View Full Version : Druid/Warrior vs Pally/Warlock
Desmond
11-18-2007, 06:51 AM
Preface:
I play with a warrior who is a long time friend of mine and can single handedly solo most classes that aren't frost mages. However, between his 100-200ms ping and constant use of his GCD, when the warlock mana drains me, he always gets 1-2 ticks off. Against most teams I can handle this, except in this situation:
We played this pally/warlock on nagrand arena. We stopped queueing after this game because of how bad we lost. It felt like we were never in the game.
First the warrior went onto the warlock. The warlock sent his pet on me, the pally healed. I called out to kill the pet when it was 50%ish, cycloned the pally, felhunter down. The lock then instasummoned his VW. This is where the fight went south.
For the rest of the fight, the lock kept all his dots on my warrior while constantly trying to get into LoS of me. At the same time, his pally would always pincer me around whatever pillar the lock would go around. He never let the VW get below 70%, the lock never got below 50%, and the pally never dropped below 90% mana.
Every attempt of mine to root the pet and get a drink off was met with a holy shock to the face or the warlock meeting me the other way around the pillar. Every attempt to decurse the CoX on the warrior was met with a mana drain. Every attempt to work over the pally was met with Cox-Freedom kiting and mana drains.
The paladin was using the mace from Illidan, so they were definitely geared well. I just don't know what we can do to get more pressure onto that team than they can put onto us. I feel pinned and I can't come up with a way to win without resorting to SR gear. Any advice would be appreciated.
the worst part is when your warrior finally kills the voidwalker and then the warlock gets BoP'd and you get hammered... then the warlock gets to free summon another voidwalker... GG
EDIT: its a hard team to fight if they play well.. not sure what else to say.. my warrior sometimes just focuses the voidwalker until the VW while i kite and drink... stay away from the pally as much as possible... Justice = no drinking if u can't get away
oh and your HoTs shbould be able to keep up your warrior long enough for you to drink a little...
and make your warrior go defensive if you need to drink... LOL
EDIT #2: my 2s isn't updated... im 2100 with a warrior :-P
Desmond
11-18-2007, 08:20 AM
The problem wasn't that my warrior was getting hurt too much, it was that their team would leave him CoX'd on the other side of the pillar any time I tried to drink and pincer me before I could get out of combat. Over the course of a 10+ minute game, I got exactly 1 tick of drink and 2 innervates off.
Are you suggesting that my warrior should focus on the VW even when it's above 70%?
my warrior does sometimes... mostly when im running to the other side of the map i make sure to pass by my warrior so he can hamstring the pet... if the warlock gets freedom and comes after me his only target is the VW so he normally can kill it since the pally and warlock are coming after me.
Snuffy
11-18-2007, 08:56 AM
i've never had a problem with pally/warlock teams albeit one team that used t6 gear
keep everything hamstrung, get to work on the felhunter and force a fel dom. once fel dom is used if it's a felhunter kill it again, should be easy, if it's a VW get your warrior to stack sunders on the warlock and stay on him. pummel mana drains (you say your warrior has 100-200 ping, i play with 500 and warlock always gets 1/2 ticks off) and stay on him. coordinate cyclones on the pet when your warrior's MS/WW is up and he has plenty of rage. cyclone the pet, it removes SL, then your warrior's MS/WW/queued heroic strike should do plenty of damage with sunders stacked on him. Also do this if the pally is drinking to force him out of a drink. Once the pet is down to about 60% (they're bound to trip up at your bracket) call a switch when your warrior has full rage, control the pally kill the pet. If he attempts a bop summon while you're stunned your warrior should be smart enough to fear. Should be easy from there.
Basically if he summons a voidwalker you should be able to drink fine.
the worst part is when your warrior finally kills the voidwalker and then the warlock gets BoP'd and you get hammered... then the warlock gets to free summon another voidwalker... GG
EDIT: its a hard team to fight if they play well.. not sure what else to say.. my warrior sometimes just focuses the voidwalker until the VW while i kite and drink... stay away from the pally as much as possible... Justice = no drinking if u can't get away
oh and your HoTs shbould be able to keep up your warrior long enough for you to drink a little...
and make your warrior go defensive if you need to drink... LOL
EDIT #2: my 2s isn't updated... im 2100 with a warrior :-P
l2 cyclone him when he gets bopped = no free summon
buena
11-20-2007, 12:56 PM
l2 cyclone him when he gets bopped = no free summon
l2 pally warlock.
BoP is 10 seconds and it only takes 6 to summon. The extra 4 are for fearing the druid. If he's too far away to fear then hoj and distance do the trick.
Taffy
11-20-2007, 03:55 PM
oh and for a real response, i'm just starting to just burn all my mana during these games to try and down pets, since in the end i'm going to be at 0 and the lock + healer are both going to be at full health and mana, so wtf difference does it make?
blow mana stacking full hots on you and warrior, warrior beating on lock, you dragging VW away from pallie. if you're forced into bear to break a drain, spam lacerate the pet. i try to be mindful of omen procs for free regrowths.
otherwise if you've got good LOS, you can just moonfire the damn vw, then barkskin and wrath spam it. you should be able to take it down pretty fast with the warrior beating on the lock... then when the warrior is at 50% or so he intervenes back to you (or runs) and gets back on the pet.
of course now you and your war need heals, you're vuln to the lock cuz nobody is on him, and you have to break any resummon attempt. oh and you're going through mana like its 1999.
so in the end i've really only ever beat bad warlocks... good thing the bad ones still make it to 2300 rating!
Taffie
11-20-2007, 04:10 PM
At 2200 we actually managed to beat the 2ed best group in our BG (warlock/pally).
What we did was:
- Save pummels for mana drain
- Don't get in mana drain los if you can help it
- You need to drink to win
- Kill the pet. Cyclone Paladin and then unload.
- If they're on one side of the map, cheetah and run to the other. Have your warrior follow (we were in lorderwhatever) then charge the pet (or the others) if they get too close
- Save your trinket for final burst
- Go all out on the lock
- Full out CC the Paladin, kicks on fears on Druid, when the lock is reaching 10% run to your warrior. Have your Warrior fear the lock, which will in turn fear the VW that is following you. Keep CCs on Paladin.
If all goes well.. You win. (Or, atleast, this is the strat we used that seemed to work well) What actually happened that match was the Warlock's DPS was so strong that the dots actually killed my warrior. So the Holy Paladin and myself played the lol-lets-wait game for 4 and a half hours. 32 points~
I may be doing this wrong.. If any of you guys have a better strat, please let me know, because this is a pretty tough match for us. <3
Lets not forget that warlock's self-healing was nerfed in that matchup. Gone are the days where the warlock would outheal the pally. I have not actually 2v2ed since the patch since my partner quit (QQ), but in the past what made this matchup hard is that even with the felhunter dead it would take ten million billion years to kill the warlock, especially if the pally was sporting T6. So I can only imagine this matchup being easy now once the felhunter is dead.
l2 pally warlock.
BoP is 10 seconds and it only takes 6 to summon. The extra 4 are for fearing the druid. If he's too far away to fear then hoj and distance do the trick.
so what? even if bop was 30 seconds you can still cyclone him when he's bopped :S? don't rly get your point
so what? even if bop was 30 seconds you can still cyclone him when he's bopped :S? don't rly get your point
I think his point was that the pally can BoP the lock and the lock can fear the druid and then resummon his pet before the BoP wears off.
Gragnarth
11-21-2007, 06:42 AM
if you really need to drink, have your warrior challenging shout the voidwalker and intercept to the paladin, have him hamstring the VW and paladin and then get back to the warlock. Also works with mocking blow, your mileage may vary.
smart teams are going to do everything in their power to stop you from drinking, thus you need to do everything in your power to prevent them from stopping you. Get used to coordinating your drink times with your warrior. Tell him you need to try and drink, and he should focus on Hamstringing everything in sight. Time your drinks at a time when Freedom is down, as soon as it fades, have your warrior hamstring everything. Even with JoJ you should be able to get away and get at least 1-2 drink ticks off at a time. Remember that Nature's Grasp is free and is effective to lock down a VW when the warlock summons one... just make sure its out of LoS so the pally doesn't immediately dispell it... if you're really having problems, draw the paladin to one end of the arena, cyclone him, NG the pet and bolt to the other side... this buys you time to get away from the paladin, and with a 6 second cyclone, it should theoretically give you 2 full drink ticks before the paladin even has a chance to be in LoS of you. With Hamstring your drink ticks should be greater, and coupled with shadowmeld you can buy 1 or 2 more ticks...
Use everything in your arsenal, you MUST drink to beat this team unless someone fucks up and lets your warrior kill someone early... Also, don't hesitate to sit down and drink at 80% mana if the warlock doesn't have a pet on you and nobody is in health trouble. That 20% when you can get it makes a world of difference...
With a Voidwalker out you should be able to drink, plain and simple... its not always easy, and you are rarely going to eb able to drink from 0% to 100%, but you have to take what you can get when you can get it.
I think his point was that the pally can BoP the lock and the lock can fear the druid and then resummon his pet before the BoP wears off.
exactly
Ridzik
11-23-2007, 08:09 PM
What actually happened that match was the Warlock's DPS was so strong that the dots actually killed my warrior. So the Holy Paladin and myself played the lol-lets-wait game for 4 and a half hours. 32 points~
screenshot or it didn't happen. besides 32 points is impossible. 29 is max afaik.
Insight
11-23-2007, 09:27 PM
screenshot or it didn't happen. besides 32 points is impossible. 29 is max afaik.
It's 0-30 ;p
barroom
11-26-2007, 02:29 PM
"If they're on one side of the map, cheetah and run to the other. Have your warrior follow (we were in lorderwhatever) then charge the pet (or the others) if they get too close"
In that particular arena, it's so easy to get rid of lok pets. I've done it in all my fights verse loks.
Drudkh
11-29-2007, 12:50 PM
Preface:
I play with a warrior who is a long time friend of mine and can single handedly solo most classes that aren't frost mages. However, between his 100-200ms ping and constant use of his GCD, when the warlock mana drains me, he always gets 1-2 ticks off. Against most teams I can handle this, except in this situation:
We played this pally/warlock on nagrand arena. We stopped queueing after this game because of how bad we lost. It felt like we were never in the game.
First the warrior went onto the warlock. The warlock sent his pet on me, the pally healed. I called out to kill the pet when it was 50%ish, cycloned the pally, felhunter down. The lock then instasummoned his VW. This is where the fight went south.
For the rest of the fight, the lock kept all his dots on my warrior while constantly trying to get into LoS of me. At the same time, his pally would always pincer me around whatever pillar the lock would go around. He never let the VW get below 70%, the lock never got below 50%, and the pally never dropped below 90% mana.
Every attempt of mine to root the pet and get a drink off was met with a holy shock to the face or the warlock meeting me the other way around the pillar. Every attempt to decurse the CoX on the warrior was met with a mana drain. Every attempt to work over the pally was met with Cox-Freedom kiting and mana drains.
The paladin was using the mace from Illidan, so they were definitely geared well. I just don't know what we can do to get more pressure onto that team than they can put onto us. I feel pinned and I can't come up with a way to win without resorting to SR gear. Any advice would be appreciated.
Outlasting a well PvE geared team like that would be difficult, especially since you mentioned they were really good players. I would still put this matchup in your favor though. A warlock with a warrior on him can't drain your mana very efficiently, so you have a lot of time to try to burst the warlock. Feral charging/Cyclone/Pummel anything the paladin when the warlock gets to 50% and that will probably force the pally to use either BoP or bubble. If you can find a time when those are both down, you will have a dead warlock. If you ever want to reset the fight you can probably have your warrior hamstring the voidwalker and the pally and you can go free to drink. I haven't had too much experience playing warrior/druid admittedly, but I think your best bet is to try to interrupt the pally's heals rather than run him out of mana.
Taffy
11-29-2007, 04:47 PM
It's 0-30 ;p
it's 0-32. noobs.
Albinus
11-29-2007, 05:02 PM
I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest, but I was also under the impression it was a 30 point give/take. I've never seen a >29 point win or loss.
p_mxv
11-29-2007, 05:05 PM
On another note...
"100-200ms ping", this is BAD??
If I get < 400ms I am cheering. (Northern Canada FTL)
Xaint
11-29-2007, 05:12 PM
it's 0-32. noobs.
0-30.
Desmond
11-29-2007, 05:39 PM
Thanks for all the input. We've beaten a few Warlock Pally teams since and the advice has helped a lot.
As for the ping, currently I have 29ms ping, and I consider >100 almost unplayable in pvp because of pummel effects and mace stuns from across the map -_- (seriously.....rocket boot away from a warrior only to get mace stunned on the other side of the map.....pretty retarded what a high latency can do).
Albinus
11-29-2007, 06:02 PM
As for the ping, currently I have 29ms ping, and I consider >100 almost unplayable in pvp
die
All I had to do was read the first post and see the battlegroup to know this post was talking about Invid/fatstuff. I've played them on my war/druid team (2330 s2) about 20 times and we went 0-20 - and none of those games were even close. Invid's the scariest warlock I've ever played by far and orc hardiness makes it even worse, he kites and drains relentlessly and his paladin wears pve gear (2k+ healing) but is still tough to kill. Both are horrible targets for me (warrior) cuz I do so little dmg. When I see them against us in arena I lose all hope and cry irl.
32 point win (http://black.clarku.edu/~soly/pics/wow/WoW 2007-06-08 01-47-35-07.jpg)
Taffy
11-29-2007, 08:39 PM
All I had to do was read the first post and see the battlegroup to know this post was talking about Invid/fatstuff. I've played them on my war/druid team (2330 s2) about 20 times and we went 0-20 - and none of those games were even close. Invid's the scariest warlock I've ever played by far and orc hardiness makes it even worse, he kites and drains relentlessly and his paladin wears pve gear (2k+ healing) but is still tough to kill. Both are horrible targets for me (warrior) cuz I do so little dmg. When I see them against us in arena I lose all hope and cry irl.
32 point win (http://black.clarku.edu/~soly/pics/wow/WoW 2007-06-08 01-47-35-07.jpg)
its just the undisputable proof (as if we needed any) about the fuckedness of lock balance. other locks up there just suck so it feels sorta balanced... they just happen to be at lower skill level.
vs a good lock + pallie or druid you have a loss. period. basically no amount of them fucking up (without just not knowing what they are doing) can turn the game around. if you kill a pet, freedom + coex + dot spam until meta gem proc = new pet (or roots + cyclone + summon)
you don't burst down a SL'd lock with any class. sorry. no amount of cc on the pallie will do it... and this is assuming you wouldn't get feared in the middle of your lock down routine? yeah right.
its just the undisputable proof (as if we needed any) about the fuckedness of lock balance. other locks up there just suck so it feels sorta balanced... they just happen to be at lower skill level.
vs a good lock + pallie or druid you have a loss. period. basically no amount of them fucking up (without just not knowing what they are doing) can turn the game around. if you kill a pet, freedom + coex + dot spam until meta gem proc = new pet (or roots + cyclone + summon)
you don't burst down a SL'd lock with any class. sorry. no amount of cc on the pallie will do it... and this is assuming you wouldn't get feared in the middle of your lock down routine? yeah right.
100% agree, especially 2nd paragraph. People think interrupting a 6 sec cast is so easy but it's not at all if the lock's team is paying attention - all they have to do is notice when the pet is getting low, have the lock go behind a pillar and summon a new one while I'm finishing off the old pet - BAM, brand new pet. wtf am I supposed to do, run them out of shards!? Hell, just like you said, a druid on a druid/lock team can CC BOTH a war/druid at the same time for his lock to get another pet.
Invid's simply a monster and I literally have no idea how I'll be able to beat him. He positions perfectly (in warrior vs warlock, the warlock gets to pick where to fight; if I'm on him and he can't reach my druid, he'll run in the opposite direction out of los and force my druid to come out - it's not like I can't follow him, his dots are ticking on me and I won't be doing any dps...) and never misses a drain. It's also surprising how many locks don't coex the warrior when they get bof but invid never forgets -_-
Tribby
11-29-2007, 09:58 PM
I know it's the grey area, but using SR against drain locks (on your warrior) works wonders.
I know it's the grey area, but using SR against drain locks (on your warrior) works wonders.
Yeah it makes a huge diff, but I don't have any SR at all, I only PvP T_T
Ensipid
11-30-2007, 01:57 AM
sunders on warlock , always hamstring the vw any chance you get so you can drink. Cycloning pet when able to drop soul link;all this will help bring the mana battle into your favor since the pally will need to do a lot more healing... wear shadow resist if you want... it makes it a free win but no one will respect you for it.
Taffy
11-30-2007, 06:49 PM
wear shadow resist if you want... it makes it a free win but no one will respect you for it.
whereas 2v with lock healer is totally respectable am i rite?
Ensipid
11-30-2007, 10:08 PM
whereas 2v with lock healer is totally respectable am i rite?
nothings wrong with playing your class, anyways i gave some tips on how to dps a sl lock in 2's you can chose to read em or not :x no need to be emo <3
Tribby
12-01-2007, 03:56 AM
Shadow resist is not a free win and if the other team plays properly they can negate it entirely.
Shadow resist is not a free win and if the other team plays properly they can negate it entirely.
Depends on how much SR the opponent is wearing.
Warguyver
12-01-2007, 08:05 PM
Never really had a problem vs warlock pally as warrior druid.
Once the VW comes out, we've already won. Just have the druid cyclone the voidwalker whenever he can while the warrior sunder stacks the warlock. When the voidwalker is cycloned, the warlock loses his soul-link. During this period, the warlock has 0 physical mitigation and takes a butt load from the warrior's pounding. This forces the pally to heal the warlock hard and at the same time, gives you time to drink.
Also, keep moving the voidwalker out of LoS from the pally. Eventually the warlock will have to put it on passive for the pally to land some heals on it; use this opportunity to drink.
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