[2v2] Pally/Lock vs Rogue/Shaman

[Phiers]

This is actually the first time I've gone up against that combo, so I didn't know what to expect. What happened was, freedom was insta-purged, I got shock spammed, and wound psn won the fight handily for the other team.

Any tips?

[Demonized]

Dispel alot, since everything they can do to you guys is dispellable.

These groups don't seem all too common though.

[Phiers]

Spamming cleanse on wound psn's not going to win the match, when my lock partner can barely move. The shaman was at about 80% mana both times we fought them at the end, simply because we were completely locked down the entire fight.

[Grup]

I run rogue/resto shaman in 2v2, we're at 2121 right now but have a ridiculously hard time with any warrior team (almost an auto-loss really). We annihilate paladin/warlock and I honestly don't think there's much you can do. Your best hope, by far, is to try to mana drain spam the shaman, and when he's out of mana, keep your pet on him (and maybe paladin watching him) to prevent him from drinking, then kill the rogue. You won't kill a shaman with nature's guardian while a rogue is on you, so don't try.

[Duljan]

My team fought a couple rogue/shaman groups early on and didn't have much trouble. Here's the trick:


Actually, paladins should be using this tactic vs ANY shaman + dps team. It's very simple. Keep your distance. It couldn't get much simpler than that for your paladin.

Shocks have a 20 yard range. Heals have a 40 yard range. To put it into a visual for you:

W= warlock R= Rogue P=Paladin S=Shaman


P ---40yrds--- W - R ------- S


Try to keep that direct line in tact at all times. If the shaman can't shock the paladin, you're in good shape.

Here's another trick as well.

Have your paladin go to Karazhan and get http://thottbot.com/i28590

Ribbon of Sacrifice is an amazing trinket for pvp if used correctly. The 5-stack of +30 healing you get? They're all magic. Yes, that means if there's an offensive dispeller on the other team, this trinket works WONDERS.

Whenever the paladin needs a drink, simply pop the trinket and spam FoL on your warlock. Then hit him with a BoP when Death Coil is up. Bam! Thanks to stoicism and your 5 magic buffs there, the offensive dispeller spends the entire 8 seconds trying to get the BoP off. Even if he manages to get it off semi-early (rarely happens), then Death Coil buys your paladin another few seconds of quality drinking time.

This is a mana-fight, remember that. In fact, any fight where the opposing team has Mortal Strike, Wounding Poison, or a Druid, it's going to be a tough mana fight. Make sure your paladin is using divine illumination whenever it's up. Make sure he's using the Ribbon of Sacrifice + BoP trick. Make sure he's drinking whenever possible. Make sure he's ONLY casting Flash of Light. Holy Lights will drain him fast. Although, Rank 4 Holy Light might work too.

One last tip: move often. Remember the Bat Boss from ZG? Yeah, move around in a circle like that. The shaman will be dropping totems (as he should) whenever they time out or whenever they move out of range. Make sure you're always moving them out of range. This will drain the shaman's mana as well.


Do all of these things, and it should be an easy fight.

[Grup]

While the above tips may work against shaman/rogue teams that aren't very good, I wouldn't suggest trying all of that. We beat all pally/warlock teams and I do not waste time or mana earthshocking the paladin, since it is a longevity fight, there becomes little reason to do so, I also LoS the warlock so that he has to dps the rogue. The rogue exposes armor on the warlock and locks him down, preventing much DPS, and the shaman is able to use low rank heals on the rogue, while regenerating mana from water shield while the felhunter attacks him (and probably casting rank 1 healing wave on himself - the felhunter will instead devour the healing way buff and not the water shield, this means the shaman out manas the paladin even if wound poison wasn't there). The problem with the above strategy is the rogue will go after the paladin during the BoP to prevent him from drinking. After BoP has been used, and if the paladin tries to go drink again, this is the time for the shaman to go all out, as well as the rogue, and the warlock will die (if the paladin ran off to try and drink).

I still think your best and only chance is to drain the shaman's mana, this means you'll have to be quick on the deathcoil on a rogue and try to just spam mana drain on the shaman. A rogue with wound poison will simply out DPS the warlock without any healing debuff, and when that warlock isn't putting out a lot of DPS due to stunlock, it allows the shaman to be just as (if not more) efficient than the paladin using low rank healing waves. Once the warlock has to begin to lifetap, it's probably over, and both pets are probably dead by now (paladin out of range to heal the pet, and if the pet wasn't on the shaman, he has an even EASIER time to drink).

So yea, drain mana, stay consistent with it, a rogue is going to be able to cloak of skill your DoTs and kick/stun your drains regularly so your only hope is to drain that shaman.

[Duljan]

The problem with the above poster is the totems, as I said. You have to keep moving. You can't expect to drain the shaman worth a damn. You might get 1 or 2 ticks off, but it's not worth it. Keep moving and dps both targets. You'll win the fight if you follow my directions.

[Phiers]

Yeah, I'll tell my lock with a rogue keeping him from doing almost anything to dps two targets, while I'm spamming my ass off to barely keep him alive. OKAY! /sarcasm

[faction]

dps both targets mean cycle dots on both targets

[Phiers]

As pretty much every 2v2 as warlock/paladin is, it's a mana war, and I just dont see how we have a chance. 2 sets of dots, and then spamming mana drain, when the shaman can just get out of range, the lock's getting pounded, and I'm spamming heals for 1000 hps, is going to run me OOM a lot faster than the shaman :S

[Grup]

The problem with the above poster is the totems, as I said. You have to keep moving. You can't expect to drain the shaman worth a damn. You might get 1 or 2 ticks off, but it's not worth it. Keep moving and dps both targets. You'll win the fight if you follow my directions.

I guarantee that if a warlock didn't cast mana drain on me we would never in a million years lose to pally/warlock, never. What totems are you talking about even? Tremor totem = extremely cheap, grounding totem = extremely cheap and you can't really kite from its effects, healing stream/mana stream = extremely cheap and pretty much inconsequential in the scheme of this matchup. What's the problem with the totems? If the rogue isn't using both crippling and wound poison, you win easily, and if he is using both, he can't get windfury.

To the OP, you just have to realize there are matchups you aren't favored to win, and unless the other team messes up, you probably won't win. As shaman/rogue, we always lose to druid/rogue, always lose to druid/warrior, always lose to really any warrior teams. This is just the nature of WoW and you just have to accept some teams are going to beat you. Be happy shaman/rogue is a rarity these days. Like I've said, your best bet is to create distance with the rogue as much as possible (even if you have to HoJ the shaman to keep him from laying another tremor while your warlock spams fear on the rogue to create enough separation to mana drain).

[Duljan]

I guarantee that if a warlock didn't cast mana drain on me we would never in a million years lose to pally/warlock, never.


The difference is that while the paladin can drink, the shaman cannot. It's that simple.

And to one of the above posters: Yes, dps both targets means cycle DoTs on both players.

[Grup]

I guarantee that if a warlock didn't cast mana drain on me we would never in a million years lose to pally/warlock, never.


The difference is that while the paladin can drink, the shaman cannot. It's that simple.

And to one of the above posters: Yes, dps both targets means cycle DoTs on both players.


If I know a warlock has no intention of mana draining me, I'll just chase the paladin around. There's no reason I can't be near the paladin, especially due to the fact he's going to have to spend more time healing than I am.

Also, if I'm far from the paladin, I am going to be LoSing the warlock as he gets stunlocked, the pet will then eventually die (twice) and I will be able to drink. Water shield + healing way rank 1 is enough regen to last to the point of both pets dying. If the pet gets called back, I get to drink. A rogue's DPS is infinite and always effective, while the warlock will go oom and have to lifetap, making the burden on the paladin even greater.

[Nm]

Kite the rogue, fear the rogue, drain the shaman.

Pally kills totems.

Don't silence the shaman's heals until he's below 20% mana.

Win.

[Phiers]

How do you kite a rogue when freedom is instantly purged? Crip > exhaustion, and cleanse spamming with wound psn and crip on him is going to run me out of mana while his health is still going down.

[Duljan]

How do you kite a rogue when freedom is instantly purged? Crip > exhaustion, and cleanse spamming with wound psn and crip on him is going to run me out of mana while his health is still going down.

Easily. As Grup said earlier, if he thinks he's not getting drained, he'll chase me around. As soon as he does, I pop freedom on the lock and he gets to kite a bit. Then the shaman realizes what's happening and gets off of me. By then, it's too late. The shaman is far from his totems and gets drained, I top off my lock, and then go drink.

It's a wonderful game of "Lawl @ the dumb shaman".

[Nm]

How do you kite a rogue when freedom is instantly purged? Crip > exhaustion, and cleanse spamming with wound psn and crip on him is going to run me out of mana while his health is still going down.

There's more to kiting than just CoEx - you have a partner, you have other aspects of the game to help you kite.

[Phiers]

Let me rephrase.


Shaman sits in the middle of his totems, about 15 yards from the lock.
Rogue beats shit out of lock.
I spam heals on lock.
Shaman purges freedom, shocks heals (doesnt need to), and does minimal healing.
We lose fight with shaman at 70% mana.

Where in this sequence can I improve something? If I'm running around, my lock will die. If I freedom him, the shaman will purge. Between wotf (not needed), trinket, clos, crip psn, and a barrage of stuns, the rogue's not getting off of the lock's nuts without a freedom, and if the shaman isn't really bad, he'll know this, and stay near the lock, not me. He can win the mana battle just by staying close to the lock, why would he give a crap about me?

[Tyveris]

Make sure the lock deathcoils or spell locks the shaman at the exact moment you give him freedom. Now you've got ~4 seconds of time to get away from the rogue. Alternatively, maybe its worth blowign a hammer of justice?

I'm just guessing though, don't run either lineup.

[Duljan]

Shaman sits in the middle of his totems, about 15 yards from the lock.
Rogue beats shit out of lock.
I spam heals on lock.
Shaman purges freedom, shocks heals (doesnt need to), and does minimal healing.
We lose fight with shaman at 70% mana.



I'm not really sure what to say to you here. Your gear doesn't look too terrible. Your +healing is a little low, but that's about it. But if you're being out-healed in terms of efficiency by the shaman, then you (or your partner) must be doing something terribly wrong. Sure, the rogue is using wounding poison, but your lock is dotting up both players, so it more or less evens out.

Make sure you put Blessing of Light on your lock. If he purges it, put up a fresh one. Blessing of Light has a mana cost that is less than the cost of purge, so if he's purge-happy, you're going to win the mana fight that way. Make sure you drink at every given opportunity. I'm not sure what kind of gear your partner is wearing but if his gear is lacking, then that may be your problem. My partner runs about 12k hp and 486 resi with soul link. Between all of that + syphon life x 2, fears, death coil, and drain life, I'm able to drink several times.

All you really have to do against shaman teams is outlast bloodlust. Once bloodlust is done, drink as much as you can (even if it's only for one or two ticks). You really should have no problem with this combo. Just make sure to stay at max distance from the shaman (as I said) so he's not able to keep you in combat with shocks.

My pally+lock team had problems with shaman + dps teams at the start, but once we figured out the tricks, we've had really no problem at all with them.

[Phiers]

My partner was at about 300 resil, is now just shy of 400 (since we fought that team last week. gts on upgrading from pve helm to a 2 pc gladiator bonus, and pvp neck upgrade), and has more stam. I definitely didnt have a chance to drop combat, but hopefully we'll be a bit better off now.

If we face that combo again, I'll be sure to play the BoL-purge game, I probably stopped trying after a few casts.

We also had blade's edge vs them all 3 times, which means the shaman had purging easymode. I'm guessing nagrand would be friendlier towards us, letting the lock get some 1v1 time vs the rogue behind a pillar before Purgy McSpam gets LoS.

[Grup]

How do you kite a rogue when freedom is instantly purged? Crip > exhaustion, and cleanse spamming with wound psn and crip on him is going to run me out of mana while his health is still going down.

Easily. As Grup said earlier, if he thinks he's not getting drained, he'll chase me around. As soon as he does, I pop freedom on the lock and he gets to kite a bit. Then the shaman realizes what's happening and gets off of me. By then, it's too late. The shaman is far from his totems and gets drained, I top off my lock, and then go drink.

It's a wonderful game of "Lawl @ the dumb shaman".

The problem is you're playing dumb shamans. What is the best shaman/rogue team you have faced? Pop freedom on the lock and the rogue stuns, freedom does not help at all from kidney shot and gouge, and the rogue preferably saves sprint for the lucky time the warlock does get away. A shaman isn't literally going to be chasing you around meleeing you while not paying attention to the warlock, he'll just try to stay 20 yards from you. I just don't understand your "far from totems" argument. What totem is he using that isn't incredibly cheap? With DoT nerf and BoF nerf, this becomes even increasingly hard for the pally/warlock. Creating separation with the rogue with a HoJ/fear and then draining the shaman is really the only hope unless, like your post indicates, you're playing dumb shaman.

[Duljan]

HoJ/fear and then draining the shaman is really the only hope unless


Only hope? Seriously... please tell me you're not losing to this combo....

[Grup]

HoJ/fear and then draining the shaman is really the only hope unless


Only hope? Seriously... please tell me you're not losing to this combo....

Losing to what combo? I play a 2100 rated resto shaman/rogue team. We never lose to pally/warlock. We almost always lose to other warrior and rogue teams. I think that will tell you something about how we do against warlocks. All I know is that my partner and I know how to get around the strategies you are suggesting, and the simple matter is there are not many shaman/rogue teams up high due to the sheer number of counters they have. I think my partner and I are the highest rated version of it on Shadowburn, though I'm not sure.

The only time we ever have trouble is when the paladin stuns the rogue, warlock fears him away, and they kite as much as possible until they get to me to drain mana. Even just four or five drain manas over an entire match is enough to turn the tide.

[Duljan]

The most obvious problem, Grup, is that I can drink infinitely and you can't. There's absolutely no chance we could lose to this combo.

[Grup]

The most obvious problem, Grup, is that I can drink infinitely and you can't. There's absolutely no chance we could lose to this combo.

How can you infinitely drink? Even druids have a hard time infinitely drinking, when they're faster than paladins, have HoTs, have CC, and the dreaded shadowmeld if night elf. I think I would quit WoW if I let a paladin drink in this combo. You have to stop to cast your heals, allowing the shaman to catch up to you and stay within 20 yards at all times. As powerful as SL/SL locks are, they still need heals to stay up against a geared rogue. Any shaman that just sits among his totems while a paladin drinks probably needs to learn to play honestly.

[Duljan]

The most obvious problem, Grup, is that I can drink infinitely and you can't. There's absolutely no chance we could lose to this combo.

How can you infinitely drink? Even druids have a hard time infinitely drinking, when they're faster than paladins, have HoTs, have CC, and the dreaded shadowmeld if night elf. I think I would quit WoW if I let a paladin drink in this combo. You have to stop to cast your heals, allowing the shaman to catch up to you and stay within 20 yards at all times. As powerful as SL/SL locks are, they still need heals to stay up against a geared rogue. Any shaman that just sits among his totems while a paladin drinks probably needs to learn to play honestly.

My lock has the resi to take a few hits, and knows how to drain tank. I'm also very good at keeping myself 80 yards from the shaman.

[Phiers]

My lock has the resi to take a few hits, and knows how to drain tank. I'm also very good at keeping myself 80 yards from the shaman.

So you enjoy keeping yourself 60 yards from the person you need to heal, when the rogue can just pop CDs and finish off the lock before you can get close enough to do anything. Sweet.

[Duljan]

My lock has the resi to take a few hits, and knows how to drain tank. I'm also very good at keeping myself 80 yards from the shaman.

So you enjoy keeping yourself 60 yards from the person you need to heal, when the rogue can just pop CDs and finish off the lock before you can get close enough to do anything. Sweet.

Nope. It's simple math.

Heals have a 40 yard range.

Me ----- 40 yards ------- Lock and Rogue ------ 40 yards ------Shaman

[Grup]

My lock has the resi to take a few hits, and knows how to drain tank. I'm also very good at keeping myself 80 yards from the shaman.

So you enjoy keeping yourself 60 yards from the person you need to heal, when the rogue can just pop CDs and finish off the lock before you can get close enough to do anything. Sweet.

Nope. It's simple math.

Heals have a 40 yard range.

Me ----- 40 yards ------- Lock and Rogue ------ 40 yards ------Shaman

Do you honestly think you can stay 80 yards from a shaman? I have to heal my rogue less than you have to heal your warlock (CoS every 1 minute, yay!). Go ahead and "drain" tank a good rogue that's stunlocking you and kicking. Do you keep him up with holy shock? You're going to have to stop and heal, this means the shaman catches up and stays within your range. That negates "simple math" with its common sense.

I'll be blunt here, I don't think you have ever played a great shaman/rogue team. I actually can only find two shaman/rogue teams in the US that are higher rated than mine. Neither is on your battlegroup. It is a very difficult combo to succeed with because nearly every team has an advantage over it except healer + warlock and shadow priest + warlock. But one thing is for sure, we never lose to pally/warlock, and I can guarantee I can stay on a paladin that stops to heal. The closest we have come to losing is when my rogue got feared out of my range while I got spammed with drain mana.

[Duljan]

You're going to have to stop and heal, this means the shaman catches up and stays within your range. That negates "simple math" with its common sense.




A shaman isn't literally going to be chasing you around meleeing you while not paying attention to the warlock

So which is it?


And let's be clear here. Because every realm varies in terms of scores, having a high rating does not mean you're better than everybody else in the world.

[Grup]

So which is it?


And let's be clear here. Because every realm varies in terms of scores, having a high rating does not mean you're better than everybody else in the world.

I'm not saying I'm the third best shaman/rogue in the world, I'm saying it's a difficult combo to get up high and thus there really aren't that many high rated teams for people to have faced. I've played as shaman/warrior and shaman/rogue before, a combined 1200 games probably since arena came out, and I have played against shaman/rogue maybe two or three times ever.

You must've misinterpreted what you just quoted there. I was saying I'm not going to focus on just one of you, I can chase the paladin while still paying attention to the warlock, only a bad shaman gets tunnel vision. Also, meleeing you is different from casting a rank 1 shock on you.

Shaman/rogue typically beats druid/warlock, and druid/warlock can carry out your strategy infinitely better than pally/warlock can (travel form, hots, cyclone, roots). Honestly, what types of teams do you think shaman/rogue beat to get up high? I just think it's a little delusional to think you can keep 80 yard distance from a shaman. It sounds like you play against shaman that lay a bunch of totems and sit in them.