Axe vs Sword for ORC

[Hypnos]

The new orc racial is 1% crit with axes, which is obviously much better than it was before.

Now the concensus is that in S3, sword is superior to axe. But this is for most people, and most people aren't Orcs. 6% crit vs 5% sword spec is much different than 5% vs 5%.

So which way are all the warriors who rule, and are thus an orc, going?

http://www.warriorpwns.com/axevssword/

This calculator shows a massive advantage for swords if you're not an orc, and a slight advantage to axe if you are. Who knows how accurate the calculator is, but the source code is available on that page so you can see how he's calculating it.

[nubbey]

maybe with shitty gear axe has an advantage but at my gear level swords > axes for orc

[Magdain]

The new orc racial is 1% crit with axes, which is obviously much better than it was before.

Now the concensus is that in S3, sword is superior to axe. But this is for most people, and most people aren't Orcs. 6% crit vs 5% sword spec is much different than 5% vs 5%.

So which way are all the warriors who rule, and are thus an orc, going?

http://www.warriorpwns.com/axevssword/

This calculator shows a massive advantage for swords if you're not an orc, and a slight advantage to axe if you are. Who knows how accurate the calculator is, but the source code is available on that page so you can see how he's calculating it.

That calc shows something like 2% difference in favor of swords even as an orc for myself. I'll still be using swords or maces depending on bracket regardless though. An extra 1% proc rate on a proc whose damage will be reduced by ~25% doesn't really compare to a sword whose only mitigation is a roll which will in most cases be <10% (parry/dodge).

After I get full venge/weapon/frills and start banking I'll be picking up an axe to try (40% crit will be fun) but I doubt I'll be using it much in arenas.

[Warguyver]

With the DR on Silence/Interrupts revoked, I'm once again debating between Sword or Mace...

Ugghhhhh

[Saffira]

I love getting maced stunned by a whirlwinding warrior who im hella far away from.

(As a healer, I HATE mace spec.) As a warrior, I <3 mace spec.

[Gharakor]

That calc shows something like 2% difference in favor of swords even as an orc for myself. I'll still be using swords or maces depending on bracket regardless though. An extra 1% proc rate on a proc whose damage will be reduced by ~25% doesn't really compare to a sword whose only mitigation is a roll which will in most cases be <10% (parry/dodge).

After I get full venge/weapon/frills and start banking I'll be picking up an axe to try (40% crit will be fun) but I doubt I'll be using it much in arenas.

odd, I've put in my stats as an orc and it show a 1.26% increase in dmg in favor of the axes, and since I know you mag, pretty sure we both have the same kind of gear.

Oh well, I'll be still going sword for S3, but I might pick up an axe once I get my 5/5 to play around with.

[Magdain]

odd, I've put in my stats as an orc and it show a 1.26% increase in dmg in favor of the axes, and since I know you mag, pretty sure we both have the same kind of gear.

Oh well, I'll be still going sword for S3, but I might pick up an axe once I get my 5/5 to play around with.

I calced with no shout, 15% flurry 10% avoid 400 resil, and s2 weapon stats. The discrepancy might be if you used s3 weapons, which might be smart heh, but not sure.

running it again gives me:
Damage done over 5 minutes:

168328 - no spec
176732 - axe spec
176793 - sword spec

Axe added 8404 damage.
Sword added 8465 damage.

Sword spec better by 0.73%

with the stats from my armory currently (-16ap from low rank mark).

[Dragoth]

Once again:

Rule A (math)
+5% crit does not equal +5% damage, while 5% chance for a 2nd strike does.

Why?
Simple.

If you had 0% crit, than +5% crit would indeed mean +5% damage (100 + 5 = 105, 105/100 = 1,05 -> 105%).

But if you had 95% crit, then +5% crit would mean roughly +2,5% damage (195 + 5 = 200, 200/195 =~1,025 -> 102,5%).

You already have a chance to score a crit with a strike; usually around 30% for a s2 warrior.

So, basically, you damage including crits already starts from a socket of 130%. An increase by 5% would mean an actual damage increase by ~3,8%, or ~4,6% for orcs who have +6% crit on axes.
So, sword is - from a mere mathemical point of view - better.

Rule B (talents)
Axe benefits from talents triggering of critical strikes, but axe suffers from your opponents' talents which work the other way round.
So, axe has a slight edge over sword if you chose to go for deep wounds and impale (however, the actual increase is negligible: deep wounds is most likely to overwrite itself again and again anyways, and the damage increase from impale+axe spec isn't that huge), or for flurry (this is the best crit-dependant talent, but it's not that likely you have it anyways).
However, axe slightly suffers from all those talents that are triggered after a crit: enrage, blessed resilience, burning feet and whatever there is. The downsides still don't outweigh the benefits, but they tone it down a bit.

None of the above applies to swords (swords slightly suffer from those skills and talents that are triggered by the sheer number of attacks, like a WL's retaliate.


Rule C (ZOMG HAMSTRING CRIT)

The fact everyone already knows: a hamstring-crit is ridiculous, a hamstring triggering an additional attack isn't.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post 2.3, I'll still go for swords. Axe is more reliable, but overall, swords simply is better.

[Taifun]

Worth to mention fact racials has been changed to expertise rating instead of crit, in latest PTR patch.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2007/october/racialchange.jpg

[Panzerkampf]

It's worth to note that due to los/lag/facing, a swordspecc procc won't always result in an extra attack, even if the combat log states that it has procced.

Axe is also superior against targets with more than basic avoidance, an axe "procc" is a guaranteed crit, a sword specc procc can be missed/dodged/parried.

Axe also wins when using aoe abilities.

Sword wins in the rage and possible burst category tho, and it was overall pretty close for orcs with the old 1% crit racial.

The new changes kinda ruins the discussion tho, now axe is clearly superior for orcs, in all but staged tests where you always have access to the targets back.

[nubbey]

since the change to expertise, axe is a good deal better for orcs than sword....to the magnitude of ~20% depending on gear and spec.

IF YOU'RE AN ORC, GO AXES OR MACES

EVERYONE ELSE, SWORDS OR MACES

[Gharakor]

since the change to expertise, axe is a good deal better for orcs than sword....to the magnitude of ~20% depending on gear and spec.

IF YOU'RE AN ORC, GO AXES OR MACES

EVERYONE ELSE, SWORDS OR MACES

Do you have any references to that? I'm not doubting you, I just want to see numbers myself to make the final choice on my weapon next season.

[nubbey]

sure thing:
http://www.warriorpwns.com/axevssword/

give it a try

[Gharakor]

sure thing:
http://www.warriorpwns.com/axevssword/

give it a try

I tested myself on that site last week, came up with a 1.50% advantage in favor of axes, was negligible to me, I guess they changed the 1% crit to 5 expertise in the calculator, just redid the test, on opponents who doesn't parry, axes are better by 8-10%, but on opponents that can parry, the difference goes up to 46%. O_o this has to be wrong.

all the test were done with the following stats :

1746 ap
3.6 speed
135 dps
31.42% (my crit in zerker, which I am most of the time)
no flurry
orc
no Imp MS
10% avoidance
400 resilience

[Hypnos]

the difference goes up to 46%. O_o this has to be wrong.


why do you think this is wrong? here are the results for the data you gave:

Damage done over 5 minutes:

173636 - no spec
185337 - axe spec
181597 - sword spec

Axe added 11701 damage.
Sword added 7961 damage.

Axe spec better by 46.98%


As you can see, axe spec is really only doing like 2% more dmg (185337 vs 181597) overall. Its just that the damage its adding (11701) is about 47% more than the damage that sword is adding (7961).

[Gharakor]

it's surprising to me because I always thought the -20%ish reduction to crit dmg gimped axe spec to a point where sword would always, always be better. Guess I overestimated the effect of resilience, or the new orc racial is that OPed.

[nubbey]

well human with sword >> orc with axe

[Jardak]

black soul cleaver huzzah!

[Graviak]

The changes to the racial of some classes, gives me a headache. I used to be maces and then switched to swords. I really liked both. Both speccs have something you´re happy to happen. It´s the crucial stun, that keeps the rogue in place or shits up the healer or the extraattack taking of the priests shield or gibbing the numerous pets.

I tried out axe, and i never had the " famous critstrings" even sitting at 39% in zerker. So there was no, ok this is it, lets get the upper hand.

Another thing is, straight damage is easily outhealed, but the other two speccs are adding the " oh shit" factor , you have to be careful about.

Two nights ago, we fought the currently No.3 2v2 team in our Battlegroup ( Warrior/Druid ^^ ). Me swords the opposing warrior maces. It when on, and we would have lost the manafight, when i had those crazy proccs going of, and the enemy warrior went almost instantly down to around 20%.

Harr, i thought, now he´s dead,... then i caught a mace stun, the warrior intervened to his druid, got his heals and they won.

Even with a little more damage, axes are a nowgo for me. There are no funny things with axe, and it´s a game, so i wanna have fun.

Graviak

[Zulmaluka]

sword >axe atm...extra atack is rly good..but stil..[axe is mostly for pve but w/e still i see wars whit axe's in pvp]also if u got time n pts...go mace usualy viable thing to do ,whitout many regrets

[Zabuza]

Personally i thnk it comes down to each individual's play style. Personally I prefer the sword spec because of the extra rage obtained with it. Not only that, but the oh shit factor of smacking that guy an extra 1k damage to kill him never hurts. Your whole team make up determines what you should get. I keep hearing about lucky crit strings with Axes, but i am just as happy with the lucky sword proc which kills a player.

I remember someone mentioning that the extra swing can be parried, dodged, etc. but so can every attack where you aren't up on the backside.

There is a slight edge for myself as an orc to take the Axe, but i can't seem to pick up an axe over the sword.. It has served me well..

[tzou88]

In the end, the differences are so small in the grand scheme of things that people should just pick based on their preference, or hey, choose one that has the best look.

[Grukzar]

I'm loving swords at the moment, but the new axe is too cool looking to pass up.

[Faen]

Personally i thnk it comes down to each individual's play style. Personally I prefer the sword spec because of the extra rage obtained with it. Not only that, but the oh shit factor of smacking that guy an extra 1k damage to kill him never hurts. Your whole team make up determines what you should get. I keep hearing about lucky crit strings with Axes, but i am just as happy with the lucky sword proc which kills a player.
Is it actually clear that Swords would generate more rage than Axes, though? Because you have to take into account that even though Swords will get extra rage from procs on specials while Axes will not, Axes will do more white damage than Swords.

-------------

I'm trying to decide right now between Swords and Axes. I really hope Swords is better, because I don't want to be put in a situation where I have to choose between effectiveness and aesthetics. (In my opinion, the S3 Sword looks badass, whereas the Axe looks lame in comparison.)

According to the calculator, Axes is clearly better than Swords. If the target can parry (hunters, rogues, warriors, and enh shammies?), marginally, it is about 40% better than Swords, and about 10% better if the target can't parry, but only dodge (clothies). One thing I am very curious if it takes into account though, is that now in PvP, you will want to hamstring your target every 10 seconds. This fact favors Sword spec, since Sword proc hamstring > Axe spec hamstring. I highly suspect that this calculator does not model this. If this is true, it means that for PvP, the calculator overestimates the superiority of Axe spec.

[nubbey]

of course the calculator models hamstring procs...

[Kcolraw]

In the end, the differences are so small in the grand scheme of things that people should just pick based on their preference, or hey, choose one that has the best look.
yeah pretty much, i mean if you're orc you can be completely anal about it and get axes, or you can just get sword for the lulz

[Faen]

of course the calculator models hamstring procs...
You just made me look at the source code. Not only does the model not factor in hamstring every 10 seconds, it doesn't factor hamstring in at all. What did you learn?

[Jardak]

axe is about 8% better with just dodging targets, and 18% better with dodging and parrying targets for orcs (around there anyway)

hamstring/pummel procs would probably close the gap b/t the two specs, but im not sure it would overtake it

im curious though as to what you found reading the code. missing something like hamstring procs is pretty substantial, seeing how those procs are a fundamental difference in their usefulness >.<

edit: forgot to turn the little tab that says yes to parry >.<, its like 40% with dodging and parrying

[Faen]

For me the difference was a lot more substantial. It was about 12% better if they can't parry, and more than 40% better if they could. Good point about pummel also though, that would further skew things.

If you look at the code, this is the part where he calculates the damage:
// DAMAGE OVER 300 SECONDS:
$normalDMG = round(($whiteDPS * $critFactor + ($MSDPS + $WWDPS) * $skillCritFactor) * 300 * $toHit);
echo($normalDMG." - no spec<br />");

// DAMAGE OVER 300 SECONDS WITH AXE
$axeDMG = round(($whiteAxeDPS * $axeCritFactor + ($MSDPS + $WWDPS) * $axeSkillCritFactor) * 300 * $axeToHit);
echo($axeDMG." - axe spec<br />");

// DAMAGE OVER 300 SECONDS WITH SWORD
$swordDMG = round(($whiteDPS * $critFactor + ($MSDPS + $WWDPS) * $skillCritFactor) * 300 * $swordToHit
+ 300 * $swordToHit * $swordToHit * $hitspersecond * 0.05 * $whiteDPS * $weaponSpeed * $critFactor);
echo($swordDMG." - sword spec<br />");
You will notice that the only skills he models are autoattack, ms, and whirlwind. ($whiteDPS, $MSDPS, and $WWDPS)

Obviously, there are a lot of other things he didn't account for, like armor, global cooldown conflicts, etc, but only the factors that affect axe and sword differently are relevant. One such factor that would be interesting to see modeled would be rage, because right now he is assuming you have enough rage to cast ww+ms every time they are up. Axe and Sword spec will have different rates of rage generation, and the more rage you generate, the more you can dump it into other things, like sunders, heroic strikes, etc, which is huge. I could see how all this would be very difficult to model though.

[Jardak]

Thanks for the point-out hiim :)

im just gunna flip a coin for next season or some shit, damn specs are too close to min/max which one is best

i should have rolled tauren...would have made my choice much easier :P

[Panzerkampf]

seems like the calculator author can't post here, but he's claiming it models hamstring being used every 20 second, at www.warriorpwns.com

[Jardak]

...so what exactly are you orcs out there getting lol?

[Gharakor]

an axe, if worst come to worst and the spec is still disapointing even with that expertise buff, I'm gonna buy a sword once I'm done buying all my vengeful set, and use my SH in the meantime.

[Kcolraw]

...so what exactly are you orcs out there getting lol?

mace of course

[Faen]

seems like the calculator author can't post here, but he's claiming it models hamstring being used every 20 second, at www.warriorpwns.com
Interesting, thanks for pointing that out. A more direct link is http://www.warriorpwns.com/category/talents/axe-vs-sword/

This is what he says in response:
You are right, and you are wrong at the same time :). There is no point in modeling hamstring or pummel for axe spec. In sword formula there is a magic variable $hitspersecond which is an estimation (there are way too many things that affect that number to make it constant) which includes auto attacks (with flurry if you have it, and flurry uptime is ruled by simulator for that case), MS and WW every GCD but also Hamstring. The number I put on hamstring is once every 20 seconds, which is LOW, and I know it. Calculator is not accurate, because it’s not possible to make one that’s accurate. Somewhere in comments someone asked me if I can do same thing for hamstring every 8 or 10 seconds and pummel every 20 (don’t remember exactly) and in that test axe went a bit below swords for targets that can’t parry (difference was negligible), and above swords for targets that can parry, so even if axe is not going to be uber superior for some encounters even for an orc warrior, it’s still not worse then Sword. There will be situations where axe is clearly superior, there will be situations where sword is clearly superior, no matter what. In other words: 5% crit + 2.5% avoidance reduction > 5% extra attack, 5% crit + 1.25% avoidance reduction = or > 5% extra attack.
So basically he says that even if you account for hamstring and pummel (which benefits Swords, and not Axes), Axes is still basically better (more dmg) or about equal ( for targets that cannot parry) for Orcs. Nice.

[TotalAbsolute]

Im going to grab up an axe and stack more AP than crit and still keep a 35% chance to crit while having more ap than any sword spec warrior or mace warrior, along with being a orc having bloodfury and a higher chance to hit targets that can avoid me which happens alot, dodge, parry, at least thats the way im looking at it... I've been away from my blood stained axe for to long...

[Maghari]

I'm using axe just because I miss it too much, and I know I'll have enough extra points for another weapon mid-season