Doding CS in Arena.

[Fooffyfoo]

My team is getting to a high rating (2301 atm). We play a 2345 set up: MS war, Ele shammy, SL lock, Holy/Disc Priest, and me Holy Pally. It seems most games we lose is because I get hit with a counterspell. Recently we have thought to "control" the dps when I get counterspelled with Pummel on the war target, Earth Shock on the mage Dps, and deathcoil on the warrior or rogue (who would be on our priest or shammy). But still my team (mostly the shammy) wants me to dodge CS by cancel healing. It is easy for me to do this 1v1 against a mage but I have trouble doing it in 5v5. I explained to them that often attempting to dodge a CS can lead to more delay on healing. For instance if I suspect a CS I cancel heal, but if the mage doesn't CS me I have potentially wasted time healing and often it draws attention to me from the mage to CS on the next heal, or attempted heal, if I should choose to try and dodge the CS again.

Is there a good method in 5v5 for dodging CS or is it mainly luck on both players parts?

[Rades]

when heals are vital (ie surviving burst) you can ask your warlock to fear the mage instead of a healer to give you time for a few heals, although you may have to still try and do some minor dodges, or if that fails just bubble

any thoughts?

[Ven]

really you should be calling out when you get CS'd especially if the situation is dire, and your team should go on the defensive and help whoever is taking damage stay alive. fighting 4 caster DPS teams is a good example for when your team should be helping you since, for example, warlocks, particurarly SL locks like yours, can generally afford to get into the fray of a team like that and lay down a lot of CC.

faking out just takes good judgment in 5v5, and it's still risky as you said. i myself rarely see paladins attempt it actually, but CoT often allows me enough time to lock their heal near its end, even if it's a flash (meaning i generally wait a bit before i lock, or try to)

[Hashinka]

Good question.
I have the same experience as you - in 1v1 or 2v2 faked heals are possible.
In 3v3 and even more 5v5 i find it very very hard.
As you mentioned faked heals lead to a delay of healing - if you play in a 2 healer setup it may work but in the end you have to "know" that a mage will CS you and even if you do a fake heal good mage wont CS at start they know when to time a CS with castbars like quartz etc.
I believe dodging CS is very rare in 5v5 - what you can do is to get a good pos vs fears/CC and as mentioned before when i get CS i call it and hope that my team goes into def mode.
But it would be really interesting if there are pallys what can really dodge/fake heals often in 5v5 Arena - as said i remember some rare situations fake heal situations, but also i play as only healer atm in a 4 dps team.

[Duraeas]

Good question.
I have the same experience as you - in 1v1 or 2v2 faked heals are possible.
In 3v3 and even more 5v5 i find it very very hard.
As you mentioned faked heals lead to a delay of healing - if you play in a 2 healer setup it may work but in the end you have to "know" that a mage will CS you and even if you do a fake heal good mage wont CS at start they know when to time a CS with castbars like quartz etc.
I believe dodging CS is very rare in 5v5 - what you can do is to get a good pos vs fears/CC and as mentioned before when i get CS i call it and hope that my team goes into def mode.
But it would be really interesting if there are pallys what can really dodge/fake heals often in 5v5 Arena - as said i remember some rare situations fake heal situations, but also i play as only healer atm in a 4 dps team.

Agreed. You can't consistently fake healing in 5v5. With so much going on, it's harder for you to take time to not let a heal go off. The likely hood of a Mage watching you to CS is lower as well, and its my preference to just try healing anyway. Sometimes you can catch the Mage with one, but most often you can't.

Against a good 4DPS team that focuses your Warrior, start a heal and get it to about 1/2 and stop. If you catch the CS, continue healing. If you don't, it's usually best to bubble early, pop Divine Illumination, and spam heal your target so that he's at full once you bubble stops.

[Arpe]

Really all you can do is try to be more aware of where the enemy mage is when you start to spam, not just by having him as a focus target. By doing so you can easily predict when he really wants you CSed, he will start to move close etc.. Thus you can also predict an incoming gib on your party members. But generally in 5v5 its very hard to fake out or dodge CS.

[Xanzibar]

A mage could easy have you in his /focus with CSmacro, so he wouldn't even move towards you.

Fake healing is tricky, but worth trying, if the situation allows it.

I handle CS with telling on vent/partychat, and bandaging if needed (if not, hide and drink).

Note that my 5v5 experience is very limited.

[Xios]

Work on position. I know this is not always practical, but make sure your always in the best position you can be at. If you are using one of your teammates to kite some of the dps you can sometimes tell him which way to kite to put yourself in a better position on the heal. I have played some mages that use mods for the CS and he was so fast with it that I could not even start casting and cancel my heal in time to try and dodge the CS. However, that was one mage I have played out of the many...for the most part work on your position and instincts. I find the more you play, the more predicable the mage gets and you pretty much know when a CS is coming so you can react before it happens (bubble, stun the mage making him blink the other way)

[Arpe]

A mage could easy have you in his /focus with CSmacro, so he wouldn't even move towards you.

The mage will always (almost) have you as a focus target with CSmacro. But it still has a range and requires LOS.

[buena]

As a mage I have a lot of things to do in 5v5. As the fight develops at the start I get a good mental note of where the pally is. He can usually be relied on to stay in that general area, standing still and healing. I go off to sheep people, pop my pet, freeze DPS in place, etc. When our spike is in motion I just need to move towards the area I saw the pally was in and mash focus-CS on a heal.

The paladins I have the most trouble with are the ones who actively LoS or range me, or even just move around a lot. The heal I need to hit comes up, and I can't find him or don't have range or LoS. If you are doing anything besides healing - dispelling or blessing or whatever - I strongly suggest you be moving while you do it. Good timing on a pre-emptive bubble is clutch also; I've wasted dozens of CSes on it because I didn't notice forbearance was up on my focus bar in time. I'm usually sheeping the second healer during a spike, so cleansing him quickly can also help make up for me catching you with a CS. Finally, if you start channeling healing very early - even before there has been signicant damage - I have to let it through to top them off. A CS wouldn't be long enough at that point for a kill.

[Verto]

As a mage I have a lot of things to do in 5v5. As the fight develops at the start I get a good mental note of where the pally is. He can usually be relied on to stay in that general area, standing still and healing. I go off to sheep people, pop my pet, freeze DPS in place, etc. When our spike is in motion I just need to move towards the area I saw the pally was in and mash focus-CS on a heal.

The paladins I have the most trouble with are the ones who actively LoS or range me, or even just move around a lot. The heal I need to hit comes up, and I can't find him or don't have range or LoS. If you are doing anything besides healing - dispelling or blessing or whatever - I strongly suggest you be moving while you do it. Good timing on a pre-emptive bubble is clutch also; I've wasted dozens of CSes on it because I didn't notice forbearance was up on my focus bar in time. I'm usually sheeping the second healer during a spike, so cleansing him quickly can also help make up for me catching you with a CS. Finally, if you start channeling healing very early - even before there has been signicant damage - I have to let it through to top them off. A CS wouldn't be long enough at that point for a kill.


Great advice thanks!

[Rousse]

As a mage I have a lot of things to do in 5v5. As the fight develops at the start I get a good mental note of where the pally is. He can usually be relied on to stay in that general area, standing still and healing. I go off to sheep people, pop my pet, freeze DPS in place, etc. When our spike is in motion I just need to move towards the area I saw the pally was in and mash focus-CS on a heal.

The paladins I have the most trouble with are the ones who actively LoS or range me, or even just move around a lot. The heal I need to hit comes up, and I can't find him or don't have range or LoS. If you are doing anything besides healing - dispelling or blessing or whatever - I strongly suggest you be moving while you do it. Good timing on a pre-emptive bubble is clutch also; I've wasted dozens of CSes on it because I didn't notice forbearance was up on my focus bar in time. I'm usually sheeping the second healer during a spike, so cleansing him quickly can also help make up for me catching you with a CS. Finally, if you start channeling healing very early - even before there has been signicant damage - I have to let it through to top them off. A CS wouldn't be long enough at that point for a kill.

Very good post. I play on a 4 dps gib team so dodging or pre-bubbling a CS is very often the difference between a loss and a win. But then again, all of our games are won and lost in the first 20-30 seconds of combat so i KNOW the mage is watching me, makes it a little easier to dodge unless the other team has a lock (Spell lock + cot + CS = wtfowned)

[Scarf]

Ask your shammy and priest to heal more when you're CSed, it's important that they know when they need to heal (when you're counterspelled) and when they can focus on mana burning and dps (when you're bubbled).

[tysopz]

I don't really ever attempt dodging CS in 5s. If a mage knows what he's doing he won't CS me unless there's someone in dire need of a heal, and if someone is about to drop I don't really have the time to try and dodge a CS. I used to Focus the mage and see when he targets me (you can get pitbull to alert you when you get aggro), but I found out it wasn't really worth it so now I usually focus the opposing teams main healer to easier keep track of who's low and use HoJ whenever his target drops to ~30% and use SoJ if my teammates' health allows it.

Instead of focusing on who's going to CS you or not, work on your positioning, drink, stomp totems etc. Always something to do.

In 2v2 and 3v3 it's a different story.

[suny]

don't try to dodge it.
the only thing u should do is to try to stay away or being LoS of mage
also warlock druid etc.
someone can find a that position,someone can't
thats why someone is Gladiator and someone isn't ^^

[Nynaeve]

I dodge CS in that firstly, I read the battle, and if a CS will kill a team member, and I need to heal, first I bubble. The second time, I won't heal, but throw BoP first, even if its early. Third time, I'll fake heal it at 20% casted. The reasoning for this is, I know damn sure the mage knows when to hit a CS, and by this logic, he'll be waiting for that crucial heal as well.

You team need to be able to react to your 'COUNTERSPELLED' call on ventrilo as well, with everyone instantly switching roles if your team setup allows.

[puresin]

there are three things I do to deal with spell locks in 5's.

1) /stopcasting , if you can bait a cs with a holy light and successfully juke it, that's 24 seconds that you're free to cast since usually teams only put 1 interupt on paladin.

2) if there's a mage on the opposing team you absolutely need to juggle sacrifice / freedom on their primary target. preventing shatters nullifies many of the OMGINEEDTOHEAL now situations where you can *will* get cs'ed.

3) scream at people on vent when you are locked so they can turtle up / if you have another healer he knows he can cast freely.

[Vigaut]

ALWAYS stay mobile, don't linger in any one place for very long. Move around while you cleanse and bless. A lot of times, if you do stay in one place, when a crucial heal needs to be cast, a mage will just blink in your general direction and as has been said, hit the CS focus macro. By not being on any one side of the map, this throws a wrench in the plan.

Also heal often & early, don't be TOO concerned with overheal if you can feel the assist train coming.

And in general, just learn to think like a mage. What would you do in a given situation, and act accordingly. CS dodging is luck(Paladins Rely on Chance), something that has no real sure fire way of duplicating but these things I listed help.

In short: Move around a lot, use LoS, force blinks early(Hammer of Justice> Blink> Holy Light> Holy Light Cancel> CS miss),heal early, don't screw yourself by trying to dodge CS when your friends are near 100%, waiting to heal till they're 40% and dying anyway.

[Linkie]

people covered everything already in this thread for 5s

dont bother faking out the mage cs
be vocal on vent when you eat it
either:
a) range it/los & keep moving
b) bubble early in critical times

your team should automatically get defensive for at least the 5s your cs'd

use sacrifice/freedom if there's a mage to prevent being sheeped & locked down while taking damage off the primary target.

be careful the moment after you pop bubble, there's a good chance the other team's mage is going to gun for you once u no longer have a bubble. PI on mages these days hurt.