[2v2] Druid/lock vs Pally/lock. Both SL/SL

[Phiers]

We've fought this team about 8 times and went 7-1. Basically, the druid is literally at 0 mana and while the lock stops mana draining long enough to dmg him, he gets enough mana to keep himself up. We had him out of mana for almost 10 minutes one game, and still couldn't finish him off.

I'm guessing my only chance is to chain a stun, spell lock, fear, deathcoil, aoe silence, while using avenging wrath, a 2her, and a hammer, with a full rank concecration down. But I'd like to hear if we have any other options.

[Duljan]

We've fought this team about 8 times and went 7-1. Basically, the druid is literally at 0 mana and while the lock stops mana draining long enough to dmg him, he gets enough mana to keep himself up. We had him out of mana for almost 10 minutes one game, and still couldn't finish him off.

I'm guessing my only chance is to chain a stun, spell lock, fear, deathcoil, aoe silence, while using avenging wrath, a 2her, and a hammer, with a full rank concecration down. But I'd like to hear if we have any other options.

These are generally long fights (20 minutes +). I have to drink 7-8 times just to stand a chance. Druids are near impossible to kill and their mana regeneration needs a pretty hefty nerf. I mean, paladins received the nerf bat to our illumination talent when our mana was out of control. I wonder when Blizzard will step in against Druids.

If your warlock had a felhunter on him, all he has to do is pop a lifebloom and then pop a rejuv. If it looks like the warlock has auto-devour turned off, then the druid is even better shape. Those two spells alone (about 400 mana with talents?) will outheal all DoTs put on the druid.

Drink a lot, make sure your lock is always DPS'ing both targets, and good luck.

[Phiers]

so auto-devour off or on?

And I drank plenty of times, at one point I had about 70% mana, druid had 1%, and still couldnt kill him.

[Duljan]

so auto-devour off or on?

And I drank plenty of times, at one point I had about 70% mana, druid had 1%, and still couldnt kill him.

It goes both ways. Just depends on our mood and who we're fighting. Against druid teams, my partner (and me too, on my lock) generally leaves his auto-devour on until we're certain that thorns and motw are off of both players. Then he turns it off. Sometimes he leaves it off the whole match. It just depends.

As far as him being low in mana, have you ever looked at druid merciless gear and/or veteran's gear? It ALL has mp5 on it. Also, lifebloom costs less mana than flash of light, but with merciless and veterans heals for more (about 500 more).

*shrug* He doesn't need much mana to keep himself alive.

[kyoshi]

ok when the drood is OOM, thats when your paladin goes to keep him in combat, while you burn down the other lock, or just DOT both of them up. druid can keep himself up all he wants, can't do both of them at the same time.
yea be ready for long fights.
when i get mirror matches it sucks

[Nm]

Split dps more than you would normally when the druid is oom - he can't heal both people as well, and one of them will eventually wear down. This is where your communication comes in. You should have your pally come in with you, and just ignore mana drains on him. When the druid is at 0 mana, you should have full dots on him, and yell for the pally to stun him. Once the pally stuns him, and he's in line of sight, cast a shadowbolt and fear, then you can pretty much do whatever else you want to kill him.

Killing a druid at 0 mana takes quite a bit of time, and it's definitely one of the most annoying things in arena. One HoT is going to cancel out all of your HoT's, so it comes down to your burst damage as well. Have the pally do some dps to him as well, it's not much, but it'll definitely help.

You can also switch to the warlock, but because druid mana regen is so high, I dont like to take the risk that he'll be able to get 2k mana back if I leave him alone for 30 seconds.

[Nn]

Once the Druid runs oom, your Paladin must make sure that he takes advantage of any chance he get to drink.

Call for your Warlock to fear the opposing Lock to avoid any chance of a mana drain so you can stun the opposing team's Druid.

It's a very tough fight and it can go on for 30 min if the Druid knows how to kite and drink on the BE map.

[razed]

dot lock + fear + banish on pet = gg

u know after the druid is oom

should do this anyway midfight

[Molp]

Druids are near impossible to kill and their mana regeneration needs a pretty hefty nerf. I mean, paladins received the nerf bat to our illumination talent when our mana was out of control. I wonder when Blizzard will step in against Druids.


What mana regen are you talking about? We have innervate (which is not applicable here since you complain about our healing at zero mana, also the lock can drain it off) and a talent that gives us 15% regen while casting (which other casters also have - and woot for 150 spirit in PvP gear).

Other than that our mana regen is exactly that of everyone else. Worse than a pally's usually since pallies can afford to stack PvE gear in 2v2 while for druids its all stamina and resilience. And we have no talent that compares to illumination (well we do have dreamstate but its deep in the balance tree). So, really, what about our mana regen should be nerfed? Virtually all my regen when OOM comes from mana/5 gear.

You seem to have some irrational hatred against druids. I am sorry that your class is only the second best healer in 2v2. But, man - relax.

[Grup]

Druids are near impossible to kill and their mana regeneration needs a pretty hefty nerf. I mean, paladins received the nerf bat to our illumination talent when our mana was out of control. I wonder when Blizzard will step in against Druids.


What mana regen are you talking about? We have innervate (which is not applicable here since you complain about our healing at zero mana, also the lock can drain it off) and a talent that gives us 15% regen while casting (which other casters also have - and woot for 150 spirit in PvP gear).

Other than that our mana regen is exactly that of everyone else. Worse than a pally's usually since pallies can afford to stack PvE gear in 2v2 while for druids its all stamina and resilience. And we have no talent that compares to illumination (well we do have dreamstate but its deep in the balance tree). So, really, what about our mana regen should be nerfed? Virtually all my regen when OOM comes from mana/5 gear.

You seem to have some irrational hatred against druids. I am sorry that your class is only the second best healer in 2v2. But, man - relax.

Shaman and paladins do not have 15% regen while casting. The only two healers that do are druid and priest. Many priests have to expend a ton of mana to stay alive against certain classes. As a resto shaman in full merciless/honor gear, I have 59 mana per 5 (with rejuvenating gem on, giving me 9 of that). I cannot afford to switch to PvE gear, as I am unable to kite like a druid. You have 106 mp5 without a rejuvenating gem on. See the difference?

There is a reason druid is the most dominant healer in 2v2, while being one of the least played classes in WoW (and tons of those that DO play druid are feral).

[Molp]

Shaman and paladins do not have 15% regen while casting. The only two healers that do are druid and priest. Many priests have to expend a ton of mana to stay alive against certain classes. As a resto shaman in full merciless/honor gear, I have 59 mana per 5 (with rejuvenating gem on, giving me 9 of that). I cannot afford to switch to PvE gear, as I am unable to kite like a druid. You have 106 mp5 without a rejuvenating gem on. See the difference?


The 15% is meaningless due to 150 spirit. Unless you consider less than 3 mana per second game breaking. I mean, I can almost cast a lifebloom every minute with that. In 3 minutes, I can shift to bear with that mana so I can have the same armor that pallies get all the time.

I am wearing full PvP gear and almost exclusively defensive gems/enchants. If you have half as much mana regen from gear then tell Blizzard to put more of it on S3. But the extra regen comes at a big item budget cost. Every healer except pallies must stack defensive gear. So that is not an argument. I don't know why shamans get less mana/5 than druids.

Again, where does our overpowered regen come from? Which oh-so-OP talent do we have that makes our mana regen faster than yours? I would like to know because I can't seem to find it (other than deep in the balance tree).

Druids are the strongest healers in 2v2 (and weakest in 5v5, but that is what the gods-of-5v5-pallies tend to ignore when QQing about druids) but mana regen is not the reason.

[Doc]

I play with a UA lock so my perspective is a little different, but I dont know how any Druid would go OOM before a paladin. Its just impossible. I dont even have to innervate against paladin lock teams 50% of the time before the match is over.

When the druid is OOM, get CoS on the warlocks pet, and add a dot or two depending on your spec. Keep on the druid, but when possible dot up the warlock. If the druid takes off and his lock buddy is nearby, drain the lock's mana. When his mana is near oom, do what you can to inflict some additional damage. Some people believe banishing the fel hunter is the better route, but I find that I am the most hard pressed when I just went oom and now the warlock and pet needs their occasional heals. I get forced to pop out and heal which usually means I get a dot or two on myself. Its here when the game can turn sour quick.

With Dots on the oom warlock and a bleeding fel hunter, the druid's low mana pool will be taxed too much. While he should be able to heal himself just fine with regen, multiple targets taking damage and the threat of the lock's pet dying is a lot of pressure.

This of course is provided that you can get the druid OOM before your healer is, which if this happens, makes me think you are playing against some bad druids.

[Doc]

Once the Druid runs oom, your Paladin must make sure that he takes advantage of any chance he get to drink.

Call for your Warlock to fear the opposing Lock to avoid any chance of a mana drain so you can stun the opposing team's Druid.

It's a very tough fight and it can go on for 30 min if the Druid knows how to kite and drink on the BE map.

Or you could be like NM and NN, their simular names cause easy confusion when reading name plates which leads to poor loSing in nagrand. Man, that was frustrating. I totally dropped the ball that fight. GJ btw

Docovertime

[Nm]

Once the Druid runs oom, your Paladin must make sure that he takes advantage of any chance he get to drink.

Call for your Warlock to fear the opposing Lock to avoid any chance of a mana drain so you can stun the opposing team's Druid.

It's a very tough fight and it can go on for 30 min if the Druid knows how to kite and drink on the BE map.

Or you could be like NM and NN, their simular names cause easy confusion when reading name plates which leads to poor loSing in nagrand. Man, that was frustrating. I totally dropped the ball that fight. GJ btw

Docovertime

Rofl, I always imagine the other team's vent being something like this: "Get on Nm!" "The Pally?" "No - Nm!"

Glad to see we confused some people =P

[Duljan]

If you have half as much mana regen from gear then tell Blizzard to put more of it on S3. But the extra regen comes at a big item budget cost.

I'm going to put this false idea to rest right here.


Compare the sets (Merciless + Veterans -- since the neck and ring are universal, I'll exclude them)

Druid

Chest http://thottbot.com/i31991
Shoulders http://thottbot.com/i31990
Legs http://thottbot.com/i31989
Helm http://thottbot.com/i31988
Gloves http://thottbot.com/i31987
Belt http://thottbot.com/i32800
Boots http://thottbot.com/i32788
Bracer http://thottbot.com/i32812


Total +Healing? 545
Total mp5? 59 mp5
Total Resil? 233
Total Stam? 331
Total Int? 228
Total Spell crit? (excluding int) 0%

Paladin

Chest http://thottbot.com/i32020
Shoulders http://thottbot.com/i32024
Legs http://thottbot.com/i32023
Helm http://thottbot.com/i32022
Gloves http://thottbot.com/i32021
Belt http://thottbot.com/i32988
Boots http://thottbot.com/i32990
Bracer http://thottbot.com/i32989


Total +Healing? 461
Total mp5? 0
Total Resil? 245
Total Stam? 342
Total Int? 216
Total Spell crit? (excluding int) 9.3%

So let's compare stats. Druids, compared to paladins, have on their gear:

+Healing? +84
mp5? (From gear only) +59
Int? +12

and the cost of

Resil? -12
Stam? -11
Spell crit? -9.3%

Where's the "big item budget cost"? eh? We get 12 more resi, 110 more HP, and 9.3% more crit, while you get 84 more healing, 59 more mp5, and 180 more mana. Looks to me like you're getting the better part of the deal.


Every healer except pallies must stack defensive gear.

Says who? 6 out of 9 classes use SPELL DAMAGE as their primary source of damage, so our plate is not as useful as it's made out to be. And with warlocks being so powerful, arguments could be made that plate is downright useless. Especially in this thread, which is entitled "Druid/lock vs Pally/lock. Both SL/SL".

Furthermore, yesterday we went up against a paladin + rogue team. The rogue was wielding the warglaive of azzinoth mainhand AND offhand. Paladins going up against rogues wielding those badboys feel like we're wearing cloth. I run with about 362 resi, which is more than most paladins use. For that match in particular, I was thanking God that I had it.



Again, where does our overpowered regen come from? Which oh-so-OP talent do we have that makes our mana regen faster than yours? I would like to know because I can't seem to find it

It comes from

a) your gear
b) innervate

You see, illumination was nerfed in paladins, not because 100% return of mana on crits was OP, but because in combination with divine illumination we were actually GAINING mana on crits. Yes, that was OP. Furthermore, paladins have no way -- other than blessing of wisdom (which gets eaten, purged, dispelled all too often) -- to gain back our mana once we're 00m. The mere fact that so many people have posted countless threads EVEN ON THIS FORUM wondering how the heck to kill druids -- because even when 00m, their mana regen is too great to overcome -- should be an indicator of a huge problem.

Lifebloom is twice as efficient as flash of light, your mana regen is the best of all the healers, and your survivability (which PALADINS should be the master of) is the best of all the healers.

These are the biggest problems to date.


There is a simple fix, though. Warlocks and Druids are the most over-represented classes in 2v2. Blizzard had an answer for warlocks. Resil reduces DoT damage. Nice change. The answer for druids? Easy. Make it so that the resilience of your healing target reduce the effectiveness of HoTs as well. So, for example, if PersonA has enough resilience to reduce DoT damage by 10%, make it so that PersonA's resil also reduces the amount of healing received by HoTs by 10% as well.

Easy fix. Druid is balanced in 2s, and isn't really affected in 3s and 5s.