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Kyoht
11-25-2007, 09:19 PM
This guide is written for hunters from a hunter's point of view. However, I'd like to think that it was constructed in a manner that can benefit mages and priests as well. Please keep in mind that like all guides, it is not law to follow mindlessly, but rather to guide and inform so that you can develop your own unique playstyle.
Enjoy :)
-Kyoht/Amanda

The Basics:
It is important to understand that a hunter/mage/priest team requires synergy, and a lot of it. The strats that you need to execute in order to win require well played timing and teamwork. Communication, especially between you and your mage is KEY .. There should never be a moment when your vent channel is quiet upon joining a game -- I encourage you and your partners to never shut up! You'll understand better once I go more in depth about the strats.
My partners are very good friends of mine, we understand each other's play styles and know how to support one another .. Think of your teammates as extensions of yourself, that you're just a part of one big well oiled machine. Because things WILL have to go perfect. ONE misplaced scatter shot or ONE frost nova can, and WILL, be the difference between a win and a loss.

Alright, enough of the Mr. Miyagi stuff, let's get down to business.

Obviously, spec is important. To make this work the way I'll be describing, the hunter must be marks/surv, the mage must be frost, and the priest must be holy/disc. For exact specs, feel free to Armory me and my teammates.

The beauty of this team makeup is that you are very flexible. You are first and foremost an outlasting team, but you have amazing burst when you need it. The majority of your time will be spent kiting around pillars, and utilizing all your hunter-y abilities in conjunction with your mage to protect you and your teammates. Patience is important, if you lack patience and just want to blow stuff up, than this combination is not for you.

You outlast by keeping your opponents damage output to a minimum with sheep + frost nova + traps + kiting + scatter, and mana draining via viper sting and scorpid pet. You and your mage have to protect your priest at all costs. Melee should not have a chance to touch him. Casters should not be able to get line of sight on him to cast. If the other team focuses you or your mage instead, same thing goes.


The Beginning:
A queue pops and you join. You start to get ready, and among your priest buffing and mage summoning water, you should be getting raid targets set up (Circle, thong/upside-down nacho, moon, etc). You'll need to know where your partners are at all times.
Have your mage use his Ritual of Refreshment instead of old fashioned water and bread, the mana biscuits are very convenient for arenas. If he bitches about the reagent cost, slap him for being emo, then spot him a few gold.
Edit: Another mage friend informed me that it doesn't use a reagent in arenas, so apparently I gotta lay the smack down on a certain mage in the possession of my gold ..
My Priest usually will put Fear Ward on me off the start, and then on himself for the rest of the game once the CD is back up. This ensures me being able to start my draining immediately, regardless of a fear bomb -- But then again, he's undead and has WotF, so perhaps this wouldn't be ideal for a non-UD priest.
Use Aspect of the Viper.

The arena starts, the gate opens, immediately you should be checking your track (A tracking mod such as "ICU" and an arena mod like "Proximo" or "Arena Unit Frames" will make your job a lot easier) to see what you'll be facing. Then you label your enemies:
There is the Drain Target and the CC’ed Target. They obviously cannot be one in the same because viper sting breaks sheep. There is a third target, which is sometimes the drained target as well, this is the enemy we’re constantly applying pressure to -- We do so via instant attacks while kiting.

Depending on the arena, you'll move to your kiting spot. On Nagrand, we usually use the pillar to the left upon entering. On Lorderon, its the side of the coffin closest to the green puddle of sludge-poop stuff. On Blade's Edge its on the ground level at the closest pillar to our starting room. Be patient and stick to your spot, let them come to you.


On the Art of Draining:
The first thing you do upon seeing what your opponents are is determine who you’ll be mana draining (The drain target, duh!). It’s not always the healer, as one might think. We put priority on shadow priests/mages/elemental shaman, etc before we ever drain their healers. Their DPS is the biggest threat, and mana-based DPS classes are worthless when they’re oom.
Improved Stings in the Marks tree and a Scorpid pet will make your job easier.
Set your drain target as your /focus, this makes it so you don’t have to break from your current target when using the following macro:

/cast [target=focus] Viper Sting

You can also replace “viper sting” with “silencing shot” to make silence a focus as well.
Every 15 seconds you need to be reapplying that sting, until they are oom. Be sure your scorp is always on them, and watch his health. Don’t let the pet die or the game gets drastically more difficult as your drain target will have a lot more opportunities to drink.
Also, if your priest is CONFIDENT that he'd be safe in doing so, he may help you drain by throwing a mana burn on the drain target. But he should never do so if he or his partners are in danger ..
Healing > Mana Burning. You'd be surprised at how many priests don't understand that concept.

Tip: If the other team is trying to kill your pet, instead of wasting your priest's mana trying to keep it up, dismiss it. Bring it out again later.
Tip: When draining pallys follow up your sting with a silencing shot to buy another tick or two of the drain.


The Second Step, and a note on Rogues:
When the game starts, lay a frost (slowing) trap down at your kiting spot. There should NEVER be a time when that trap isn’t down. Have your partners be aware of where its is at all times, this is extremely important.
Drop a flare if there are stealthers; make sure you and your partners camp that flare. Determine if the stealther is a druid (Check if the visible enemies have MotW), if not then attempt to hunters mark a non-stealther (To help watch their location) and turn on Track Hidden. It is extremely important that you do not let that rogue get a cheap shot off on you or your partners. Keep flare and frost trap down, have your mage rank 1 arcane explode between flares. Spam tab and scatter shot to flush it out before given a chance to get the opener on you.

Once the rogue is exposed and the battle engages, make sure you keep a flare down or that you’re fast on casting another once that rogue vanishes. Tell your partners to call out in vent the second it vanishes, because if left alone, rogues will shut down your entire operation single-handedly. Rogues lock down their target making it impossible for you or your partners to kite out of line of sight; they expose you to being burnt down. And that is why we don’t let the little buggers have an inch of freedom. When there is a rogue, they are ALWAYS the CC’ed target.


The Chase:
As stated before, it is best to be patient and let them come to you.
Pro tip: Always carry flint and tinder with you if you’re a cook to have “Happy BBQ Fun Time” around the campfire while waiting for them.
After you set your focus to your drain target, switch targets to the enemy that you and your mage are going to be keeping locked down (Your CC‘ed target). For example’s sake, let’s say a warrior. Wait for him to charge in and immediately get a scatter off on him. This is when my mage sheeps him and we begin the kiting. Again, keep that frost trap down on the pillar you’re kiting around. We kite to break line of sight and to protect ourselves. It keeps us in control of the situation.

My mage will continue to sheep him until he gets diminishing returns. The second he is not able to sheep or frost nova that target, it is my job as the hunter to wing clip and scatter him, buying time for my mage to be able to sheep once more. You can not let the CC target have any freedom so SAVE YOUR SCATTER SHOT for that target and that target alone.

Between scattering the CC‘ed target when needed, laying frost traps, keeping flare down (when needed), and draining your /focus target, you and your mage will be damaging one of the two non-CC’ed targets with instant attacks to wear them down while kiting. If there’s a lock on the team, we usually DPS him so we can keep him from tormenting our priest.

Edit: I'm going to put a bit of emphasis on the point above, as it didn't seem to be very prominent when it should be .. You MUST do medium DPS to whichever target you make your DPS target, which will in most cases be your drain target. Stay safe, and don't open yourself up to being blown up or shut down, but you need to be "applying pressure" on your DPS target; this doesn't mean go ape-shit crazy on the guy, because most likely if you do, you'll run yourself and your partners OOM too early, or you'll forget your other duties (traps, viper, keeping your teammates safe). Use your better judgement.

Tip: Don't be stupid and break sheeps with Multi-Shot.

Kyoht
11-25-2007, 09:20 PM
/Victory:
Keep it up until your drain target is oom. Start to drain whatever else uses mana, keeping your pet on the first target. It is now safe to get out in the open and start to burn the target of your choice, which is usually the poor sap who’s oom. Rapid Fire an Aimed Shot on (For that “Mortal Strike” effect) and you and your mage go in for the kill.

Don’t get so caught up in the bloodletting that you forget to keep your CC target CC’ed and your traps down as your priest will most likely still be LoS‘ing behind the pillar. You must keep the sheep controlled until the very end. Finish them off one by one, but don’t get too cocky, a lot can still go wrong. You’re only safe out in the open when their DPS’ers are neutralized via mana drain and sheep, so keep it up.


Final Notes:
What I’ve given you here is only the basic skeleton of a strategy. Obviously there are going to be instances that you won’t be able to execute the above plan of action effectively, but that’s the beauty of this team -- We can adapt at the drop of a hat. Over time, you’ll learn when to follow it to the letter, and when to improvise.

And remember, you’re nothing without your partners, if one of you messes up once, it’s usually over. Get to know them and their play style, their strengths and their weaknesses, and support them. Trust me, it’s frustrating at first, but just be patient -- It’s not an easy combo to pull off, but once you do, there’s very very little that can stop you.

Best of luck!

Kyoht
11-25-2007, 11:37 PM
<<This spot reserved for when I get around to adding more in-depth team by team strats>>

juventino_hero
11-26-2007, 12:09 AM
ill be reccomending my soon to be priest and mage partner to reading this, helped alot :)

<3

tzou88
11-26-2007, 12:13 AM
sounds pretty op'ed =(

Grimgnaw
11-26-2007, 11:06 AM
I've never actually played this combo, but I was hoping to give it a shot in season 3. I just had one question about your strategy. You highly emphasised the importance of Frost Traps. I'm curious if you ever decide to change to freezing traps? From my 2's experience I know I heavily rely on Scatter/Freeze to keep a lot of stuff (mainly warriors) off my priest and I use Wing Clip as my snare effect. I would have thought that Freeze Trap would be even more important in 3's when you'de need it when Polymorph is on diminished returns. Especially since you can freeze the main CC target, and the mage can switch to polymorphing their cleanser, effectivly turning him off for the duration of the trap.

Kyoht
11-26-2007, 12:08 PM
I've never actually played this combo, but I was hoping to give it a shot in season 3. I just had one question about your strategy. You highly emphasised the importance of Frost Traps. I'm curious if you ever decide to change to freezing traps? From my 2's experience I know I heavily rely on Scatter/Freeze to keep a lot of stuff (mainly warriors) off my priest and I use Wing Clip as my snare effect. I would have thought that Freeze Trap would be even more important in 3's when you'de need it when Polymorph is on diminished returns. Especially since you can freeze the main CC target, and the mage can switch to polymorphing their cleanser, effectivly turning him off for the duration of the trap.

Freezing traps are too easy to be countered via dispels, trinkets, accidental damage, or even the wrong target eating the trap. Once it's wasted, you have no trap until your CD is back up -- That person is free to run and catch up with his target. Frost traps on the other hand, are only countered with Blessing of Freedom which can be dispelled off by your priest or your arcane shot. Frost traps also keep all THREE of your opponents CC'ed so they can't get LoS on you easily, not just a single target. It can stay up the duration of your trap CD until you reapply another and there's never a time when your trap isn't down, maximizing efficiency. Throw entrapment into the mix, and I don't see why anyone would want to use anything but frost.

Kiting is this team's lifeblood. Without frost traps, kiting becomes virtually impossible. Wing Clipping isn't really an option as it just adds too much work to your already full list of duties. The chaos would just be too much, you'd lose control. In order to achieve the same effect, you would have to constantly be wing clipping all three targets.

You mentioned that you felt it would help when poly is on DR? If one were to follow the guide, nothing more than a scatter will be needed, trust me. You'll see what I mean when you get in there.

It may work for you in twos because there's less for you to deal with, but personally I stick to frost traps in both situations. From personal experience I've found them superior.

xforce27
12-02-2007, 12:34 AM
how do u fight double healer teams with lock, we just lost to druid priest lock, but lock got a fear on me 8+3 seconds. not UD so kinda tough

ok we devised a plan. burn priest till OOM while dpsing lock to keep him and druid busy and not let him fear freely. once priest is OOM, sheep lock, FF priest and burn druid. Finish priest, then do the same with lock and druid. Only problem is i can run oom against this team quickly.

Kyoht
12-02-2007, 01:28 AM
how do u fight double healer teams with lock, we just lost to druid priest lock, but lock got a fear on me 8+3 seconds. not UD so kinda tough

ok we devised a plan. burn priest till OOM while dpsing lock to keep him and druid busy and not let him fear freely. once priest is OOM, sheep lock, FF priest and burn druid. Finish priest, then do the same with lock and druid. Only problem is i can run oom against this team quickly.

We'd most likely sheep and keep the lock on lock-down, drain and DPS priest. LoS the lock when he's -not- sheeped/scattered/entraped (Which shouldn't be often), and keep his DPS to a minimum -- Make sure your hunter keeps frost trap down, and remember your mage and hunter need to work together to keep that guy controlled at all times.
Druid will be occupied keeping the priest alive through the DPS. Once Priest is OOM, just kill him. It's just about outlasting them. Their only real damage is that lock, who shouldn't be able to touch you anyway.
Be careful with dispelling the HoTs on the priest when burning him down, as lifebloom when dispelled will just heal him for the end amount anyway.

Opel
12-02-2007, 04:35 AM
we've found that rushing teams is also viable as opposed to waiting for them to come to you, also gives the hunter a choice on his range rather than letting them get on top of you and possibly forcing an early trinket. we also generally pressure our dps target, forcing the priest to heal with a vipersting on him. thats probably somewhat obvious, but dont make it seem like you should just viper and los because that isnt the only option.

http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=49648

that video shows more of the rush style and forcing them to play the game you want.

a huge huge huge part of this setup is your team mates learning how to kite around frost traps, it really does help.

Supahfly
12-02-2007, 09:25 AM
gawd its hard gettting to 1800 with this combo

Kyoht
12-02-2007, 07:22 PM
we also generally pressure our dps target, forcing the priest to heal with a vipersting on him. thats probably somewhat obvious, but dont make it seem like you should just viper and los because that isnt the only option.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in my post, but that's what we do as well. It's what I was going for when I said this:

Between scattering the CC‘ed target when needed, laying frost traps, keeping flare down (when needed), and draining your /focus target, you and your mage will be damaging one of the two non-CC’ed targets with instant attacks to wear them down while kiting. If there’s a lock on the team, we usually DPS him so we can keep him from tormenting our priest.

Naturally, in some cases, full LoS'ing on the part of you and your mage won't be necessary and you'll be free to do more than your instants.
At any rate, I edited the original post for clarity.

we've found that rushing teams is also viable as opposed to waiting for them to come to you, also gives the hunter a choice on his range rather than letting them get on top of you and possibly forcing an early trinket.

As far as rushing teams, that can also be done, but only on certain teams -- Against just about any caster, rogue, or shaman however, I can't say that it would be a good idea as they can either catch one of you out in the open and lock-down/blow you up as you're running to them, or you're just heading into their territory where their totems, etc are already set up, waiting for you.
Most teams (At least on my BG) won't rush to meet you.

That team that you linked a video of seems to use completely different strats, or really lack thereof .. It seems completely chaotic, relying on out DPSing them -while- they drain, with randomly placed traps. Looks very healing intensive, and I don't get a sense of any real control. Especially on the Blade's Edge maps. The closest they get to the strats my team uses is on Ruins.
That's not to say that it's not viable (obviously since they're Glads), but it's just like any other two DPS team in that sense really -- Get your enemies to zero health before you do. When my team plays like that, we tend to lose.

Usually my team will just be patient.

gawd its hard gettting to 1800 with this combo

It's a hard team to master, especially if you're not familiar with your partners' playstyles. What combinations are you having difficulty with? Maybe I can help with a couple strats.

My team has gone 26-2 so far this season, but we have experience backing us. With the two loses being simple slip-ups on the part of me or my mage, against teams we shouldn't have lost against.

m2]iceman
12-03-2007, 05:48 AM
Bah I tried this but we went like 10:7 or something :/ Make a movie plx :'(

I was surprised we beat t6 warr/ t6 pala / priest . They were doing so much nuke and mana burn and still we won 2 times . But the normal RMP just soo hard and lock/rogue/druid is kinda impossible.

Holt
12-06-2007, 04:44 AM
funnest setup ive ever played.

Steamboat
12-06-2007, 09:54 PM
yeah this setup looks very dynamic and tons of fun. You have offensive and defensive dispells, high burst potential with MS on demand, and the option of draining via viper sting and mana burn.Not to mention having awesome CC and kiting capabilities I expect to see more of it this season.

erber
12-14-2007, 10:51 PM
Started playing this combo today with two friends and went 30 and 6 to 1800...such an easy mode synergy to learn...only real combo that gave us trouble was one of our 2 non dc losses, warlock druid warrior which we ended up finding a ghetto strat for beating and its worked every time since, we drain the lock to 0 mana before he can do anything and keep applying constant pressure so he cant tap, its like a free win now because we can completely lock up the warrior with sheeps traps and MC...we basically end up killing the locks pet and then him with the druid at 50% mana(a s2 glad team too..not some nubs)....highly reccomend trying this combo out. thanks for the guide.

Speedo
12-14-2007, 11:22 PM
gawd its hard gettting to 1800 with this combo

You just need good synergy and even better strats to be successful.


great guide btw

Innate
12-24-2007, 06:31 AM
Just a note about freezing traps: I run this combo on my alt hunter, and freezing traps definately share DR with poly, so even if it would be a good idea to use them after poly (which i don't think it would), you can't, since they will be immune. I noticed this against a couple of double healer + war teams where I would try to freezing trap a war while my mage was using evo, and get a half duration (or less) trap.

Another thing to note, which I may have missed, is that you can use hunters mark to "cover" your mages sheeps. It acts like the old detect magic, and you can even refresh it if it gets cleansed instead of a sheep to cover it again.

Ijanaak
12-27-2007, 03:33 PM
Innate is trash.

Innate
12-27-2007, 08:13 PM
I love you too.

Pimpo
12-28-2007, 07:34 PM
I just changed my lock for a mage so im running now this setup and went prrety good.. did 14/3 and I had to leave for work.

Our big problem was War/druid/priest. The 3 times we lost was against this setup. We won once but its really hard.

We start draining the priest while trying to control the warrior. Its hard cause priest dispell sheep but we do our best at trap. Sometimes we dps the priest while drain and sometimes we dps the druid.. but nothing seems to work.. i dont know what to do, sometimes after the priest is OOM we sheep the druid (hard thing) and dps down the priest.
What should we do? Thx for the guide!

xforce27
01-02-2008, 06:32 AM
I was looking for this guide a while ago but couldn't find it, can we put it in the Matchup Review section?

sourpastry
01-12-2008, 02:42 PM
I ran this combo since last season, breaking 1800 has been a pain. It just doesn't seem to counter other form of mana drain teams with a druid so well. It DOES chew up PMRs rather fast.

htdg666
01-14-2008, 02:32 AM
Played this for the first time tonight, 21 games from an 1820 rated team or so to hit 2k, I gotta say it was a blast, It's SUCH an amazing hybrid, You have a ton of burst when you need it and a lot of outlast capability otherwise, It's intense gameplay though, need ALOT of communication. Chewed up mage priest rogue, Very close fights with Warlock/Rogue/Priest, Very close fights with Druid/Warrior/Rogue, Somewhat close with Double Healer / Warrior.

OP was right about team synergy, played with the hunter 2k+ in 2v2 running double DPS and priest in 3v3 so we all knew how we played, really essential to success.

Anyway, If your a mage or hunter or disc priest out there i HIGHLY suggest trying this combo out, thanks for enlightening me about the capability of this set up!

missjazz
01-18-2008, 07:29 AM
This combo is so fun to play, so much control.

We got to 2002 today, just make this team 2 days ago.

Dont really have so much problem with RMP/ WLD / 2 healers team.

I have 1 question though,

What u guys do when u run into warlock/hunter/priest.

we tend to go oom before they do >.<

regards,

-Mj-

Bunbohue
03-15-2008, 04:41 PM
Anyone still playing this? I thought I'd give it a try, seeing all the double melee teams out there this seems like a good counter, no?

juventino_hero
03-15-2008, 07:26 PM
the druid-hunter-mage version is prob better now with all the double melee comps out there.

Bunbohue
03-15-2008, 07:41 PM
I played against that combo once, it was really slow and clunky. I think they were still getting used to it, but they did eventually beat us on their very last ditch effort of mana. If I had a druid, I'd probably go HLD though, it seems a lot stronger, so I was looking for something a bit different and I had a priest that was interested =)

Treisk
03-15-2008, 08:27 PM
You just need good synergy and even better strats to be successful.


great guide btw

Pretty sure he was sarcastically saying that he shouldn't be posting guides of his 1800 team comp's strats.

Pretty sure.

cip
03-16-2008, 01:22 AM
fun combo. wish people would want to try it with me =/