I'll be mutilating...

[JayRath]

Yes, that is right come season 3 I won't be double AR hemo spamming anyone. I don't enjoy relying on my cooldowns to win, or GIB setups for that matter(Which seems like the only thing Ar/Prep is used for). So I finally came to the decision last week that I will be playing mutilate. I did all the math for when I have completed my season 3 set and it will look something like this:

Attack Power: 1455
Hit Rating: 78
Crit Chance: 35.62%
Resilience: 411
Health:11010
Armor: 4008
Dodge: 22.73%
Snare Resist: 10%(Not counting FleetFooted)

Also - 15% movement speed/10% Snare resist(FF), 20% additional healing(QR), Double mongoose, and the 1750hp/15sec pvp trinket.

So just on the basis of pure stats and the utility of QR/FF you can't really say that mutilate is an inferior spec to anything when your sitting on that. Which isn't taking into consideration your damage/CPgeneration/poisonconsistency from mutilate.

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On another note I have decided to not play with the generic 41/20 Mut/Combat spec. I have decided to go with other specs that appeal to me more than combat. Unfortunately I haven't decided on with spec I am going to go with. Just to anyone who reads this who may be interested in the other specs I am going with here they are:

41/13/7 - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ebREMoikVohbxzbZVM
[My points in assassination are pretty basic, but I have added in riposte instead of the extra hit which isn't really necessary & Replaced DWspec w/ Opportunity (to gain dirty tricks). I know DW spec is does put out more damage, but I really enjoy Dirty tricks.. 20yrd blind for 15energy is nice (oh yeah imp sap is nice to). I think weapon chains won't be nearly as common among rogues/warriors in S3 so I think this will give alot of CC/Survivability.

51/3/7 - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0REgsidVohZVM
This time I am going with a heavy poison generation build, also picking up imp ks/imp evis to help with those times you end up short on a burst attempt(I have seen more 5% felpuppys than you have seen undead rogues). I think the poison generation in this build is going to make keeping poisons up a complete joke (If you are throwing in 1/2pt SnDs here and there poisons are going to be going crazy. I think this build is probally my favourite choice, but I will probably end up going with my 41/13/7 just because of the setups I will be playing for S3.

-Jay

[Atare]

Either go 20 combat or 20 subtlety, your builds lack both damage and utility. If you want to even stand a chance in smaller brackets, I suggest you pick up 5/5 mod and 90sec blinds. The best option is of course ditching mutilate until they buff it to be on the same lvl than 21p subltety talent... so probably until season 4 or next expansion.

[JayRath]

If you would be kind enough to show me what damage/utility I am lacking.

[Atare]

It's obvious, isn't it?

1st build: Man, what can I tell you. Putting 2 points into dirty tricks & having 0/0 mod is not a smart move. Riposte alone is not worth losing 5% hit and oh spec, opportunity doesn't close the gap. Warriors don't need weapon chains, as for rogues.. believe me, they will pick up chains for oh in s3, sooner or later..

2nd build: Opp vs dw spec + precision; no imp sprint nets you 2 snare breakers (1 of which you need to save on cc), longer cd on blind and vanish (in comparison to the build with 20p in subt). You have no mobility whatsoever with this build, moreover you lack the sustained damage for which mutilate is even considered useful.

[Bobblehead]

atare you miss the point of what that heavy assasination build is, and thats the heavy focus on poison. the less dps it has from the combat build isnt too important when even against druids you're keeping 5 wound and crippling up full time.

[Atare]

So what? You can spec 41/20 and have 5/5 vile 3/5 imp poisons. I was replying to the OP post, his statements that additional hit is not important, that rogues/warriors won't use weapon chains, putting points in subtlety only for dirty tricks even though precision+dw spec will benefit him a lot more- it's all wrong even on paper.

Either you go 20 subtlety, get serrated and elusiveness on top of 5/5 mod so you can compete with all hemo maniacs, or you get used to the idea that you will always lose the opener, but in return you get precision + dw spec & improved sprint. The choice is clear, and please don't tell me that additional hit is not important- in case you didn't notice, you need 10% hit to not miss on mages and 7% on ar/prep rogues. Kidney shot suffers from dodge/parry/resist, even season 2 toe to toe with other melee was extremely hard with 41/20. I wish a lot of luck to anyone trying to add 3-4% miss on their specials and losing a lot of sustained dmg for subpar improvements elsewhere.

All of this is of course irrelevant, because if you truly want to be on top next season, you will not spec mutilate. And that's that.

[JayRath]

It's obvious, isn't it?

1st build: Man, what can I tell you. Putting 2 points into dirty tricks & having 0/0 mod is not a smart move. Riposte alone is not worth losing 5% hit and oh spec, opportunity doesn't close the gap. Warriors don't need weapon chains, as for rogues.. believe me, they will pick up chains for oh in s3, sooner or later..

2nd build: Opp vs dw spec + precision; no imp sprint nets you 2 snare breakers (1 of which you need to save on cc), longer cd on blind and vanish (in comparison to the build with 20p in subt). You have no mobility whatsoever with this build, moreover you lack the sustained damage for which mutilate is even considered useful.

1st: Dirty Tricks > 1 level in stealth(Not going to matter against 5/5 MoD with 1/2 HS when I have paranoia anyways). I am already hit cap'd from gear, spending 5 talent points to make sure you hit against frost mages = waste. They waste a mongoose and still get half the riposte.

2nd: Two talent points for a snare break on my 5 minute CD sprint is useful but not needed. I am gaining a lot more useful assassination talents in the trade off of gaining 90 seconds off blind/vanish. How can I possibly have no mobility whatsoever with 7% speed on anyone with boars speed & 20% snare resist.. lol? I lose some white damage on my off-hand which eventually does do more damage than 20% mutilate/garrote damage, but it isn't a massive gap. I don't ever recall mutilate being a build that was envied for it's sustained damage, I am pretty sure it's useful for its massive CP generation/poisons/QR.

- Since when did you need 7%hit to hit AR/Prep rogues? I think you might be reading some tooltip wrong or ...

[Chisea]

I'm experimenting with a similar spec, 53/0/8. And I don't find it as bad as you state it will be. Sure I'm no top rogue seeing as the highest I've been is 2.1k or so in 2v2 and 3v3 and 2k in 5v5. Xoms had success with the spec at least, so it's at least possible. Sure it's harder, but I find mutilate, and this weird build even more, fit my playstyle. I'd rather enjoy myself playing than speccing ar/prep or combat which I find really boring. And I got perception, so that helps a bit against other sub rogues. All in all, I find the spec enjoyable and pretty decent. But just my opinion of course.

[JayRath]

I have paranoia aswell, also I have thought about dropping points in imp KS/Evis to pick up MoD, haven't really decided what spec ;(

[Atare]

19% snare resist is useful to the point where you can rely on it only coupled with master poisoner against other rogues. 7% more movement will be nice, I agree, but it won't change the fact that you will only have vanish as your 100% snare breaker (once every 5mins too). Many teams will notice and exploit this weakness.

As for master of deception, I was talking about it only in context of a build which has it maxed out. Of course there is no point to go 7 points in subtlety and put 2/5 mod instead of dirty tricks.

[Chisea]

I have paranoia aswell, also I have thought about dropping points in imp KS/Evis to pick up MoD, haven't really decided what spec ;(

Don't drop imp ks at least. It's sexy.

[JayRath]

I know imp KS is nice but, none of my teams are trying to burst anyone down we are an outlast team. So imp KS is nice but Camo/MoD may be more beneficial.