Pve gear has become too strong in arena...

[Resc]

...in many cases. Recently I did some 2on2 with my pally mate and we faced a resto druid/sl lock combo.
Usually we have some chances against these teams if we can put a lot of pressure on the druid to get him down early. But what happened in this game was that I as soon as I got on the druid the druid would do nothing to escape or to cc. He was just standing there in casterform outhealing me with hots and swiftmend with ms on him.
The lowest hp percentage I could get him to was ~70%, altough i had some fair amounts of crits (only 1,5k white hits, however). When I looked up this guy in armory I saw that he had access to alle gear of BT/Hyjal.
Needless to say what the warlock who was on the same equip level as the druid did to the paladin....

[buena]

This specific complaint is pretty ignorant because it claims a PvE-geared player was too survivable. PvP gear gives far more survivability than any PvE gear currently in the game. More armor, more stamina, and more resilience (which PvE gear has zero of). Most likely you were hitting a player in full PvP gear, and then looked in armory and saw his raid set.

Also, I feel complaints about PvE gear overall are basically ill-informed. Yes, there a few pieces here and there which are superior in certain arena situations. But WoW has come a long way from level 60 where raid-geared players dominated in battlegrounds. Considering how easy they are to get and how many people have them, the PvP items are arguably very overpowered compared to much-more-difficult-to-obtain raid gear. An average raid guild is in SSC and TK at this time, and a fully PvP-geared player with equivalent skill could do quite well in their raids there. A SSC-and-TK-geared player could NOT jump into arena and do well.

I think this disparity reflects Blizzard's strategy to make end game more focused on PvP, which I certainly approve. Raid games grow repetitive and outdated and don't attract new players, but if you have the best PvP gameplay around and reasonable, constantly changing balance, people will play your game for years. Witness WC3 and even starcraft still being played, which also proves that Blizzard has a strong past with creating balance and good gameplay. Nitpicking about the few PvP advantages raiders still have left is just small-minded in a game that is clearly aiming to head for a 10-year or more lifespan as a PvP haven.

That said, there is one raid item which really bothers me. Void Star Talisman. Even if you can justify that being in the game, why is it on a TK boss instead of a PvP vendor? Warlocks who don't raid are at a large arena disadvantage against those who do, because of this item.

[Tribby]

I'm 99% sure the druid he is talking about must have just stacked a trinket lifebloom and sat there outhealing the OP's dmg. The OP is in 320 resilience, a number too high for a 2v2 warrior/healer warrior.

I suggest hojing or intercepting the druid at a time where he loses his trinket stack and he will be unable to keep up. I can certainly see a druid rage starving a warrior just through tanking and self healing, it's very possible especially for a warrior who is probably not hitting that hard.

[Resc]

This specific complaint is pretty ignorant because it claims a PvE-geared player was too survivable. PvP gear gives far more survivability than any PvE gear currently in the game. More armor, more stamina, and more resilience (which PvE gear has zero of). Most likely you were hitting a player in full PvP gear, and then looked in armory and saw his raid set.



I am asking myself right now who is being more ignorant?
I fought many S2 geared druids, and none of them was able to heal against Mortal Strike with hots/swiftmend in caster form. I know how the druid t6 looks like and i could say that he at least was wearing chest/helmet/shoulders.
T6 hasn't lower armor values than S2 so no disadvantage here. And in this case the lack of resilience/hp was not only compensated by the healing/manareg/t6 set bonuses of the druids pve gear, the pve gear outclassed the utility of S2 gear in arena.
And this is my point. It should not be like that.

Edit:

@Tribby
Not every Warrior plays with druid who can use heavy cc to reduce the damage on the warrior. If i play against 2dd teams or rogues i am glad to have some resilience. But anyway, you checked my gear, you see I am wearing mostly PvP gear (it's supposed to be used for pvp I heard) with dmg gems/enchants not resilience gems. So I would really appreciate it if you could tell how to get more dmg potential out of my gear except from going to Bt/Hyjal

[buena]

Even if it was true that you can't possibly win against someone with full tier 6, there's still an argument here. Full PvP gear can be gotten with an hour per week on an average team, and some afking in AV (not saying you afked yours, but you could have and many did). Full tier 6 takes hundreds or thousands of hours of commitment to a quality of raid guild that many servers do not even have. Shouldn't a player who puts in that effort deserve an advantage?

But let's not even go there, because I don't buy that you can't win against someone because they have full tier 6. The top teams on nearly every battlegroup are far above the ratings you are at, and by implication far above the ratings your PvE-geared opponent was at. And they almost universally wear PvP gear. Even the ones who are in BT raiding guilds (I myself am) wear PvP gear instead for arena.

This is a rather pitiful excuse in my opinion, to go in the trash bin along with "oh they have better ping than me, I can't win," and "oh they picked the better race, I can't win." No. You can win. Play better.

[Resc]

"Play better." What am I supposed to do? Maybe hit the keys harder so I can get higher crits?

I am one of the last persons to search for excuses. If there is a slight chance to win, I am trying to do so.

But in this case there was nothing I could do and yes I am fine with the argument that hardcore raiding guilds should have certain advantages but not in this extreme way.

Furthermore I in said "many" cases Pve has become too strong in arena, I should revaluate it to "some" cases as it might be more appropiate.

And of course not every class benefits in the same amount form pve gear and it also is not a either full pvp or full pve gear thing. Paladins for example do very well with 4/5 T5 or 2/5 T6 plus some other pve stuff mixed with some pvp gear.

In my case i assume the druid was wearing more pve gear than pvp gear as well as the warlock and it put them into a state whre "playing better" would not help.

[Eternia]

The only class that can complain about fighting against pve gear are warlocks... Coming from a warrior, its pretty laughable.

[chicosr]

The only class that can complain about fighting against pve gear are warlocks... Coming from a warrior, its pretty laughable.

lol wut?:confused:

[Tyveris]

lol wut?:confused:
Locks and Spriests have to deal with BT SR gear which isn't exactly fair.

In my opinion, the only place where PvE gear is too powerful is SR gear, the previously mentioned talisman, and potentially one day spell haste. Otherwise the increased damage or healing at cost of survivability seems reasonable.

[Resc]

The only class that can complain about fighting against pve gear are warlocks... Coming from a warrior, its pretty laughable.

If you want to allude to SR-Gear; well I never used it nor was I a supporter of this for the same reasons i have given in this thread.

And in my eyes we have reached a point where not only SR gear gives huge advantages but other pve gear as well.

What happened there to me in this match was a new experience for me and unbelievable at first, too. So maybe that is the reason for all the doubts I have to face here.

But maybe you should think about the fact that not so many people have a) all highend pve-gear and b) figured out how useful some of these pieces might be in PvP.

@Tyveris
In this case the increased healing also granted increased survivability.

[chicosr]

Locks and Spriests have to deal with BT SR gear which isn't exactly fair.

In my opinion, the only place where PvE gear is too powerful is SR gear, the previously mentioned talisman, and potentially one day spell haste. Otherwise the increased damage or healing at cost of survivability seems reasonable.

Ok, I understand that. Which is why I posted the other day about how bullshit shadow resist is. (http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=2868)

I thought the post from Eternia was referring to just pve and not actually "resist" gear. Which is some cheap shit and needs to be fixed somehow but I don't see how they can fix it.

[Teirisias]

Tier 6 changes the meta-game of the arena. Rampage is very well pve progressed and I've seen a dramatic decrease in the success of 4 dps in 5's teams and warlock teams in 2's because of it. Paladin healing is extremely strong with tier 6 and not much survivability is lost. Also, many top warriors are using weapons like cataclysm's edge and torch of the damned which are extremely strong. A rogue with warglaives can tear through almost anything in a matter of seconds. As already mentioned, BT SR completely decimates warlocks and shadow priests' ability to do damage. Also, black temple gems offer a small advantage as well. I'd say that certain classes using PvE gear in arenas have a significant advantage. I'm rarely focus fired in any bracket, so I know that I'd be using some PvE gear if I had the option.

I think it would help a little if the PvP gems weren't unique, or more gems were added. Also, season 3 gear should help close the gap. To say that PvE gear has no effect on arenas is ignorant, the damage and healing increases granted by it are too large to ignore. PvE geared paladins, warriors, hunters, and rogues are likely to increase in number at the higher rating brackets as gear progression continues, especially after Sunwell Plateau is introduced.

[Eternia]

Not just resist gear.

Just about the worst thing a warlock/healer team can run up against is a rogue in tier 6, or a dps/healer team with the healer being in raid gear.

[Resc]

So I met this druid again today with my shaman playing 3vs3.

For those who don't believe what he is wearing:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6523/t6druiday8.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t6druiday8.jpg)

I think one can recognize the items by the icons.

[Molp]

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Sh%C3%ADnta

Clearly, all skill and not at all because of gear.

[Tribby]

Given that screenshot, that druid is using a grand total of 20 resilience. Thus, you aren't hitting hard enough.

Two ways you could increase your output without pve gear are respeccing! Blood frenzy gives you an instant 4% more dmg or you could specc into improved slam - and given rage, I would estimate imp slam could lead to more than a 4% increase with an efficient rotation.

Edit-Afterthought: If you are reluctant to change specc I have one final idea. Did you try sundering the druid? If you reduce his armor you could be dealing nearly 20% more damage. One strategy could be to just keep MS up as you sunder and fill a rage bar, then dump all the rage and try and burn him down especially if he's just tanking you in caster.

[outbackjack]

Given that screenshot, that druid is using a grand total of 20 resilience. Thus, you aren't hitting hard enough.

Two ways you could increase your output without pve gear are respeccing! Blood frenzy gives you an instant 4% more dmg or you could specc into improved slam - and given rage, I would estimate imp slam could lead to more than a 4% increase with an efficient rotation.

because the increase in healing/regen doesnt make up for the extra dmg done on crits or anything...honestly what are we even talking about

[Branket]

resilence is broken past 250

[Resc]

Given that screenshot, that druid is using a grand total of 20 resilience. Thus, you aren't hitting hard enough.

Two ways you could increase your output without pve gear are respeccing! Blood frenzy gives you an instant 4% more dmg or you could specc into improved slam - and given rage, I would estimate imp slam could lead to more than a 4% increase with an efficient rotation.

Edit-Afterthought: If you are reluctant to change specc I have one final idea. Did you try sundering the druid? If you reduce his armor you could be dealing nearly 20% more damage. One strategy could be to just keep MS up as you sunder and fill a rage bar, then dump all the rage and try and burn him down especially if he's just tanking you in caster.

I don't think specc change would help as 33/28 provides more dmg in total numbers, but yeah I could try to sunder him next time. I was some kind of stunned irl by that what was going on there ;)

[Tribby]

I don't think specc change would help as 33/28 provides more dmg in total numbers, but yeah I could try to sunder him next time. I was some kind of stunned irl by that what was going on there ;)

By specc change I merely meant taking 2 points out of second wind (omg) and putting them into either slam or blood frenzy. Still 31/30 or 33/28, just a tad more offensive. Just to reiterate, sunder is huge in 2v2 bracket don't forget about it :)

[Ensky]

Our 3s druid also wears a lot of PvE gear in arenas. Sure he lacks survivability but he has some weird +healing amount allowing him to heal through everything. He basically only dies if the opposing team manages to stop his healing and burst him down (intercept->HoJ while being purged). I actually lost to him in a duell just because he could heal himself longer then I could survive his dmg via thorns... (granted no blind->bandage but still WTF...)

I hope the new S3 gear closes this gap again...