want to play a shit game with premades, they wont do it with solo queue. Can you just imagine a new player trying to heal through Feral/Ret/FrostDK/etc dmg? He'll try max 5 games, get shit on every time and never queue arena aver again.
Solo Q system is not intended to introduce PvP to new players. The whole point of the Solo Q system is to bring alternative incentives to PvP'ers at upper-intermediate to lower-intermediate ends, while potentially enhancing social aspects of PvP as well. A new player should learn his/her class in BG's and skirmishes first, if they are jumping directly into Solo Q ranked, and learn it that way, it is their choice. Essentially to Solo Q system does not have to be "new player" friendly. The main objective is to entertain the aforementioned pvp population.
Also fact that some classes would have 20x easier time to rank up same with healers ... wow isnt a game for soloq if anything blizzard should focus on current 3v3 bracket add more incentive to play the game. Adding spectate client would be a great start or working on LFG system.
Players that complain about lfg are ones that are the most cancerous to que with from my experiance. Legit getting asked for cr day 3 of season by players who have 1200 rating less exp and then same retards are making threads on forums how they have none to q with.
Soloq wouldnt fix anything same players that qq would keep on qqing since most players in this game have dunning kruger syndrome where they believe that they are gods gift to game and they deserve x rating.
Every single season theres new players climbing to top of ladder/getting their first gladiators etc its really not hard it takes time and effort (but isnt that the point of the game).
I must say that the points you brought up are undeniable, and the truth hurts. However, the Solo Q wouldn't necessarily harm the current state of WoW-PvP. The main contribution of the Solo Q would be bringing fresh life to the PvP scene by making matchmaking easier. Let's face it, most players who are casually interested in PvP want do pew pew opponents while listening to their own music, without voice chat. So forget coordination. This Solo Q system allows for people to come together and potentially form bonds with each other (wow this sounds weird but yeah). Simply put, it reduces the effort to play. What people are complaining about is actually a financial problem: Player A has to put in 50 effort to play arena with randoms from LFG. In this 50, time is 30 and risk of losing is 20. With Solo Q, the effort is reduced, since it potentially should take (theoretically) less time, and the randomness of Solo Q evens out the riskiness of losing against OP comps/facerolls. Is there an alternative to the Solo Q ? Of course, your points are spot on and there will be negatives no matter what, as you have mentioned.
All in all, it still wouldn't hurt to implement such a system.
they should make soloque heal/caster/melee teams only.
Obviously there will be some stronger mhc than others but the difference is smaller than in a ffa environment when it could be possible to match dk+warr+sham vs affli+Hunter+mw as an example.
But soloque as mhc could make room for a lot of new comp/speccs to shine which are not possible on higher ladder.
On AT it was aswell amazing like this. saddlybecause of not a big population they had to change it some time ago to an ffa system where you already know before the gates open when you get matched as tsg/lsp vs something like hunter/mage/hpal that you will win.
but when it was mhc the outcome of the match almsot always was decided by the individual players skills and how they played together
Good points, and as previously mentioned the problem of adjusting comps/teams can be solved through statistical data.
It is very funny how "Balancing the Game" is still a concern while talking about the Solo Q system. "Balance" was promised eons ago... No progress was made ever since.
The balance argument is of little importance right now, because why would you try to balance Solo Q's in a completely imbalanced equation ? Alternatives to PvP reward system should be prioritized
It is extremely crucial and it could seriously revitalize the PvP, by adding more to its social aspects as well. Supporting this idea 100%
the clip doesn't show the entire match, during which he actually crossed the whole Casper's style.. like going from one side to the other.
Well tbh I don't have to watch the entire match since that short clip speaks for itself. It was so obvious that Pala was up to something. He was literally walking inside pillars.
This has existed forever. In all arenas where there are jagged edges, you are actually LoS, you can cast on your teammates but others can't cast on you. I have had this happen where my healer gets sheeped on the edge of the pillar, and i try to Wild Charge and it says that the target is not in line of sight. Also sometimes I can't regrowth people that are on the edge of (or very close to/humping) pillars. I'm telling you it has been in the game since it was released.
I think the important point to observe here is that the player in the shown video (check enemy paladin for example) is able to walk straight into the pillar. This goes beyond the jagged edge los, which is an okay-ish mechanic (it is acceptable).
Definitely an exploit, since it goes beyond a use of game mechanic.
The pillar-hump game just reached a whole new level... a russian level:
So, I was doing some 3s no voice for fun with friends yesterday night and accidentally my mage friend happened to be streaming. This great russian player, Putin's pride, managed to walk through walls and los/avoid any dmg/cc. Brilliant
In another video, a player was falling down from the tomb in Ruins of Lordaeron Arena. It is really saddening to see these kind of bugs/ exploits. If this bug occurred with the application of 7.2.5 I am not surprised at all, since there are tons of bugs in the game atm (by looking at the calendar on minimap I guess it did).
You guys are forgetting gc had 0 control of actual stats/spell design etc, everything was made for pve.
But in legion this retard had acces to change stats to any ability/spec/class he could also add abilities/extra talents for pvp environment its actually sad how he managed to make the game this boring and unbalanced at the same time.
He thought adaptation/relentless is a good idea for the game, just let that sink in.
He didnt even have to balance around pve gear -.- Blizz couldve literally picked up any wow player above 2k exp and he would probably make a better desigend pvp game
Good analysis, and very hard to understand how people can still fuck up years later...
I'm wondering what kind of different job he got offered and also who will take his place.
With regards to the new project he is going to work in, there are rumors about a Diablo MMO project (a lot of Blizzard job openings for a Diablo project, including extremely essential positions). Now I am well aware that I am spreading a rumor here, but all these new Diablo job postings etc is very, very suspicious, especially when compared to the current maintenance mode of D3.
In any way, we cannot be sure of anything at the moment, let us hope that the new person who is going to replace Holinka will do a much, much better job.
The Blizzard Way: Taking Turns (for balancing)
So all this PvP Template + distinguished PvP Talents etc was not planned to provide balance to the game. It was designed to make the Imba OP turns more frequent/easier. #mastertheory #askingtherealquestions #illuminati
While your opinion does make sense per se, I don't think that this is what went through the Developers' heads when they changed the amrory!
I agree with you man but you know, that was just my opinion, and it was a very optimistic one, the final part of my statement should be more realistic
why it has never shown the pvp talents or the artifact traits builds ?
To prevent people from copycatting, also if you remember, before there were arena teams, it was showing the team members etc, caused people to use FoTM setups faster. They basically think by giving less information on the armory, they are slowing down the emergence of OP specs and FoTM setups, and they believe it helps balancing the game. That's my opinion on it anyway. Otherwise, incompetency at its best.
"Templates for instanced PvP, aswell as specific talents for PvP are going to make the balancing way easier, especially if certain classes or specializations need adjustments quickly." - Blizzard 2k16 Or some shit along those lines.
Don't really see a lot of those quick adjustments.
Very well said, the whole purpose of having PvP Templates + Honor Talents etc was to provide more balance and apply quick fixes to imbalances. All that is observed so far is a faster shift of balance. The same problem exists for years, they are just applying make-up and then marketing it over and over again.