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Agnos
08-10-2007, 03:29 PM
We've been running a traditional Priest/Paladin/Warrior/Mage +1 (elemental shaman, warlock, or rogue) lineup for a while, with marginal success, floating around 2050-2100. Recently however, we wanted to try something fun, and ran a 4dps group consisting of :

Rogue/Frost Mage x 2/ Destruction Warlock/ Resto Druid

and have been doing quite well, actually. Our rating has fluctuated in the same range, mainly because we've been running our normal lineup, but the games we play gib we have very few problems with A) other gib groups and B) lineups that run double warrior, as instead of how a normal gib group would work, we have 0 dot damage and can thus change targets immediately at any time. Since it's all frontload, we usually can kill a warrior that runs up without letting him intervene back (we have CS to KS to Shadowfury, with 4 Frost nova's and the unlikely but possible Felhunter Devour for BoF if it gets that far), and the great thing about it is he usually dies all at once, with 3 spells and a few mutilates on him.

As far as initial burst and survivability goes, my warlock wears 467 resilience with 12300 hp unbuffed in 5v5, as destruction (0/16/45 for extra stamina and Aegis), and with a restoration druid I'm one hell of a beast to take down, who happens to be spamming backlash procs if you try - and it has been very rare for a team to try focusing someone else, between ice block and druid kiting with 4 dps free. We also don't have a huge problem with setting up burst, as none of us are relying on anything beyond 15-30 second cooldowns, not to mention that we have so much output we probably don't need it all.

The one team that gave us problems was I believe a hunter/warlock team, who did a good job of keeping our rogue and our warlock from participating for the first 20 seconds of the fight, and then bursting me (our warlock) through heals with MS up. Their hunter was controlling our rogue, their warlock was controlling our druid, and any attempts I made at fearing the latter came down to me not being able to kite a warrior with freedom, and a frost trap underneath me. Needless to say that was the fight we've been working on trying to beat,

But I'd be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts about the team in general, or any questions about anything I've mentioned.

Tyveris
08-10-2007, 08:12 PM
Sounds like an interesting team, a couple of questions as we run a similar lineup. 3 caster dps, rogue, 1 healer. (Pally, Frost Mage, Spriest, UA lock, rogue).

1) How does your druid manage to keep the group healed without being focused? I would think once teams realized it was your only healer they would switch to him almost immediately.
2) Without a pally, do you feel like the lack of BoP and BoF hurts you for Frost/CoEx kiting? We have found that helpful in keeping our priest/lock alive.
3) Why Destruction? If they are constantly focusing you, do you have time to get casts off? If not would the SL/SL warlock spec suit you better? Better tanking plus you can DoT while focused? Does backlash proc enough that you are constantly pumping out good dps?

So that was more than a couple of questions, but I'm very curious. Thanks =)

Agnos
08-11-2007, 05:57 PM
1) Usually our druid just stays back, if their dps wants to walk past 4 dps casters to get on our druid, they're usually going to die by the time they can get out a good burst, although then again we haven't run the lineup enough to see if there's enough room for CC's dropping on our dps to keep their team alive long enough to kill our druid. Usually they have to get on me.

2) The lack of BoF really hurts us, yes. That and not having a dispeller for the opposing team's BoF means a warrior can stick on me the whole fight.

3) I'm mainly casting Fears and instants, I'm not really chaining damage spells - 2 mages and a rogue can do enough damage by themselves, so long as I throw up CoE on our target and CoT on their healers. I obviously focus over and do dps when someone gets low, and with my spec I can churn out a ton of burst very quickly when that situation occurs, with UA I would have to preempt it. I like the ability our team has to be able to switch targets immediately without fear of prayer of mending, and it gives us the option to sheep our previous target if we have to (a warrior beating on me, for example) without dots breaking it - he'll have to wait for a dispel, which usually means 1.5sec wasted not healing while another target is getting focused.

And yes, Backlash is up every 8 seconds, almost gauranteed.

Realz
08-12-2007, 03:27 AM
Backlash is lol and a half, amazing talent. Can you confirm for me if it is subject to a flat 8second CD - or if it's a separate 8sec CD for each person attacking you? (for example - a friend of mine claimed if a hunter was attacking him, both the hunter and the hunter pet were able to proc backlash for him on their own 8sec timers).

Kcolraw
08-12-2007, 03:36 AM
why 2 frost mages? 1 elemental shaman would not only solve your "no offensive dispeller" problem, bloodlust is haxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Harmann
08-13-2007, 05:40 AM
It's not easy keeping up a heavily burned target with few escape/mitigation options as a Druid. If that Shaman was FFed... he'd probably drop. I think the idea is to combine several very independent, self sustaining classes with heavy CC into one team. Shaman is lots of damage and Bloodlust is cool -- that's about all they've got though. I guess a /focus Earth Shock macro would make CCing healers potentially easier and would be nice against Priests who have two pretty strong magic schools to cast. CS their Holy tree and then Shock the Mana Burns.

I still think 2x Frost Mages or 2x Warlocks is better than adding a Shaman though.

Kcolraw
08-13-2007, 06:41 AM
I think the idea is to combine several very independent, self sustaining classes with heavy CC into one team.
speaking of very independent, self sustaining classes with heavy cc, i've been dying to try out a 5dps setup

Zexyl
08-15-2007, 05:23 AM
I don't think there is anything wrong with trying "unorthodox" 4 dps teams, i mean if you have 4 good dpsers, you're gunna get far just by zerging someone everytime.

You guys remember the San Diego Season 1 regionals tournament? PvE Clickers destroyed some high profile teams using their "unorthodox" 2x Mage, Rogue, Elemental Shaman, Holy Priest setup. I'm kind of sad they switch to 2345 =(.

Aoyama
08-17-2007, 05:22 AM
rogue, check
druid, check
3 caster dps, check
you're fine
destro warlock is meh but see how it works before you make him respec aff, running an ele sham over a frost mage also helps

blackfoot
08-17-2007, 07:59 PM
Without dots this 4 gib team would lose to a highly aggressive 2345 team who went first for the lock and hurt/immobilize him(hamstring). If the 4gib went for the warrior he could spell reflect and fear and run out of los, without dots to help during the dps getting cc'ed, they wouldn't be able to burst down a ready warrior. After the rogue pops the warrior should switch to the rogue because a rogue without bof is lol, he would become a burden to his team.

The lock or rogue being immobilized would mitigate thier dps because they could kite/los you and then if thier sham is watching the destro lock he can drop tremor immediately to not let fear work. The 2 mages would hurt but a pally+priest+1/2 healern should enough to withstand the burst, if they ar e using good positioning, there is no way 2 mages can get enough frostbolts in to kill someone.

Kcolraw
08-17-2007, 09:35 PM
hmm, know what i just realised, this team is the scissors to the rogue + spriest + aff lock + aff lock + druid paper

rogue has clos, mages have iceblocks, lock has nether protection... yeah

haha

Amenti
08-17-2007, 11:41 PM
hmm, know what i just realised, this team is the scissors to the rogue + spriest + aff lock + aff lock + druid paper

rogue has clos, mages have iceblocks, lock has nether protection... yeah

haha

Uggg I would probably cry if I came up against that team with mine...(2x lock and SP)