Preferred CC Chain

[Davincee]

What is your preferred CC chain on a healer?

I usually cyclone -> feral charge -> bash (wait for the miss to pop up) -> cyclone and hold on 3rd cyclone unless its necessary.

[Druds]

if i start in cat, stun, rake, leave cat, cyclone, cyclone, feral charge, stun, go cat and maim, (cyclone, cyclone)

I guess thats what i do.

[Unraveller]

What is your preferred CC chain on a healer?

I usually cyclone -> feral charge -> bash (wait for the miss to pop up) -> cyclone and hold on 3rd cyclone unless its necessary.

That's a very poor use of diminishing returns. The diminishing returns resets at 18 seconds regardless of the duration of cyclone. So:

Quoted Method:
Cyclone (6) -> Feral Charage (4) -> Bash (4) -> Cyclone (3) = 17 seconds of lockdown, but your diminishing returns reseting on your 2nd cyclone, it's at: 18 - 3 = 15 seconds before you can start this routine over again.

Optimal Method:
Cyclone (6) -> Cyclone (3) -> Feral Charge (4) -> Bash (4) = 17 seconds of lockdown of 24 seconds. Diminishing returns will start ticking on the second Cyclone, reseting to 18 seconds. 18 - 3 - 4 - 4 = 7 seconds before you can start the chain over again in 7 seconds... (not including the bash).



With method #2, you allow the enemy to have 7 seconds of freedom (or 11) every 24 seconds. That's 29% activity... With method #1you allow the enemy 53% activity. If you chain it properly, it is out of hand...

[Neajane]

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P

[Peck]

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P

Not anymore than I see a problem with allowing a warrior to have 0% activity indefinately. Druid CC FTW.

Oh, and I usually Cyclone/cyclone/cyclone/feral charge/bash... Dependant on the situation I will root a healer too if their teammate is too far away to be healed. Even if they can dispell it, I'm chain casting it just waiting for the DR on cyclone to finish to hit em with it again... As a resto druid I rarely expend the mana to shift to Cat and build up a Maim, although it would facilitate waiting for the 7ish or so seconds that Cyclone is on DR after Feral Charge and Bash.

[Unraveller]

Hmmm....

Cyclone (6) -> Feral Charge (4) -> Bash (4) = 4 seconds uncontrolled, when you include the time delay on Feral Charge, thats closer to 3 seconds... So, let's try this then...

Cyclone (6) -> FC (4) -> Bash (4) -> Warstomp (1) -> wait (1) -> Cyclone (6) -> Cyclone (3) -> Cyclone (1.5) -> FC (4) = 31 /32 seconds of controlled.

Now THAT'S a healer lockdown...

[Duraeas]

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P

Yes, its absolutely retarded. A Druid can CC me longer (while healing) than a Mage. I'm surprised none of these people who know how to do so are 2200+, since you can basically lock out every Paladin in the game like that.

[Unraveller]

Yes, its absolutely retarded. A Druid can CC me longer (while healing) than a Mage. I'm surprised none of these people who know how to do so are 2200+, since you can basically lock out every Paladin in the game like that.

Just rerolled my 2251 2v2... Original members had like 500 games played and i had 60 (from 1900->2350 lol).

SL lock was definitely EZmode, I'm going to try with a warrior now.

[Druds]

Yes, its absolutely retarded. A Druid can CC me longer (while healing) than a Mage. I'm surprised none of these people who know how to do so are 2200+, since you can basically lock out every Paladin in the game like that.

SoJ on me and get your warrior to skillstun me and byebye litle druid.

[Duraeas]

In 2.3 you're going to have an additional (up to) 15% DR against Warriors. In Bear form, he isn't going to kill you. All it takes is someone to keep the Warrior off you for 1.x seconds to cast Cyclone and you can heal to full. Not really anything I can do as a Paladin about it.

[Molp]

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P

What is your warrior or warlock partner doing while I pull the 20 second CC of doom? If the warrior is on me I will be dead before I am done with the CC chain. With a lock I will be mana drained to oblivion. And lets not forget spell interrupts.

Whenever I have tried the "chain CC pally while killing the warrior" thing I got smashed to pieces. It sounds much better in theory than in reality.

[Neajane]

Ha, I wouldn't be surprised if they moved FFF to a base talent and feral charge to 21 >.>

Honestly, Resto druid healing capacity isn't all that great, its the combination of Hamstring + Travel form for 2's, and arena water.

And as a paladin or another healer if you put yourself in a position to allow a feral charging druid to escape, or actually interrupt your heal that's your fault.

The Resto change is decent for helping their numbers in 5's, essentially what probably would be best is blizzard could modify 1-2 things for 2's:

1. Increase the mana cost of travel form slightly

2. Increase the DR reset timer for CC by 2-3 seconds, right now its pretty short for classes without shared DR CC. (Shared diminishing returns would cripple druids, like Mages/Locks getting the nerfbat sadly already)

3. Move feral charge up the tree, possibly?

All the QQ about form to form shapeshifting is ignorance, its something that's already possible, and has been possible with /cancelform for a while. Most druids just don't bother to use a macro.

Resto didn't need the buff though, feral/balance could have used that type of talent to much more effect.

[Molp]

3. Move feral charge up the tree, possibly?



Only if shapeshifting removes JoJ.

[Neajane]

What is your warrior or warlock partner doing while I pull the 20 second CC of doom? If the warrior is on me I will be dead before I am done with the CC chain. With a lock I will be mana drained to oblivion. And lets not forget spell interrupts.

Whenever I have tried the "chain CC pally while killing the warrior" thing I got smashed to pieces. It sounds much better in theory than in reality.

Its fine in theory and practice, perhaps your partner is DC'd? Because I for one, know my partner is being harried by your partner during this CC :]

I simply asked if anyone thought there was something wrong with a deep healing specc'd class having this much CC.


If the warrior is on me I will be dead before I am done with the CC chain.

And sorry, but this is just false, 20 seconds isn't enough to kill me or you at the 2.3k+ level and you know it.

[Neajane]

Only if shapeshifting removes JoJ.

JoJ isn't a movement impairing effect.

[Druds]

All the QQ about form to form shapeshifting is ignorance, its something that's already possible, and has been possible with /cancelform for a while. Most druids just don't bother to use a macro.


No you still used 1-2 sec depending on your lagg etc.

PS: JoJ should atleast be removed with pvp trinket.

[Molp]

And sorry, but this is just false, 20 seconds isn't enough to kill me or you at the 2.3k+ level and you know it.

To chain CC I have to be standing still in caster for a substantial amount of time. The warrior will intercept following my feral charge to the pally (breaking the CC chain by the way). During that time the warrior is free to wail on me, and pummel one cyclone in the process. Not to mention that your warrior will have plenty of rage from getting beat on. And yes I can easily die in 20 seconds to a 100 rage warrior when in caster form.

Yes, the chain CC of doom can work, but it requires the moment to be right. When the warrior is near me the moment is not right. People make it sound like a druid can just walk into the arena, CC the healer and have the match be over in 20 seconds.

[Neajane]

No you still used 1-2 sec depending on your lagg etc.

PS: JoJ should atleast be removed with pvp trinket.

How does JoJ cause you to lose control of your character again?

[Molp]

JoJ isn't a movement impairing effect.

My speed in human form: 109%
My speed in travel: 161%
My speed in bear: 125%

My speed with JoJ: 100%.
Speed of the warrior chasing me: 109%.

No movement impairment my ass. Yes the spell was clearly designed to counter druids. Feral charge is meant to counter JoJ. You cannot take away our only counter to JoJ. Not unless you want to turn warrior/pally into an auto loss for druids.

[Neajane]

To chain CC I have to be standing still in caster for a substantial amount of time. The warrior will intercept following my feral charge to the pally (breaking the CC chain by the way). During that time the warrior is free to wail on me, and pummel one cyclone in the process. Not to mention that your warrior will have plenty of rage from getting beat on. And yes I can easily die in 20 seconds to a 100 rage warrior when in caster form.

Yes, the chain CC of doom can work, but it requires the moment to be right. When the warrior is near me the moment is not right. People make it sound like a druid can just walk into the arena, CC the healer and have the match be over in 20 seconds.

I didn't say any of this.

You DO have at least the *OPTION* of "CC of Doom" as you put it.

I'm just trying to point out that the other 3 healing classes have no such combination of options in addition to being able to heal comparably to the other 3 classes.


To chain CC I have to be standing still in caster for a substantial amount of time.

1.4 seconds?


The warrior will intercept following my feral charge to the pally (breaking the CC chain by the way).

The warrior must intercept to you to reach you if you played correctly (read: Don't stand next to him). Meaning feral charge is still an out, even assuming that the healer you charge is a paladin who has joj queue'd. I will admit a good healer will put you in danger doing this, but once again no other healer has such an interupt that acts as an out.


During that time the warrior is free to wail on me, and pummel one cyclone in the process.

1.4 seconds, lol wut. Wait for MS, he'll be on GCD, then cyclone.


And yes I can easily die in 20 seconds to a 100 rage warrior when in caster form.

Maybe if you stood there and did none of what was prescribed above for 20 seconds.


My original question to other druids still stands, don't you find it a little unbalanced that the 3 other healing classes lack this comprehensive of CC?

[Druds]

How does JoJ cause you to lose control of your character again?


You dont but I would just like to see a way to get out of it, but as the last post in my eyes it is a movement impairing effect.

[Neajane]

My speed in human form: 109%
My speed in travel: 161%
My speed in bear: 125%

My speed with JoJ: 100%.
Speed of the warrior chasing me: 109%.

No movement impairment my ass. Yes the spell was clearly designed to counter druids. Feral charge is meant to counter JoJ. You cannot take away our only counter to JoJ. Not unless you want to turn warrior/pally into an auto loss for druids.

Wait, where did I say we're removing feral charge from the game?

Also, JoJ has been addressed in blue posts, its classified as a "movement limiting effect" and as such is not the same as "movement impairing".

Druids with the assistance of your partner(you know you have one right?), can easily still escape JoJ, don't make it seem like the match is over because the druid gets JoJ on him.

[Neajane]

You dont but I would just like to see a way to get out of it, but as the last post in my eyes it is a movement impairing effect.

Does trinket remove slow?

[Druds]

Yes,
Removes all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character.

[Taffy]

In 2.3 you're going to have an additional (up to) 15% DR against Warriors. In Bear form, he isn't going to kill you. All it takes is someone to keep the Warrior off you for 1.x seconds to cast Cyclone and you can heal to full. Not really anything I can do as a Paladin about it.

oh yeah poor you mister paladin qqqqqqqq. big bad skilled druid can chain together about 8 different abilities and, with timing and luck, lock your qq'ing ass out.

meanwhile poor mister paladin just has to cast 2 instants (bof and joj) and sit there with his thumb up his ass until the druid needs to heal then *gasp* a 5 second instant ranged stun! yet somehow only the best pallies can manage to even use it at the right time!

who would have thought easy-mode would get less profitable once people who rolled skill classes learned to play?

yeah i said it.

/cast Divine Shield
/twiddle

[Molp]

Yes we have the option to CC. You have the luxury of plate armor, bubbles, blessings and better dispel. Tradeoffs. Noone can have it all.

Yes I can get one CC off. But the complaint is about chaining CCs, which requires several cyclones. Add in the one that gets pummeled and you are looking at quite some time in caster form.

Yes if
a) I am within 30 yards of the pally
b) I am far away from your warrior
c) My warrior is on your warrior
d) My warrior is not in any imminent danger of dying

Then I can pull the CC of doom. The problem is, that rarely happens. A smart team can always make a+b impossible by simply standing on top of each other. If the warrior stands on top of the pally, the 1.4 seconds are enough to bridge the 5 yards distance difference and intercept me.

Further, b+c+d together is another sticky point. If I am far away from your warrior and my warrior is on your warrior then my warrior is out of heal range. So yes I can pull the CC of doom to prevent you from healing. But I just prevented myself from healing as well. If in that situation my warrior does not get the kill we are screwed, because druid HoTs are not enough to get in front of the damage an MS warrior can pull out. We can maintain the status quo very well, but once things go south its a train wreck in slow motion.

It is not impossible by any means but it is not nearly as strong as you may think since it requires mistakes on your part to be possible. We once played a 5 game series vs Spoh/Serennia and the total number of CCs cast by Spoh was 1, not counting Nature's Grasp (yes that one CC was on me when I shook Serennia and he turned around and gibbed my warrior). Or watch the Hafu 2v3 video and observe her not using much CC.

Druid CC is powerful but dangerous since a bad resist or well-timed interrupt can really ruin your day.


I didn't say any of this.

You DO have at least the *OPTION* of "CC of Doom" as you put it.

I'm just trying to point out that the other 3 healing classes have no such combination of options in addition to being able to heal comparably to the other 3 classes.



1.4 seconds?



The warrior must intercept to you to reach you if you played correctly (read: Don't stand next to him). Meaning feral charge is still an out, even assuming that the healer you charge is a paladin who has joj queue'd. I will admit a good healer will put you in danger doing this, but once again no other healer has such an interupt that acts as an out.



1.4 seconds, lol wut. Wait for MS, he'll be on GCD, then cyclone.



Maybe if you stood there and did none of what was prescribed above for 20 seconds.


My original question to other druids still stands, don't you find it a little unbalanced that the 3 other healing classes lack this comprehensive of CC?

[Neajane]

Yes,
Removes all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character.

Movement limiting =/= Movement impairing

[Neajane]

Or watch the Hafu 2v3 video and observe her not using much CC.

Wait, what? She doesn't use CC because the other team has an extra player, NO WAY!

[Molp]

Moving it down to 21 points is as good as removing it from the game for all non-feral druids. Which is a complete non-starter since in 5v5 it is our only true escape since travel form in that bracket is suicide. The only option would then be to spec moonkin/resto.

What can my warrior partner do to another warrior with BoF on him?

Basically, if you removed feral charge, against warrior/pally, warrior/druid would be like this. Pop bear, wait for NG to be up and BoF to be down, root warrior behind pillar. Heal, bear up again and repeat. Either die before cooldown is up or don't. Entertaining.

Wait, where did I say we're removing feral charge from the game?

Also, JoJ has been addressed in blue posts, its classified as a "movement limiting effect" and as such is not the same as "movement impairing".

Druids with the assistance of your partner(you know you have one right?), can easily still escape JoJ, don't make it seem like the match is over because the druid gets JoJ on him.

[Molp]

Wait, what? She doesn't use CC because the other team has an extra player, NO WAY!

Wouldn't CC be best in that situation? People complain all the time how cyclone makes it a 2v1.Shouldn't turning a 2v3 into a 2v2 be on top of the list?

There are not very many good recent druid videos unfortunately, but playing on BG9 I have had the luxury of playing against several top druids (a benefit of queuing late is getting to play against top teams even with a measily 2100 rating). And it was not the CC that owned us. Amazing use of travel form, yes. Well-timed feral charges, yes. Chain CC, no.

The only bracket where I chain CC is 5v5. Fact is, without chain CC druids are a waste of space in 5v5. Nerfing CC would hurt druids in the one bracket where they suck anyway and as such is a complete non-starter from a balance perspective.

Nerfing mobility would be a better nerf for 2v2, but nerfing mobility would destroy what makes druids unique and fun to play. As such it is a complete non-starter from a fun perspective. And Blizzard agrees, seeing how they lowered the shapeshifting costs and are now enabling instant shitfing.

[Molp]

Movement limiting =/= Movement impairing

Yes, Blizzard made that choice purely due to semantics and not at all as a balancing move. How much effort do you think it would take to change the wording?

[Neajane]

Yes we have the option to CC. You have the luxury of plate armor, bubbles, blessings and better dispel. Tradeoffs. Noone can have it all.
[quote]

None of said luxuries are forms of CC. Try to stay on task here, because entangling roots(this is really a form of CC too but for arguement's sake...), barkskin, bearform, hot.

We're not talking about class "luxuries here", we're talking about crowd control


[quote]
Yes I can get one CC off. But the complaint is about chaining CCs, which requires several cyclones. Add in the one that gets pummeled and you are looking at quite some time in caster form.

Yes if
a) I am within 30 yards of the pally
b) I am far away from your warrior
c) My warrior is on your warrior
d) My warrior is not in any imminent danger of dying


Hello start of the game, I'm in stealth, I chose where to come out, if you're warrior is in danger with >10 seconds from the charge opening, you're undergeared.


Then I can pull the CC of doom. The problem is, that rarely happens. A smart team can always make a+b impossible by simply standing on top of each other. If the warrior stands on top of the pally, the 1.4 seconds are enough to bridge the 5 yards distance difference and intercept me.


Which goes back to my original point which was the warrior HAS TO USE INTERCEPT IN THIS SITUATION. I don't know how else to spell it out to you, if they stand together, that simply works in your favor. You ignore the fact that your partner has things like Intercept/Deathcoil as well when it happens.


Further, b+c+d together is another sticky point. If I am far away from your warrior and my warrior is on your warrior then my warrior is out of heal range.


Wait what? They're in melee range of eachother but you're not in range to heal. K. Sure.

So yes I can pull the CC of doom to prevent you from healing. But I just prevented myself from healing as well. If in that situation my warrior does not get the kill we are screwed, because druid HoTs are not enough to get in front of the damage an MS warrior can pull out. We can maintain the status quo very well, but once things go south its a train wreck in slow motion.
Its a good thing you can only cyclone healers then!


It is not impossible by any means but it is not nearly as strong as you may think since it requires mistakes on your part to be possible. We once played a 5 game series vs Spoh/Serennia and the total number of CCs cast by Spoh was 1, not counting Nature's Grasp (yes that one CC was on me when I shook Serennia and he turned around and gibbed my warrior). Or watch the Hafu 2v3 video and observe her not using much CC.


So one set of 5 games, where a 2k rated 2v2 plays a 2.6k rated 2v2, and you ...lost? Its totally not possible that Spoh just didn't feel the need and/or threatened at all by your partner.

Hafu comment addressed in another post, a 2v3 vidoe where the druid often is being focused on by TWO people just isn't a good example to support your arguement at all.


Druid CC is powerful but dangerous since a bad resist or well-timed interrupt can really ruin your day.

Once again I'll attempt to get across what I'm trying to get you to see here, its this:

When a healer is casting a heal, its not that you WILL be "CC of Doom'd", its the fact that you COULD BE if the druid healer is not dealt with immediately. Its the threat of the CC in addition to the actually ability to cast it. Possessing the CC limits your opponents options, not so with other healing classes.

[Peck]

Neajane, for starters, I agree that Druids have certain aspects which make them Overpowered in Arenas, to deny this fact would be folly considering how many of us are present in the upper ratings of most 2v2s and 3v3s across all battlegroups...

However, our ability to CC is one of the ways we have to mitigate damage (yes there are many, but this is also true for at least paladins(AC and bubble) and priests(PWS, Inner Fire, Blessed Resilience) shammies are still weak in this category, however). Physical DPS classes pound us relentlessly if we're in caster form even for 5 seconds, therefore, waiting for a warrior to apply a mortal strike before we CC to avoid a pummel isnt' always an option. Also, it takes more than 1.4 seconds to Effectively do a CC lockdown on someone, it works out to be about 4.2 seconds in order to lock down someone for 10.5 with Cyclone, or almost half the duration that someone is CCd for. In addition, the fact that it has to be recast makes us succeptible to any other type of Counterspell while we try to recast, in addition to Cyclone actually having to BREAK before we can reapply. A crafty warrior can intercept the 2nd cyclone, or a mage can CS it as the first one fades.

In addition, our healing doesn't compare to priests/sham/paladins when there is a Mortal Strike type debuff applied to a target... HoTs aren't enough to keep someone up with a warrior who has full rage pounding on them, we're forced to resort to our Direct Heals, which are excessively ineffecient... Cycloning the DPS to heal our partner up is what saves my partner a huge portion of the time.

So we've been given a unique CC to try and offset some of these deficiencies. Balanced? maybe not. Can any other healers do this? Definately not, but at the same time we can't stop incoming spells (earth shock/Grounding), dispel harmful magical debuffs on our partners (Cleanse/Dispell/Tremor), cast BoFreedom, BoP, BoSac to stop CC, or make ourselves invulnerable for a period of time.

Yes, we can shift out of Poly and root to break certain CC, yes we can dispell poisons and curses, and yes we can interrupt with Feral Charge. But Feral Charge cannot be applied to stop a spellcast unless we're anticipating it or happened to shift to bear at an opportune time by accident... 1.5 GCD to shift to bear, and a few fractions of a second to wait for furor to tick isn't fast enough to stop a poly on my warrior that i'm not anticipating.

Are druids better off than other healers in the 2v2 and 3v3 bracket? Definately, but each healer has his own unique shit to do that the others can't, Cyclone just happens to be more noticable than everyone elses. Nontheless a crafty player of any of the other healers can still beat us, especially considering the majority of us are schmucks who rerolled Druid after TBC, and don't really know the class that well.

Is cyclone overpowered? ATM probably, its the only CC whose SOLE counter is a Trinket. Will it be nerfed? Probably, but without it being effective, then Paladin teams will start crushing druids teams on a regular basis. As it is now, Pal/War and Pal/Warlock are just as effective in different ways than Dru/War and Dru/Warlock, and either matrix with either healer has the ability to win the fight.

Please keep it civil, you're bringing up good points, and I am always down for a good argument.

[Neajane]

Yes, Blizzard made that choice purely due to semantics and not at all as a balancing move. How much effort do you think it would take to change the wording?


It was stated to be a counter to shapeshifting, get over it already.

I was running the damn flag in WSG all the time when this change happened on my druid, it sucked. Bad.

[Molp]

It was 2.2k vs 2.4k at that point. You don't get to 97% wins by taking opponents lightly. Especially not opponents that can chain stun you when you get unlucky.

The point is that he got away just fine without CC. Standing in caster and cycloning would only have made it worse, because it adds the risk of a bad resist. In a mirror match my warrior once melted the druid in 10 seconds right at the beginning. Well-timed pummel combined with a bad resist, dead druid.

Yes druids have the option of the CC of doom. Its a luxury the class brings to the table. The same way you bring plate armor and two bubbles to the table, which prevent you from dying during a bad mace stun.

You want to nerf druid CC. Are you prepared to give us plate armor in caster form in return? Funny how pallies like to complain about their only counter. My counter is getting beaten to a pulp, especially in 5v5 (where there are 6 pallies per druid). I would gladly have to worry only about being CCed.



So one set of 5 games, where a 2k rated 2v2 plays a 2.6k rated 2v2, and you ...lost? Its totally not possible that Spoh just didn't feel the need and/or threatened at all by your partner.

When a healer is casting a heal, its not that you WILL be "CC of Doom'd", its the fact that you COULD BE if the druid healer is not dealt with immediately. Its the threat of the CC in addition to the actually ability to cast it. Possessing the CC limits your opponents options, not so with other healing classes.

[Unraveller]

uo very well, but once things go south its a train wreck in slow motion.

It is not impossible by any means but it is not nearly as strong as you may think since it requires mistakes on your part to be possible. We once played a 5 game series vs Spoh/Serennia and the total number of CCs cast by Spoh was 1, not counting Nature's Grasp (yes that one CC was on me when I shook Serennia and he turned around and gibbed my warrior).

I'd like to hear more about this 5 series and the strategies that Spoh was using, since he wasn't using cyclone. There is a lot to be learned from those 2.

I used to run UBRS with Avatar back in the launch days, weird...

[Neajane]

Neajane, for starters, I agree that Druids have certain aspects which make them Overpowered in Arenas, to deny this fact would be folly considering how many of us are present in the upper ratings of most 2v2s and 3v3s across all battlegroups...

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH you guys are killing me! No! no! no!

Guys. Its not druids. Its not warlocks. Put the common denominator together, druids are way more balanced and fine than warriors ever have been.


However, our ability to CC is one of the ways we have to mitigate damage (yes there are many, but this is also true for at least paladins(AC and bubble) and priests(PWS, Inner Fire, Blessed Resilience) shammies are still weak in this category, however). Physical DPS classes pound us relentlessly if we're in caster form even for 5 seconds, therefore, waiting for a warrior to apply a mortal strike before we CC to avoid a pummel isnt' always an option. Also, it takes more than 1.4 seconds to Effectively do a CC lockdown on someone, it works out to be about 4.2 seconds in order to lock down someone for 10.5 with Cyclone, or almost half the duration that someone is CCd for. In addition, the fact that it has to be recast makes us succeptible to any other type of Counterspell while we try to recast, in addition to Cyclone actually having to BREAK before we can reapply. A crafty warrior can intercept the 2nd cyclone, or a mage can CS it as the first one fades.


So essentially you reaffirm my points here?

Here you compare a 5 minute cooldown to a shapeshift out like bearform, or nature's grasp. And we're mostly talking abotu a Druid/Warrior vs. Paladin/Warrior match-up here at this point. Where did counterspell pop up?

And once again, if the warrior burns intercept on you, that's playing directly into your hands.



In addition, our healing doesn't compare to priests/sham/paladins when there is a Mortal Strike type debuff applied to a target... HoTs aren't enough to keep someone up with a warrior who has full rage pounding on them, we're forced to resort to our Direct Heals, which are excessively ineffecient... Cycloning the DPS to heal our partner up is what saves my partner a huge portion of the time.

I can't flash of light spam *only* to keep a warrior up. A priest has to resort to Gheal spam, he can't just renew and bubble. A shaman must use healing wave. SO ...you have to use regrowth/lifebloomx3/rejuv, how is spending mana requiring you to have CC while other classes do not have access to it?

So we've been given a unique CC to try and offset some of these deficiencies. Balanced? maybe not. Can any other healers do this? Definately not, but at the same time we can't stop incoming spells (earth shock/Grounding), dispel harmful magical debuffs on our partners (Cleanse/Dispell/Tremor), cast BoFreedom, BoP, BoSac to stop CC, or make ourselves invulnerable for a period of time.

Once again you're comparing YOUR CC to other classes abilties, and not their CC.

But seriously though, earth shock. You serious? Shamans got nothing, cept for purgedpoop shield. Grounding does manage to suck up those rank 1 moonfires.


Yes, we can shift out of Poly and root to break certain CC, yes we can dispell poisons and curses, and yes we can interrupt with Feral Charge. But Feral Charge cannot be applied to stop a spellcast unless we're anticipating it or happened to shift to bear at an opportune time by accident... 1.5 GCD to shift to bear, and a few fractions of a second to wait for furor to tick isn't fast enough to stop a poly on my warrior that i'm not anticipating.


So you're supposed to be able to stop that which you're not anticipating? Once again, I'm pointing out that *right now* *this season* you have the ability to do this type of stuff that other healing classes don't.


Are druids better off than other healers in the 2v2 and 3v3 bracket? Definately, but each healer has his own unique shit to do that the others can't, Cyclone just happens to be more noticable than everyone elses. Nontheless a crafty player of any of the other healers can still beat us, especially considering the majority of us are schmucks who rerolled Druid after TBC, and don't really know the class that well.

Spoh's arena ratings, and Hafu's recent arena ratings suggest otherwise, but ok ;P. "Crafty" paladins can beat you.


Is cyclone overpowered? ATM probably, its the only CC whose SOLE counter is a Trinket. Will it be nerfed? Probably, but without it being effective, then Paladin teams will start crushing druids teams on a regular basis. As it is now, Pal/War and Pal/Warlock are just as effective in different ways than Dru/War and Dru/Warlock, and either matrix with either healer has the ability to win the fight.


Nerfed in what way? None of the changes I suggested mentioned cyclone.



Please keep it civil, you're bringing up good points, and I am always down for a good argument.

Indeed.

[Molp]

I'd just like to hear more about this encounter and the strategies that spoh was using, since he wasn't using cyclone. There is a lot to be learned from those 2... I used to run UBRS with Avatar back in the launch days, weird...

It is hard to put it in words, really. We analyze all our losses, and normally we find ways we could have won or how we simply got unlucky. But not that time (and we were actually doing well back then, not the streak of suckiness we had lately). He was simply always around a corner when intercept was up. I have no idea how he managed that on Lordaeron where he essentially ran from one end of the arena to the next and back. He also rarely used bear form.

I think the key part is detailed knowledge of the arena. Knowing exactly what puts you into LoS of an intercept. Like, which parts of the ramp in BE LoS you and which don't. How to precisely LoS using the little graves on Lordaeron. I personally only estimate those and often get caught in an intercept wher I didn't think it would be possible. Could also be my ping.

The one takeaway I got though was to stealth whenever it was up. The second takeaway was that I suck at this game. At least we beat up some 1900 rated warrior/druid team following the 5 game series, so that made me feel better.

[Neajane]

I'm pretty much sick and tired of explaining it, here goes:



It was 2.2k vs 2.4k at that point. You don't get to 97% wins by taking opponents lightly. Especially not opponents that can chain stun you when you get unlucky.


So one instance of one RNG win with a stun proc invalidates all of the points I bring up?


The point is that he got away just fine without CC. Standing in caster and cycloning would only have made it worse, because it adds the risk of a bad resist. In a mirror match my warrior once melted the druid in 10 seconds right at the beginning. Well-timed pummel combined with a bad resist, dead druid.

This statement seems to suggest you wouldn't even need cyclone? Not sure what you're trying to point out. And..... a mirror match with a druid whom we know nothing about. He said she said what if blah blah, ok.


Yes druids have the option of the CC of doom. Its a luxury the class brings to the table. The same way you bring plate armor and two bubbles to the table, which prevent you from dying during a bad mace stun.

Once again every class has their different abilities, its why we're different. I'm trying to point out that you have the only reliable form of CC of the healing classes, WHILE still sharing many benefits of other healing classes. This suggests the other healing classes need help.


You want to nerf druid CC. Are you prepared to give us plate armor in caster form in return? Funny how pallies like to complain about their only counter. My counter is getting beaten to a pulp, especially in 5v5 (where there are 6 pallies per druid). I would gladly have to worry only about being CCed.


At this point I'd rather slam my dick in a car door than argue with you. My original question was for everyone:

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P

And you're also the only healing class at this point to have these options while still being able to heal [arguably] as effectively as the other 3 healing classes.

But yeah you can tell me I'm QQIng, and just complaining, yeah yeah yeah...ok. Whatever floats your boat.

[Druds]

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P

No I dont.

[Molp]

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P


THEORETICALLY being the key word. Theoretically, a warrior can kill me during a stunlock without me being able to do anything. Theoretically a POM pyro mage can burst me down in 5 seconds flat.

A lot of things are possible in theory. The point is, you can do things to prevent the theoretical case from turning into reality. Rogues can stunlock from 100-0. So rogues are unstoppable killing machines that nobody can ever beat? No. Like Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan. But that plan goes out the window the second you get punched in the face.

Druids live with the constant risk of getting gibbed in 10 seconds when a 100 rage warrior catches them in caster form. That limits a lot of the theoretical stuff we can do. Can we do it? Sure. But it requires your cooperation and taking risks. But you don't remember the games where the druid tried the CC of doom and got melted by your warrior in the process. You only remember the times it worked and you lost. Selective memory is not the basis of an argument.

[Neajane]

Not sure what took so long to get short concise answers like that. PS my main's a druid <3

[Gunnolf]

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P


Neajane, molp has already explained this, the classes are different. That's it. There are trade offs to using a paladin or a druid.

-We have no offensive or defensive dispel. (Which every other healer has one or the other)

-In a straight up healing war, all other things equal, a paladin wins. Every time. (this is excluding water)

-A paladin has the highest healing per second of all healers. Nothing compares to holy light spam as far as burst healing. And please dont bring up NS-->HT because then i bring up bubble.

-A druid in his "healing" form is the squishiest of all healers, we have no passive damage reduction talents and low armor Our armor is less than a priest with inner fire up. (We'll see how natural perfection works out next patch).


These are trade offs, i don't think anyone can say much more than that.

[Druds]

Neajane, how come you have the lowest rating were paladins actualy is the strongest healer?

[Neajane]

Neajane, molp has already explained this, the classes are different. That's it. There are trade offs to using a paladin or a druid.
[quote]
-We have no offensive or defensive dispel. (Which every other healer has one or the other)

I guess decurse and abolish don't count? :O


-In a straight up healing war, all other things equal, a paladin wins. Every time. (this is excluding water)


Show me math? This a gear situational/gear dependant statement. Factor in innervate?


-A paladin has the highest healing per second of all healers. Nothing compares to holy light spam as far as burst healing. And please dont bring up NS-->HT because then i bring up bubble.


I'm not sure where you going now. We went from crowd control to healing somewhere in there. Oh well, at least you get this right.


-A druid in his "healing" form is the squishiest of all healers, we have no passive damage reduction talents and low armor Our armor is less than a priest with inner fire up. (We'll see how natural perfection works out next patch).


So we're assuming the priest is buffed but you're not. Ok.

But if the priest has inner fire, does that mean you still can't cast Barkskin? 20% isn't really significant I agree. No I really do.


These are trade offs, i don't think anyone can say much more than that.

Trade off on abilties.

But you have the only real form of repeatable limited only by DR CC, of the three healing classes.

In addition to that you have a seperate form of CC in entangling roots.

In addition to that you have feral charge and lolbash(which is bad for the opponent if it lands).

[Neajane]

Neajane, how come you have the lowest rating were paladins actualy is the strongest healer?


Yes, attack my ratings! Its entirely impossible for me to play on more than one team.

What's next, strength of EU vs. US? Battlegroups?

[Druds]

What's next, strength of EU vs. US? Battlegroups?

No we know that china will win -.-

Well tbh I was just wondering why :/

[Molp]

Decurse is not nearly as useful as dispel. How many 5v5 teams have no dispellers? A lot of 5v5 teams have no decursers and do just fine (double warr/double pally for example).

Straight up pallies outheal druids. Anyone who has ever raided knows as much. Also, many pallies get away with at least partial PvE healing gear. Druids don't.

Barkskin has a cooldown.

Yes, druids are the only healer with spammable CC. So? You are the only healer with a bubble. You are the only healer with plate armor. Are you advocating making all classes the same? That would be boring.

I will say again. In 5v5, druid - CC = waste of space. According to Blizzard, 5v5 is the bracket that matters. As long as there are 6 pallies per druid in highly rated 5v5s, nerfing the only thing that makes druids viable in that bracket is so completely out of the question it is not even worth debating.

[QUOTE=Gunnolf;15181]Neajane, molp has already explained this, the classes are different. That's it. There are trade offs to using a paladin or a druid.

I guess decurse and abolish don't count? :O



Show me math? This a gear situational/gear dependant statement. Factor in innervate?



I'm not sure where you going now. We went from crowd control to healing somewhere in there. Oh well, at least you get this right.



So we're assuming the priest is buffed but you're not. Ok.

But if the priest has inner fire, does that mean you still can't cast Barkskin? 20% isn't really significant I agree. No I really do.



Trade off on abilties.

But you have the only real form of repeatable limited only by DR CC, of the three healing classes.

In addition to that you have a seperate form of CC in entangling roots.

In addition to that you have feral charge and lolbash(which is bad for the opponent if it lands).

[Insight]

Yes, its absolutely retarded. A Druid can CC me longer (while healing) than a Mage. I'm surprised none of these people who know how to do so are 2200+, since you can basically lock out every Paladin in the game like that.

Trinket, bubble, fake heal when you see bear, los, ask teammate to cc / interrupt druid, if you just stand there trying to spam heals then you fucking had it coming, QQ. He'll lock you for a while anyway, even if you get support but you're making it sound like there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, which isnt true.

[Gunnolf]

I'm a little too lazy to quote everything like you did and format it so nicely, so you are just going to have to follow me :P

You know as well as i do that dispelling magic both offensively and defensively have much more utility than decurse and poison. Ironically we are least effected by the most crucial curse to decurse ----tongues. In addition blind will be physical next patch so that can not be removed. So decurse is useful against one curse and abolish is good against wound. As opposed to the unlimited amount of magic buffs and debuffs that can be removed.

About innervate, you get the ability that reduces mana cost by 50% for 15 seconds and the 100% crit on next spell ability. (The names have eluded me atm but you know what i mean). Innervate isn't an entire mana bar at 70, in fact it is a measly 3k mana in pvp gear. I would venture you could save more mana from illumination and the aforementioned abilities than innervate.

Barkskin every minute does not even compare to blessed resilience.

In addition, your theory craft of a druid completely locking you down is about equal to me saying that as soon as i pop out i get intercept stunned while you get JoJ on me and freedom on your warrior. Thats a gg right there.

[Neajane]

Decurse is not nearly as useful as dispel. How many 5v5 teams have no dispellers? A lot of 5v5 teams have no decursers and do just fine (double warr/double pally for example).

They're both useable in every bracket.



Straight up pallies outheal druids. Anyone who has ever raided knows as much. Also, many pallies get away with at least partial PvE healing gear. Druids don't.


With or without innervate? With that trinket you're sporting that's two full mana bars.


Barkskin has a cooldown.



Power word shield, earthshield ticks, divine shield all don't?


Yes, druids are the only healer with spammable CC. So? You are the only healer with a bubble. You are the only healer with plate armor. Are you advocating making all classes the same? That would be boring.


Once again you just compare CC to other class abilities which aren't CC. Yes, shamans should probably get some form of CC at the very least.



I will say again. In 5v5, druid - CC = waste of space. According to Blizzard, 5v5 is the bracket that matters. As long as there are 6 pallies per druid in highly rated 5v5s, nerfing the only thing that makes druids viable in that bracket is so completely out of the question it is not even worth debating.


Druids are unrepresented here, but for more-so because its easier to play paladins in 5's than 2's and 3's.

[Taffie]

I'm not at all interested in this conversation, but I thought I'd correct one thing:

With or without innervate? With that trinket you're sporting that's two full mana bars.

Druids stack MP5 for arena. While casting innervate only restores 100% spirit while casting, which, with little spirit (meaning only the trinket) is not two full mana bars.

Sorry, but not even close. :p

[Neajane]

I'm not at all interested in this conversation, but I thought I'd correct one thing:



Druids stack MP5 for arena. While casting innervate only restores 100% spirit while casting, which, with little spirit (meaning only the trinket) is not two full mana bars.

Sorry, but not even close. :p

I'm not that far off, with the Bangle. Though some druids use the prayer book.

Its no more an over estimation than what people claim Illumination is.

[Duraeas]

And sorry, but this is just false, 20 seconds isn't enough to kill me or you at the 2.3k+ level and you know it.

He isn't playing at the 2.3k+ point, so it's possible he may not know it.

oh yeah poor you mister paladin qqqqqqqq. big bad skilled druid can chain together about 8 different abilities and, with timing and luck, lock your qq'ing ass out.

meanwhile poor mister paladin just has to cast 2 instants (bof and joj) and sit there with his thumb up his ass until the druid needs to heal then *gasp* a 5 second instant ranged stun! yet somehow only the best pallies can manage to even use it at the right time!

who would have thought easy-mode would get less profitable once people who rolled skill classes learned to play?

yeah i said it.

/cast Divine Shield
/twiddle

Way to respond constructively.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I rolled a Paladin class because I wanted to play another Paladin. I have played one since day 1 of the original game. You're insinuating that because your class "takes more skill" than mine, it should be better than mine. That is one of the stupidest arguments I may have ever heard. I don't care how much skill my class takes, I'd still be able to play it well.

Moving it down to 21 points is as good as removing it from the game for all non-feral druids.

Awesome. If you need it for an escape instead of a spell lockout, then how about it becomes a base ability and the lockout is a high end Feral Talent.

Yes, Blizzard made that choice purely due to semantics and not at all as a balancing move. How much effort do you think it would take to change the wording?

I'd be willing to be that the wording and effect was designed with Travel Form in mind.

However, our ability to CC is one of the ways we have to mitigate damage (yes there are many, but this is also true for at least paladins(AC and bubble)

Neajane, for starters, I agree that Druids have certain aspects which make them Overpowered in Arenas, to deny this fact would be folly considering how many of us are present in the upper ratings of most 2v2s and 3v3s across all battlegroups...

...

However, our ability to CC is one of the ways we have to mitigate damage (yes there are many, but this is also true for at least paladins(AC and bubble)

...

Probably, but without it being effective, then Paladin teams will start crushing druids teams on a regular basis. As it is now, Pal/War and Pal/Warlock are just as effective in different ways than Dru/War and Dru/Warlock, and either matrix with either healer has the ability to win the fight.

Responding to the quoted phrases in order...

Druids are very, very well represented in the top ends of arena.

I agree that your CC is an important form of damage mitigation. I think the problem is that it can be used to shut down the other teams healer, and it's that second edge that's the point we're trying to make. AC doesn't help the Paladin though against spell damage.

Druid teams currently crush Paladin teams. It isn't even a real competition anymore, and this can be backed up by anyone who has tried to play a high end Paladin Warrior team.

I'd like to hear more about this 5 series and the strategies that Spoh was using, since he wasn't using cyclone. There is a lot to be learned from those 2.

My only decent heal is, at best, 2 second cast. A Druid can start a Cyclone and interrupt me before it eve finishes casting. There is a good chance it's 2.5 seconds (without Light's Grace up). Against another Druid that can heal instantly, Cyclone isn't that big a deal.


I'd like to mention that if your Warrior has a Rogue or a Warrior on him, he isn't going to catch a Druid, JoJ or not. He has to get on the other teams Rogue or Warrior, and the fact is that if this happens, yes the Druid does have the ability to sit back and Chain CC. I can DS through the first round, but I can't do that indefinitely.

Honestly, I think they should just remove drinking from arenas unless your team has a Mage. It's stupid. I don't see why Paladin mana efficiency is considered an asset and a balancing point when you can drink in arenas. Fixing that would fix a lot of problems.

[Molp]

I think the argument made by the pallies in this thread can be summarized in two sentences.

"Any advantage other classes have over me is overpowered.
Any advantage I have over other classes is irrelevant."

I see this argument made a lot, especially by pallies who have some of the biggest advantages of all classes and then complain about the things they don't have. It is amazing how pallies never complain that plate armor is OP against melee, for example. But CC being OP against healers, that gets their blood flowing.

A variation of the same argument is

"It is absolutely not fair that we are only average in 2v2 and not the strongest healer.
It is completely fair that we are by far the strongest healer in 5v5."

Keep complaining about the gimmick bracket while completely ignoring the bracket that Blizzard balances around, that gives the most points and that pallies happen to dominate. It adds credibility to your argument.

[buena]

This thread is ridiculous. The two strongest-by-far arena healing classes fighting over which one is more OP than the other.

You're both OP. Buff priests and shamans.

[Neajane]

This thread is ridiculous. The two strongest-by-far arena healing classes fighting over which one is more OP than the other.

You're both OP. Buff priests and shamans.

More like buff shaman, priests are fine, except for disc, which is looking like its getting some love.

[Molp]

This thread is ridiculous. The two strongest-by-far arena healing classes fighting over which one is more OP than the other.

You're both OP. Buff priests and shamans.

Agreed. Priests suck, especially in 3v3 and 5v5. Oh wait, they don't.

Druids are the strongest in 2v2 and weak in 5v5. Pallies are the strongest in 5v5 and average in 2v2. Priests are well-represented in all brackets. So, not much to complain about. Priests are also the only class that is viable as both DPS and healer in all three brackets. So if anything, priests are the measuring stick around which other classes should be balanced.

Resto shamans could use some help, though. And they are getting it.

[Neajane]

I think the argument made by the pallies in this thread can be summarized in two sentences.

"Any advantage other classes have over me is overpowered.
Any advantage I have over other classes is irrelevant."



The thread was about CC, druids have it, paladins, priests, and shamans have no reliable form of it.


I see this argument made a lot, especially by pallies who have some of the biggest advantages of all classes and then complain about the things they don't have. It is amazing how pallies never complain that plate armor is OP against melee, for example. But CC being OP against healers, that gets their blood flowing.


You're clinging to this pathetic armor class thing. Between druids in bear, shaman, and paladins there IS a 6000 armor difference, or do s2 glad's shaman have more than 10k armor, I'm not entirely sure. But seriously, Cyclone(crowd control), and ARMOR(lol) are not the same thing.

Especially since armor affects like 3.5/9 classes. Your CC affects 9/9 classes.



A variation of the same argument is

"It is absolutely not fair that we are only average in 2v2 and not the strongest healer.
It is completely fair that we are by far the strongest healer in 5v5."


Once again you have CC, other healers don't, that's the issue being discussed(By me at least).



Keep complaining about the gimmick bracket while completely ignoring the bracket that Blizzard balances around, that gives the most points and that pallies happen to dominate. It adds credibility to your argument.

Its impossible really to say what blizzard balances around nowadays, but I would say since people do get Gladiator's titles from 2's, and 3's. Yeah. They're significant.

Are you saying all the people who got Glad's in 2's are just gimmicky talent-less players?

[buena]

I play both a priest and a druid. There is almost no composition and matchup where the priest would be the stronger character.

Other healers underestimate how much of a problem it is to be the squishiest class against melee, and have no escape method from them. No bof. No cleanse. No abolish. No travel form. No bubble. No bop. No 115% bear form with feral charge. Not even JoJ-and-kite-with-runspeed-enchant. Just stand there limping around very slowly while you hope your team can do something before you die. Tell the truth now, which of you has ever watched the crippling poison debuff or hamstring timer like a hawk to see if there was a chance you might actually get to play?

Priests seem like hard targets because they are forced to stack resilience to the cap and stamina in other slot to combat this inherent glaring disadvantage. Other abilities suffer. My full s2 priest has 300 less +healing than my druid, less than half the mp5, and worse survivability even so.

[Neajane]

I play both a priest and a druid. There is almost no composition and matchup where the priest would be the stronger character.

Other healers underestimate how much of a problem it is to be the squishiest class against melee, and have no escape method from them. No bof. No cleanse. No abolish. No travel form. No bubble. No bop. No 115% bear form with feral charge. Not even JoJ-and-kite-with-runspeed-enchant. Just stand there limping around very slowly while you hope your team can do something before you die. Tell the truth now, which of you has ever watched the crippling poison debuff or hamstring timer like a hawk to see if there was a chance you might actually get to play?

Priests seem like hard targets because they are forced to stack resilience to the cap and stamina in other slot to combat this inherent glaring disadvantage. Other abilities suffer. My full s2 priest has 300 less +healing than my druid, less than half the mp5, and worse survivability even so.

Don't worry, you're getting chastise, all you have to do is re-roll.

[Molp]

Yes the thread is about CC. The point we have been trying to explain to you for the last six pages is THAT YOU CANNOT LOOK AT CC IN ISOLATION. You can only look at WHAT A CLASS BRINGS TO THE TABLE AS A WHOLE.

Of course, if your measuring stick is CC and CC only then druids are OP and paladins are underpowered. Duh. It is also completely meaningless.

Say they gave druids AoE cyclone but reduced the HP of all druids to 1. According to your standards, that would be a buff, since all that matters is CC.

Facts without context are meaningless. Facts without context are meaningless.

I am done with this thread.

P.S.: 2v2 being a gimmick bracket does not imply it being skilless. It implies that it will never be perfectly balanced since there are too many hard counters and too few classes to bring to have counters to said counters.

[Molp]

In 5v5?

How many 2345 teams run a druid instead of a priest (or pally)?

I play both a priest and a druid. There is almost no composition and matchup where the priest would be the stronger character.

[Duraeas]

I think the argument made by the pallies in this thread can be summarized in two sentences.

"Any advantage other classes have over me is overpowered.
Any advantage I have over other classes is irrelevant."

I see this argument made a lot, especially by pallies who have some of the biggest advantages of all classes and then complain about the things they don't have. It is amazing how pallies never complain that plate armor is OP against melee, for example. But CC being OP against healers, that gets their blood flowing.

A variation of the same argument is

"It is absolutely not fair that we are only average in 2v2 and not the strongest healer.
It is completely fair that we are by far the strongest healer in 5v5."

Keep complaining about the gimmick bracket while completely ignoring the bracket that Blizzard balances around, that gives the most points and that pallies happen to dominate. It adds credibility to your argument.

I never said that Druids shouldn't be brought up to par in 5v5. Please point out for me where either of us stated that. What we're stating is that in 2v2 and 3v3, the ability to completely shut down the other teams healer is overpowered if you can competently heal while you do it.

I think Druids should be buffed in 5v5. I think Paladin should be buffed in 2s and 3s.

Whats wrong with that?

[Molp]

I never said that Druids shouldn't be brought up to par in 5v5. Please point out for me where either of us stated that. What we're stating is that in 2v2 and 3v3, the ability to completely shut down the other teams healer is overpowered if you can competently heal while you do it.

I think Druids should be buffed in 5v5. I think Paladin should be buffed in 2s and 3s.

Whats wrong with that?

Ok, one last response.

Nothing wrong with equalizing classes across brackets. But if that is your goal, nerfing CC is the last thing to consider.

A good druid can win in 2v2 without spamming CC. Against many matchups, excessive CC is actually a bad idea (to quote Hafu, spamming cyclone puts it on DR for when you really need it).
A druid in 5v5 is a waste of space without spamming CC.

See where the problem lies? I use CC about 10 times as much in 5v5 as I do in 2v2. Any nerf to CC would destroy my 5v5 viability. Completely, utterly destroy it.

People are too focused on 2v2. Like the "druids are better than priests" comment. The real argument is "druids are better than priests in 2v2". Leaving out that last subtle piece paints a completely incorrect picture.

[Rhaegyn]

I think Druids should be buffed in 5v5. I think Paladin should be buffed in 2s and 3s.

Whats wrong with that?

I'm sure the majority agree with you on that, but it isn't easy to find a way to buff a class in one bracket, but leave them unchanged in other brackets and PvE.

[buena]

I play both a priest and druid in every bracket. And yes the druid feels stronger in 5v5.

Traditionally people brought priests to 5v5 for mana burn and dispel, but at this point strategy has advanced enough that high rating opponents are not going to allow mana burn chains. And they don't have to, because it is a fully interruptable spell on a class with no escape abilities. One counter is to simply target the priest first, which is quite common anyway since it is the easiest kill target for melee. Another is to put any 1 dps on the priest, which is enough to fully prevent mana burning. And the most popular counter for other endurance teams is simply to drain the priest's mana before he can drain yours, using spells (viper sting and mana drain) with much more arena-viable mechanics.

Priests still have their other calling card: dispel. In some cases it may still be worth bringing a priest for dispel. But you are giving up an awful lot for this one ability. A druid has better crowd control, more healing potential, better survivability, and an easier time disengaging to drink.

I feel that priests have some rather obvious strengths, which made them popular in the past, but also some very glaring weaknesses and easy counters. The more people learn how to exploit their weaknesses, the weaker they will become relative to other healers. And this process is already starting, as you see more and more druids and less and less priests at the top of ALL brackets.

My priest is going shadow for s3.

[Duraeas]

Ok, one last response.

Nothing wrong with equalizing classes across brackets. But if that is your goal, nerfing CC is the last thing to consider.

A good druid can win in 2v2 without spamming CC. Against many matchups, excessive CC is actually a bad idea (to quote Hafu, spamming cyclone puts it on DR for when you really need it).
A druid in 5v5 is a waste of space without spamming CC.

See where the problem lies? I use CC about 10 times as much in 5v5 as I do in 2v2. Any nerf to CC would destroy my 5v5 viability. Completely, utterly destroy it.

People are too focused on 2v2. Like the "druids are better than priests" comment. The real argument is "druids are better than priests in 2v2". Leaving out that last subtle piece paints a completely incorrect picture.

I don't care at all about 2v2s actually. I think it's a stupid bracket and anyone who considers themselves amazing at PvP because of a good 2v2 needs to understand that it is not a very dynamic bracket, and depends strongly on class makeup.

In 3v3 though, a Druid CAN afford to chain CC a Paladin.

Rhaegyn I used to play on Bleeding Hollow. My Paladin was named Oradol, in Elite Chaos.

[Molp]

Fair enough. Lets postpone the nerf druid debate until the numbers back up your assesment. Nerfing a class that is currently still last in 5v5 representation and buffing a class that is still a strong third based on what you think the meta game will evolve to going forward is not a good idea. Once we actually get to the point where druids start replacing priests and pallies in masses in 5v5 then we can discuss what needs to be done.

So far, druids are still dead last, despite people proclaiming their impending rise to power for months.

I play both a priest and druid in every bracket. And yes the druid feels stronger in 5v5.

Traditionally people brought priests to 5v5 for mana burn and dispel, but at this point strategy has advanced enough that high rating opponents are not going to allow mana burn chains. And they don't have to, because it is a fully interruptable spell on a class with no escape abilities. One counter is to simply target the priest first, which is quite common anyway since it is the easiest kill target for melee. Another is to put any 1 dps on the priest, which is enough to fully prevent mana burning. And the most popular counter for other endurance teams is simply to drain the priest's mana before he can drain yours, using spells (viper sting and mana drain) with much more arena-viable mechanics.

Priests still have their other calling card: dispel. In some cases it may still be worth bringing a priest for dispel. But you are giving up an awful lot for this one ability. A druid has better crowd control, more healing potential, better survivability, and an easier time disengaging to drink.

I feel that priests have some rather obvious strengths, which made them popular in the past, but also some very glaring weaknesses and easy counters. The more people learn how to exploit their weaknesses, the weaker they will become relative to other healers. And this process is already starting, as you see more and more druids and less and less priests at the top of ALL brackets.

My priest is going shadow for s3.

[buena]

Remember when the top players and people who played multiple classes in PvP said "warlocks are overpowered?" But others pointed to the fact that they were still underrepresented in the game as a whole, and in every arena bracket - particularly 5v5?

Rhetorical question.

[Gunnolf]

Remember when the top players and people who played multiple classes in PvP said "warlocks are overpowered?" But others pointed to the fact that they were still underrepresented in the game as a whole, and in every arena bracket - particularly 5v5?

Rhetorical question.

Except they were not underrepresented in EVERY bracket, they were dominating 2s and 3s and middle of the pack in 5s. Druids are dead last in 5s by far more a margin than they are ahead of any other healer in 2s and 3s.

[buena]

Except they were not underrepresented in EVERY bracket, they were dominating 2s and 3s and middle of the pack in 5s. Druids are dead last in 5s by far more a margin than they are ahead of any other healer in 2s and 3s.

This description sounds like the middle of the shift, which is probably when you started paying attention. At 60 and through the start of BC, warlock was the least played non-healer class by a substantial margin. In the early phases of season one, they were middle of the pack in 2v2, underrepresented in 3v3, and dead last in 5v5 representation. Common opinion was that they were not a viable 5v5 class.

Sound familiar at all?

[Gunnolf]

This description sounds like the middle of the shift, which is probably when you started paying attention. At 60 and through the start of BC, warlock was the least played non-healer class by a substantial margin. In the early phases of season one, they were middle of the pack in 2v2, underrepresented in 3v3, and dead last in 5v5 representation. Common opinion was that they were not a viable 5v5 class.

Sound familiar at all?

No, because people knew they were overpowered at 60 too.

When S1 started warlocks were a great 2s and 3s class, i dont believe that they were ever underrepresented in those brackets, try to find caster's first stats if you can.

Secondly, who cares about total population? does that have anything to do with the actual relative power of those respective classes?

[Gunnolf]

Found it, warlocks 6/9 in 5v5, 4/9 in 3v3 and 1/9 in 2v2

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=102907730&postId=1027004920&sid=1

This is may 2007 and S1 started in april i believe.

[Neajane]

No, because people knew they were overpowered at 60 too.

When S1 started warlocks were a great 2s and 3s class, i dont believe that they were ever underrepresented in those brackets, try to find caster's first stats if you can.

Secondly, who cares about total population? does that have anything to do with the actual relative power of those respective classes?

Warlocks were rogue dog food pre-TBC. Did you even PvP pre-TBC?

[Molp]

This description sounds like the middle of the shift, which is probably when you started paying attention. At 60 and through the start of BC, warlock was the least played non-healer class by a substantial margin. In the early phases of season one, they were middle of the pack in 2v2, underrepresented in 3v3, and dead last in 5v5 representation. Common opinion was that they were not a viable 5v5 class.

Sound familiar at all?

Now all we are missing is hard proof that this has anything to do with the druid situation. You basically want to preemtively nerf the least represented class because you feel that they will magically become overpowered in the future. You have given no argument of what will make druids OP (other than saying that priests will suck, which also requires more proof) in 5v5.

What if you are wrong? Then you just nerfed the least played class even more. Lets see the hard evidence first. People have been huffing and puffing for months about how druids will dominate due to the rise of gib teams. Guess what? Months later, 2345 is still the dominant lineup and druids are still dead last. And 90% of the people who make claims of druid dominance have no druid on their 5v5. I know, I check every time. Like Neajane who posted just before me. 8 players on his team, zero druids.

[Gunnolf]

Warlocks were rogue dog food pre-TBC. Did you even PvP pre-TBC?


Yes i did, i played when you couldnt trinket out of deathcoil, there was no clos, no deadly throw. People like grim had to blow everything to kill a SL warlock...sounds familiar.

[buena]

Think for a moment that someone might post a realistic and fair-minded perspective on PvP balance, rather than one of simple self-promotion of their class or their team's lineup. Sound farfetched? Then consider that you yourself may be guilty of self-promoting, and you are just assuming that everyone else is doing the same as you.

But Blizzard doesn't read these forums. They barely even read their own. Self-promoting here is obviously pointless. No one you could possibly convince here has any power to change your or your team's status.

Additionally, what do you do about a player who has 5 classes and 15 teams that he plays competitively? Which one is he promoting when he posts? I have exactly that, and my interest in any debate is as a strategy buff and lover of competitive and balanced PvP. The reason I am posting that your class is overpowered is because in my - modesty aside - rather expert opinion, it is. I would much prefer that you argue this strategic point on a level of strategy, rather than a level of self-interest, such as "you don't have a druid on this team" and the like.

What makes a druid the worst 5v5 healer in your opinion? Lack of single-target throughput? Inability to dispel magic effects? Vulnerablilty of hot spells to purge? How are these perceived weaknesses enough to cancel out their strengths of mobility, crowd control, and instant cast heals? It is not enough to say they are under-represented, because power is only one of many factors affecting representation.

[Gunnolf]

Think for a moment that someone might post a realistic and fair-minded perspective on PvP balance, rather than one of simple self-promotion of their class or their team's lineup. Sound farfetched? Then consider that you yourself may be guilty of self-promoting, and you are just assuming that everyone else is doing the same as you.

But Blizzard doesn't read these forums. They barely even read their own. Self-promoting here is obviously pointless. No one you could possibly convince here has any power to change your or your team's status.

Additionally, what do you do about a player who has 5 classes and 15 teams that he plays competitively? Which one is he promoting when he posts? I have exactly that, and my interest in any debate is as a strategy buff and lover of competitive and balanced PvP. The reason I am posting that your class is overpowered is because in my - modesty aside - rather expert opinion, it is. I would much prefer that you argue this strategic point on a level of strategy, rather than a level of self-interest, such as "you don't have a druid on this team" and the like.

What makes a druid the worst 5v5 healer in your opinion? Lack of single-target throughput? Inability to dispel magic effects? Vulnerablilty of hot spells to purge? How are these perceived weaknesses enough to cancel out their strengths of mobility, crowd control, and instant cast heals? It is not enough to say they are under-represented, because power is only one of many factors affecting representation.

First of all, i'm sure molp and i, the people that continue to reply in this thread are fully aware that no one from blizzard reads these forums. So i can just as easily turn it around and say since we have nothing to gain, we are speaking from the heart.

I also play multiple classes, i have arena'd on a spriest, druid, rogue, hunter, warrior, warlock, and mage. In addition to trying the remaining classes on the ptr at least.

I have more experience with rogues, mages and druids.
Druids are so strong in 2s because they can heal through 1 or 2 people's damage with hots while staying mobile and being able to los everything.
This is exactly why druids are weak in 5v5--->hot healing. Which is not enough to heal through mortal strike and 2 other dps by themselves like say, a paladin can. And it is not possible to kite/los 3 or 4 dps classes.

Druids main healing on gib teams are different, they rely on killing someone on the other team extremely quickly or forcing the opposing focus to play so defensively that they might as well not be there. This is very hit or miss though, and is usually why you see many 4 dps teams in the top 20-30 but not in the top 5.

No magic dispel, very limited support/buffs for other classes. If a druid is running with 2 healers, the other one will get sheeped/feared leaving the druid with just hots to heal through everything. Motw is the worst buff given by any class. The only in combat/support buffs the druid gives are decurse and abolish poison. Mages can handle decurse just as well.

-Shamans bring offensive dispels, bloodlust, anti-cc totems, and windfury for warriors.
-Paladins bring their blessings which include melee immunity, snare immunity, the best scaling buff in the game and the best mana regen buff in the game. Only one can be active on each person but their upside is unmatched.
-Priests bring mass dispel, mana burn, offensive and defensive dispels and fort+shadow protection.

-Druids bring motw, cyclone, and hots, which are their heals. And for how good cyclone is, it is what most non-gib 5v5 druids are doing. Cycling cyclones and throwing hots every so often. People in this thread are complaining about the one thing that makes druids barely viable in 5s.

Lastly, relative power is a big deal when talking about representation in the top teams. To say, "Well druids are the lowest pop class so they should be the lowest represented in the top 20 of every bg," Is not very valid because any of those top teams will have access to the best of the best druids. Look at Sereianna or whatever his name is, he does 2s and 3s with quite possibly the best druid in the world, yet he doesnt use him in 5s. This speaks for itself.

[buena]

There is only one healer that can single handedly keep someone up through MS + 2 or 3 more DPS. A paladin, and only when it is sitting in a bubble. That is why paladins always have, still do, and will continute to have main healing roles on most 5v5 teams for the forseeable future.

However, I think you are selling druids' utility in this situation short. Admitting the superiority of a bubbled pally, the other options - including an unbubbled pally - aren't any better than a druid and possibly aren't as good.

Priests' healing strengths - prom, renew, shields - are better for prevention and for healing spread damage. Their extreme vulnerablity to melee forces them to gear and spec for pure survivability, gimping not only their healing throughput but especially their mana persistance. The only real advantage of a priest in this situation is that his dispel can keep other healers out of CC.

Shamans have better throughput than priests but inferior instant heals, leaving them vulnerable to interrupts and tongues. Their real advantage in a spike healing situation is that bloodlust and tremor totem help keep other healers up and healing faster. But both of these advantages have clear counters and they have no defensive dispels whatsoever.

An unbubbled paladin is the most vulnerable healer there is to interrupts and tongues, with an instant healing potential close to zero. In a spike healing situation against a good team they have the best throughput, but they are also the likeliest to get out no healing whatsoever due to CC and interrupts. Their 1-effect defensive dispel is versatile but often overwhelmed by the speed of dps classes stacking effects.

Druids actually have quite a high throughput with healing touch if talented for it, but no one does this. Why? Because the hots really are more effective, even in a spike healing situation. The great advantage of druids here is their superior instant casts. Not only do they have vastly superior hots, they actually have the best instant spike heals as well with NS + switftmend. Additionally, they cannot effectively be polymorphed and their unrivaled battlefield mobility allows them to better dodge fear and silences while maintaining healing throughput. It simply is not possible to prevent a competent druid from healing your spike target - you can only hope to spike through his healing. This is not true of any other healer. Finally, the ability to remove a DPSer from a distance and thereby reduce the spike is unequaled amongst healers. Especially in combination with roots, where it is particularly effective at removing the most important one - the one putting MS up.

[Molp]

What makes a druid the worst 5v5 healer in your opinion? Lack of single-target throughput? Inability to dispel magic effects? Vulnerablilty of hot spells to purge? How are these perceived weaknesses enough to cancel out their strengths of mobility, crowd control, and instant cast heals? It is not enough to say they are under-represented, because power is only one of many factors affecting representation.

It does not matter what I think. The burden of proof is not on me. It matters what the top teams think. And the top teams have, by and large, decided that druids are lacking. We can theorycraft until the tauren come home why some class is strong and some class is weak, but it is all for naught. People have voted with their feet. What matters are the following facts.

- The vast majority of top 5v5 teams have warriors.
- The vast majority of top 5v5 teams have paladins.
- The vast majority of top 5v5 teams have priests.
- The vast majority of top 5v5 teams do not have druids.

Anything past that is most likely biased and self-serving. How many people want their own class nerfed? Because of that, Blizzard is generally ignoring our opinions, and rightfully so. But they cannot, and should not, ignore the facts above. They are unbiased. They are facts.

You can argue against the facts, and people have. Most of it is, again, biased and self-serving spin and should be ignored. Top teams have voted with their feet. And as long as they continue to vote the same way, the outcome will not change. Serennia made a post on how strong druids are with the instant shifting bug fix. But still not strong enough for him to invite his 2v2/3v3 partner to his 5v5. So it is, again, all for naught.

You took it a step further and proposed balance changes based on what you think will happen in the future. It is easy to see how that could lead to desaster. It is hard enough to balance this game with all facts known. Trying to balance the game on facts you think will materialize at some point is outright impossible.

[buena]

Everyone likes to think that they are beating the odds to succeed. It's a comforting thought. I'm not immune; of course I tell myself that if I would focus on one class instead of playing them all, that if I would ditch my RL friends and move to a more PvP active server, then I could compete for top in the world and cash prizes. This may or may not be true - I'll likely never test it and find out.

But you're bordering into downright obsessional in your attachment to your comforting thought. Is it seriously so important to you to maintain your image of being the underdog that you can't even TALK about strategy? That you have to declare strategic thinking to not matter at all, because it might threaten your illusion?

The following are factors which influence successful team compositions:
- Power of classes.
- Synergy between classes for a particular playstyle.
- Most commonly faced opponents.
- Overall distribution of players by class. More commonly played classes should be more heavily represented.
- Ease of play of classes. Difficult-to-learn classes will have fewer available players good enough for top teams.
- Newness factor of classes. Classes more recently and heavily changed will have a lower overall level of mastery.
- Past power of classes. The best players rolled classes that were strong in the past and may choose not to reroll or may still be leveling.
- Past synergy of classes. The best players got used to playing in groups that were strongest in the past, and developed teamwork with them.


The list could continue, but you get the idea: using currently successful team compositions as a metric for class power is incomplete at best. Especially if you are choosing only one division and defining "top teams" nebulously to suit your biases. Top teams can be dogmatic with adjusting to new factors just like everyone else. Sometimes more so because of the importance and difficulty of having built up practice and teamwork with a certain set of players.

I could cite innumerable examples where a new, superior technology is slow to be adopted even by those at the top of the ladder. Especially by those at the top of the ladder. I could give you the B-school curve of early adopters, late adopters, early majority, etc, that every new trend follows. But I think I have already done more than enough to prove a very simple and, really, self-evident point: that looking at rosters in BG9 is not a substitute for actually using your own brain.

[buena]

Here would be a much better metric for measuring class power: Look at all the teams in gladiator range, in all divisions, 6 months ago, and measure the classes represented. Do the same for 3 months ago, one month ago, and now.

Track the trend. The ascendent classes are the powerful ones, the increasingly less represented ones the weak ones. If the game stayed in its current state (ie no major nerfs or buffs), the upwards trending classes would eventually come to dominate. Because they are the most powerful in the current mechanics.

I have not done this and do not know what the results would be. But if you cared to do it, I would be much more convinced by that data than by ill-defined perceptions of what the top teams are currently running.

[Neajane]

Here's a top ten gib type team that would be top 5, on any other battlegroup.

http://wowarmory.com/team-info.xml?r=Tichondrius&ts=5&t=Big+Naturals&select=Big+Naturals&fl=1

[Unraveller]

Buena:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_E99rsZgp6TE/Rx9Ovrwf5gI/AAAAAAAAACk/gWOS6TpWjwg/s1600-h/eu5v5_2007-10-24.png

I'll skip the rhetoric and go straight to the metrics:

5v5 Healing Class composition:
92% Paladins
75% Priests
55% Shamans
19% Druids
---

Or, a little more simply:

There are 5 paladins for every druid in 5v5 above 2200. It is likely that EVERY team you play will contain a Paladin, while 2 of the ten teams you play will have a druid.

The results for 2v2 and 3v3 imply that their are SOME druids who know how to play, so where are they?

Leave the rhetoric, answer the numbers.

[Gunnolf]

Here would be a much better metric for measuring class power: Look at all the teams in gladiator range, in all divisions, 6 months ago, and measure the classes represented. Do the same for 3 months ago, one month ago, and now.

Track the trend. The ascendent classes are the powerful ones, the increasingly less represented ones the weak ones. If the game stayed in its current state (ie no major nerfs or buffs), the upwards trending classes would eventually come to dominate. Because they are the most powerful in the current mechanics.

I have not done this and do not know what the results would be. But if you cared to do it, I would be much more convinced by that data than by ill-defined perceptions of what the top teams are currently running.

Except there were significant buffs, the lifebloom change and arena water. Before that we were even bad in 2v2.

[Molp]

Eh, I don't think my class is holding back my 5v5 ratings. The fact that we play 10 games a week with fluctuating lineups and two alts is. So I don't need to be comforted. I don't really have time to play much these days anyway.

And I am tracking the trends. Druids have been dead last in 5v5 each and every week since arena came out. There has been no significant upward trend that suggests druids are on the verge of breaking out. This is decidedly different from 2v2.

As I said, the burden of proof is not on me. I have numbers on my side. You are making a wild claim, namely that druid representation in 5v5 will all of a sudden skyrocket. But you have provided no real evidence and instead tried to turn the tables on those siding with the current, actual, observable facts. That is not how things work. If you want the class nerfed based on imaginary facts you better be having some good imagination.

[buena]

I said that druids are overpowered. You chose the measurement of druid representation in nebulously defined "top 5v5 teams" yourself. You chose it because it is their weakest bracket and by picking it and defining top teams however you like, you are best able to convince yourself that your class is in fact underdogs in arenas and you are succeeding despite long odds.

Despite this straw man you have set up, I will even take up that call. I argue that class power is not the only determinant of top - however you are defining top - 5v5 teams. I gave a list of 7 other factors which also influence team composition, and the list is not complete by any means.

However you still insist on using only one, flawed, metric - class composition of "top 5v5 teams" - to measure class power. I suggested a better and more complete and logical metric involving trends in all brackets, but you just went right back to "top 5v5 teams right now." Why? Because it is the data set that you found that most supports your need to feel an underdog. If you played a mage, undoubtedly you would refuse to count any division other than 2v2, and you would focus on the trends because mages are weak and getting weaker in that bracket. You are cherry-picking data to suit your bias.

So there's a tangent of me getting offended by unscientific thinking. I like science and will stick up for it! But to move back to the main issue: even in your chosen disadvantaged ground of top team 5v5, I beleive the druid class is a much stronger healer than it is currently getting credit for.

As more druid players and their teammates get used to their relatively recently added strengths, and more hardcore PvPers reroll to them (I beleive Tyveris is leveling one atm), their success can only increase. This is due to the class mechanics of having the best instant heals, the best battlefield mobility, the best crowd control, and the best (debatable with paladins) resistance to control. These strengths, while more readily apparent in smaller brackets, are still very relevant in 5v5 at high levels of strategy.

A plea for anyone to debate these strategic points on the basis of strategy, without mentioning the compositions of current top 5v5 teams. I have just spent multiple posts explaining why those compositions are a starting point for debate, not an ending point.

[Neajane]

[Inc random post about how druids are the least represented in 5v5]

[Gunnolf]

Fine, druids are on an upward trend from the beginning of the season till now in 2s and 3s.

They have not moved in 5v5. Guess where blizzard is supposed to balance arenas around? 5s.

No one is saying that we are being the "underdog" in succeeding in 2s and 3s.

[Molp]

TLDR version: If you want druids nerfed, invite them to your 5v5. Complaining about a class you did not deem good enough for your team impresses nobody. Especially not the people balancing this game.



I chose 5v5 because it suits my argument and because nerfing ANY class that is dead last in ANY bracket is nonsense. This applies equally to all classes (my alt is a mage, who are in the opposite boat as druids).

I don't care about other metrics. Why? Because they are self-serving theorycraft. I have seen paladins theorycraft how they are completely useless in highly rated 5v5. Clearly that is not the case.

If the other metrics hold any value, they will sooner or later show in representation. Simple mental exercise. Imagine moonfire did 1000000 damage. Tomorrow, all top teams would have druids, and probably nothing but druids. You are trying to get ahead of the trend by balancing around metrics that show themselves before representation, since representation always lags behind. That is a noble goal, and also completely unrealistic because YOU CANNOT PREDICT THE FUTURE.

I remember, when gib teams rose to power people predicted that by the end of season 2 druids would be highly represented in top 5v5, because people looked at the success of a few gib teams and deduced that the ladder at the end of S2 would be nothing but druid based gib teams. They were wrong. What gives you such supreme confidence in your predictions? And do you think Blizzard will really risk it? I will make a bold prediction here, they won't. Why? Because the last thing you want to do when you are running the most financially successful game in history is mess it up by taking wild bets. They are conservative. They take things slow. Now you want them to change to fix things BEFORE they even become a problem. Ask yourself, is that anywhere near realistic?

This has nothing to do with the strength of druids in 2v2. I have said many times, a nerf to CC is a much bigger hit to 5v5 than 2v2. As such it is a non-starter from the get-go, because ANYTHING THAT NERFS THE LEAST REPRESENTED CLASS IN THAT BRACKET IS UTTER STUPIDITY FROM A BALANCE PERSPECTIVE. If you have a change that equally nerfs 2v2 and buffs 5v5, lets hear it. I have seen none so far. It is a hard problem to solve.

P.S.: I will not theorycraft about what could be workable with druids and what could not. It is a waste of time. Top players are like mice. They are good at sniffing out the cheese. If druids were the cheese, they would notice. Look at Pandemic. Hunters and rogues turned out to be poor choices for 5v5, and voila, they kicked them and put in an elemental shaman. I have no doubt that they would do the same with a druid if they deemed it advantageous. So I don't have to theorycraft. I can just look at people who are better at this game than you and me and see what they are doing. Actions speak louder than words.

P.P.S.: I know what works with a druid. I play one, in a lineup that works relatively well. I also know what does not work, but due to what I said above, discussing it is moot.

I said that druids are overpowered. You chose the measurement of druid representation in nebulously defined "top 5v5 teams" yourself. You chose it because it is their weakest bracket and by picking it and defining top teams however you like, you are best able to convince yourself that your class is in fact underdogs in arenas and you are succeeding despite long odds.

Despite this straw man you have set up, I will even take up that call. I argue that class power is not the only determinant of top - however you are defining top - 5v5 teams. I gave a list of 7 other factors which also influence team composition, and the list is not complete by any means.

However you still insist on using only one, flawed, metric - class composition of "top 5v5 teams" - to measure class power. I suggested a better and more complete and logical metric involving trends in all brackets, but you just went right back to "top 5v5 teams right now." Why? Because it is the data set that you found that most supports your need to feel an underdog. If you played a mage, undoubtedly you would refuse to count any division other than 2v2, and you would focus on the trends because mages are weak and getting weaker in that bracket. You are cherry-picking data to suit your bias.

So there's a tangent of me getting offended by unscientific thinking. I like science and will stick up for it! But to move back to the main issue: even in your chosen disadvantaged ground of top team 5v5, I beleive the druid class is a much stronger healer than it is currently getting credit for.

As more druid players and their teammates get used to their relatively recently added strengths, and more hardcore PvPers reroll to them (I beleive Tyveris is leveling one atm), their success can only increase. This is due to the class mechanics of having the best instant heals, the best battlefield mobility, the best crowd control, and the best (debatable with paladins) resistance to control. These strengths, while more readily apparent in smaller brackets, are still very relevant in 5v5 at high levels of strategy.

A plea for anyone to debate these strategic points on the basis of strategy, without mentioning the compositions of current top 5v5 teams. I have just spent multiple posts explaining why those compositions are a starting point for debate, not an ending point.

[Duraeas]

TLDR version: If you want druids nerfed, invite them to your 5v5. Complaining about a class you did not deem good enough for your team impresses nobody. Especially not the people balancing this game.



I chose 5v5 because it suits my argument and because nerfing ANY class that is dead last in ANY bracket is nonsense. This applies equally to all classes (my alt is a mage, who are in the opposite boat as druids).

I don't care about other metrics. Why? Because they are self-serving theorycraft. I have seen paladins theorycraft how they are completely useless in highly rated 5v5. Clearly that is not the case.

If the other metrics hold any value, they will sooner or later show in representation. Simple mental exercise. Imagine moonfire did 1000000 damage. Tomorrow, all top teams would have druids, and probably nothing but druids. You are trying to get ahead of the trend by balancing around metrics that show themselves before representation, since representation always lags behind. That is a noble goal, and also completely unrealistic because YOU CANNOT PREDICT THE FUTURE.

I remember, when gib teams rose to power people predicted that by the end of season 2 druids would be highly represented in top 5v5, because people looked at the success of a few gib teams and deduced that the ladder at the end of S2 would be nothing but druid based gib teams. They were wrong. What gives you such supreme confidence in your predictions? And do you think Blizzard will really risk it? I will make a bold prediction here, they won't. Why? Because the last thing you want to do when you are running the most financially successful game in history is mess it up by taking wild bets. They are conservative. They take things slow. Now you want them to change to fix things BEFORE they even become a problem. Ask yourself, is that anywhere near realistic?

This has nothing to do with the strength of druids in 2v2. I have said many times, a nerf to CC is a much bigger hit to 5v5 than 2v2. As such it is a non-starter from the get-go, because ANYTHING THAT NERFS THE LEAST REPRESENTED CLASS IN THAT BRACKET IS UTTER STUPIDITY FROM A BALANCE PERSPECTIVE. If you have a change that equally nerfs 2v2 and buffs 5v5, lets hear it. I have seen none so far. It is a hard problem to solve.

P.S.: I will not theorycraft about what could be workable with druids and what could not. It is a waste of time. Top players are like mice. They are good at sniffing out the cheese. If druids were the cheese, they would notice. Look at Pandemic. Hunters and rogues turned out to be poor choices for 5v5, and voila, they kicked them and put in an elemental shaman. I have no doubt that they would do the same with a druid if they deemed it advantageous. So I don't have to theorycraft. I can just look at people who are better at this game than you and me and see what they are doing. Actions speak louder than words.

P.P.S.: I know what works with a druid. I play one, in a lineup that works relatively well. I also know what does not work, but due to what I said above, discussing it is moot.

I agree entirely with Buena. You are not in any way refuting his points regarding the class. Anyone can get a statistic to prove anything, it doesn't mean that their argument is relevant. I would like to point out that your 5v5 rating is higher than your 3v3 and equal to your 2v2. Does this mean Druids' best or second best bracket is 5v5? Of course not.

The reason Druids are underrepresented in 5s is because of the teams they fit in. Paladins fit easily, and perhaps necessarily, in 2-healer teams. Druids fit in good gib teams extremely well.

http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.xml?r=Blackwing+Lair&ts=5&t=George+W+Bush&select=George+W+Bush&fl=1

We played them 8 times and split games. I would have preferred they had any healer but a Druid. The fact is that less people are willing to put together and learn teams like this, and so people choose Druids less frequently. Representation often has very little to do with viability. People last season were upset with how gimp Rogues are. They didn't realize how well Mace-specced Rogues completely dominate 4-DPS teams.

I would like to see you defend the class based on strategy.

[Gunnolf]

I really am done posting here, you guys are saying theorycraft>Statistics while Molp and i are trying to explain that even with your theorycraft, the statistics prove otherwise.

If druids and druid based teams were really overpowered, don't you think people would be scrambling to put them together constantly?

Whether something is overpowered or not is an opinion, you can have yours.

Mine is that druids are not overpowered and may even be weak in 5v5, the bracket that blizzard balances arena around (supposedly). The statistics prove this both in flat numbers and normalized for population.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_E99rsZgp6TE/Rx9Ovrwf5gI/AAAAAAAAACk/gWOS6TpWjwg/s1600-h/eu5v5_2007-10-24.png&sid=1

However, the druid style of healing and the druid's strength-mobility is overpowered in 2v2 when combined with arena water.

How do you balance this? You tell me.

[Molp]

Representation often has very little to do with viability.

Basically, all these walls of text can be condensed to stating that we disagree on this point.

I believe that viability is a leading indicator for representation. Meaning that anything that is viable will eventually be represented. You claim that a viable class can be eternally underrepresented due to outside factors.

The problem is, reasonable people can disagree on the outside factors. And most of us are not even reasonable. We are biased towards the class we are playing. And worse than that, we all suffer from selective memory. You remember all the times your partner died because you got chain cycloned. I remember all the times I died while trying to chain cyclone a pally. Both memories are valid. They are just not representative.

I know I am not unbiased when arguing game balance. I hope you realize that you are, too. Who is closer to the truth? No idea. Which is why ultimately both our opinions are worthless.

Because of all that, trying to balance a class around those outside factors is doomed to fail. Unless you can quantify it, you will not get it right. Blizzard knows that. Which is why they balance items around stat budgets and not around how powerful they feel an item should be. Items with stats that cannot be quantified tend to be highly unbalanced. How many here are not using the PvP trinket? That item has quite the strong showing for a low-ilvl blue. Nobody complains because that item is equally useful for and attainable by everyone, but that does not change the fact that most PvPers prefer a low-ilvl blue over BT purples.

Blizzard designers might have a more enlightened perspective on things, but they are still ultimately only human. The only thing Blizzard can reliably hang their hat on are numbers. If you go by what you feel is weak and strong you are bound to miss a lot of times. If you blindly buff the underrepresented classes and blindly nerf the overrepresented classes, you will never be too far off. And when you are off, representation will change and you can rebalance.

The one thing that can sink WoW is Blizzard doing something completely stupid. The odds of that happening are lower when you go by the numbers. You might not get it perfectly right, but Blizzard needs to get it just right enough for us to keep playing while taking minimal risks.

[buena]

I am done attempting to discuss strategy with a player who says "trying to talk about strategy is a waste of time" . . . in the middle of literally hundreds of lines of text repeating the same point over and over and over with no evoloution of argument whatsoever. WHAT is a waste of time now?

Some points to Gunnolf for claiming the lack of dispells and relative weakness of buffs as limiting factors strategically. These are legit issues and I would have liked to talk about them if the potential debate hadn't been drowned out by the aforementioned hundreds of lines of moronic chanting "top teams.... composition.... top teams.... composition..."

Also a token point to Molp for making me laugh IRL by claiming, essentially "I'm really an expert at strategy, I know all about what works, I just refuse to ever talk about it." A bold stance there! Who could possibly doubt such a claim?

[Neajane]

Pretty much.

[Molp]

There is a difference between discussing strategy to improve one's game and discussing strategy to theorycraft away cold hard facts. This forum is for the former. You are trying to do the latter.

When you have things to discuss that align with observable facts then we can talk strategy.

EDIT: I will end with another observable fact. In the recruitment section of this very site, there is not a single 5v5 team looking for a druid. LF pally? Sure. LF priest? Definitely. LF shaman? Yep. LF mage? You guessed it. LF druid? Not so much. So I guess the majority agrees that druids are lacking, even right here. Is there a chance that everyone is wrong and you are right? Sure. Is it likely? Eh...

[Unraveller]

You chose the measurement of druid representation in nebulously defined "top 5v5 teams" yourself.

I addressed this quite clearly. I gave you a statistical sample with tens of thousands of teams.

I'll repost it:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_E99rsZgp6TE/Rx9Ovrwf5gI/AAAAAAAAACk/gWOS6TpWjwg/s1600-h/eu5v5_2007-10-24.png

5v5 Healing Class composition:
92% Paladins
75% Priests
55% Shamans
19% Druids
---

Or, a little more simply:

There are 5 paladins for every druid in 5v5 above 2200. It is likely that EVERY team you play will contain a Paladin, while 2 of the ten teams you play will have a druid.

The results for 2v2 and 3v3 imply that their are SOME druids who know how to play, so where are they?

Here is the proof behind the "dubious" claims. The burden of proof has been met.

Respond.

[Dirane]

Only if shapeshifting removes JoJ.


I actually agree that FC should be moved up the feral tree in 2.3. As it stands right now in 2.3 with the talent buffs we are getting I see no need for FC. FC was mainly to get away from people and a good team will not position themselves in such ways that you can FC away from the dpser.

FC is really just a crutch and while it is nice to have right now in 2.3 I do not believe it will be as needed. Sure I can switch to bear and FC a pally but in reality I do believe that if you removed this in 2v2 we would be much more balanced. I think that locking down a pally for that long is a bit OP and if you removed FC from the equation then we would not get other things nerfed.

And lets be real if you need that 4 seconds extra to shut down the healer than I am sure there are other things you can improve on to compensate for that 4 seconds. Our class has the tools to do the job without FC. FC just makes it easy for newbs to shut down healers and is good for getting away from focus fire. In 2.3 Focus fire will be addressed so really its only good for letting newbs shut down healers.

This is just my opinion from playing a little bit so take it however you like.

[Molp]

Yes the offensive potential is quite strong. You could move the interrupt and root effect (its not actually a stun for some reason) to be a 21 point talent and give every druid the move part for free. But I do think that the defensive aspect of getting away is needed, especially with abilities like JoJ around which make us move slower than the guy chasing us.

And I disagree that it is a crutch. It is a tool that is core to a druid's arsenal. Which is why the vast majority of resto druids spec for it. It also adds skill to the game, since positioning becomes vital to properly use FC. Without it, once I am JoJed the best I can do against warrior pally is bear up and wait for NG to be up again. Not exactly exciting gameplay.