Are Holy Paladins going to ever see some buffs?

[Duraeas]

I agree before I post this that I, as with all players, am going to be somewhat biased by my class. I'm kind of getting tired of seeing repeated buffs to other healing classes and an utter failure to address the concerns that still plague the Paladin class. I'm already aware that no one within Blizzard is an avid Paladin, but I would have thought that anyone who plays can see some of the glaring weaknesses of a healing specced Paladin.

Druids and Priests have both now received buffs to their survivability. I do not think that either of these classes were more vulnerable than Paladins were. As my Shaman partner remarked the other day, "Wow, you drop really fast". This is the truth. Despite having high armor to mitigate melee damage, Paladin have no defense against casters.

Whereas Druids can cast instant instant heals, and Priests can shield and Renew, Paladins have no reasonable uninterruptible way to mitigate damage. Whereas the above two classes can easily LoS casters while letting HoTs tick, Paladins must stop to heal, almost always getting shut down in the process by a competent player.

I believe the balancing issue is and always will be bubble. It's bubble that gives Paladin viability in 5v5, but in longer out-lasting games of 3v3 and 2v2, bubble only protects the Paladin for so long. Without it, we are the easiest healer to shut down and arguably the easiest to kill. If a Rogue is on me, I'm not going to heal.

What I'd like to see done with the Paladin is to address these balancing points and to make it harder to shut the class down entirely. It's incredibly frustrating to 2v2 and 3v3 as a Paladin, and I can't begin to understand why Priests and Druids (both are represented at least twice as often in high end 3v3 as Paladins) continue to receive survivability buffs.

I'm sure some of this stems from "they got some I want some too", but Druids haven't even been COMPLAINING about survivability, so someone is clearly playing one at Blizzard and having issues from the class. I can't see any other explanation.

[Solitary]

A lot of what you say could be made into Resto Shaman arguements as well.

No hots, easy to shut down. But, go on to futher describe how CC hurts shamans more (no BoS, cleanse etc), as well as the lack of a bubble. But, shamans have purge, interrupts different ways of avoiding things that paladins don't. In the end they are two different classes, just like druids and priests are as well. Think of a priest who is constantly getting purged. We're removing their utility and 'locking them down' as well due to many of their heals, instant and otherwise, being easily removable. Hey, 600 mana for a PWS, and it absorbs nothing, renew, who knows, half the time it might not even get a chance to tick.

In the end all classes have strengths and weaknesses, and the real game is trying to use your strengths and exploit the opponents weaknesses. It's part of what makes the game fun (at least for me) because its not the same mirror match over and over again. Fighting a priest is different than fighting a paladin or druid or shaman. And honestly, paladin is probably the 2nd most represented healer in 2v2s especially when paired with warriors or warlocks only behind druids.

As for your particular example of a rogue beating on you and not being able to heal, yeah, its harder, but there are lots of ways that you still can, I won't explain them because I'm sure you know them as an experienced PvPer. =p

[Verto]

Well, the problem is, our support tools are so strong they don't feel like they can give us anything else and keep us balanced. Our weaknesses are huge and easily exploited, but our strong points are very strong and "in your face".

I feel that 2v2 is probably the best representation of how balanced classes are for pvp on an individual level. 2v2 shows me that hunters, mages, and shamans most of all probably need some buffs also.

I know that as a paladin without a warrior or warlock combo I am not going to be successful. I only have a rogue to play with though, so I try to make the best of it.

I can summarize why I don't think we'll see "buffs" to holy anytime soon based completly on 2 different 2v2 observations from my point of view:

I am NEVER focus targeted to kill first because it takes a LONG time for 1 dps to kill me if I play around them and play smart.

I smile whenever I see a 2 dps team because Bubble and BoP basically give my team "inevitability" for when they blow their cooldowns to CC/burst and I nullify what they did leaving my rogue and myself at 100% with them at 50% and no heals and no more cc's until dead. (most of the time)

Paladins seem to be a strong barrier to "gib" teams like twin POM/Pyro mages or Double Rogue or Double Ele Shammy..... and so on. We invalidate so my quick win strategies. The problem is I think that most pallies are sick of being the counter to things that Blizzard wants to "balance out". We don't want to be the ever present "you better have some long game with your burst strategy" class. They are actually trying to make Ret viable to give us another option for arena and I think that the free spell dmg we're getting benefits Shamans and Pallies a LOT from a healing perspective. I'm looking forward to my Rogue/Pally 2v2 in 2.3

[Phiers]

I'd be very happy if they moved Blessed life somewhere useful, like low tier prot, where we could pick it up with minor trade offs since those talents are basically 100% wasted. It's a good talent, just in a completely worthless spot, since I know I'm already short on points for high tier holy, but can't drop stoicism and imp conc aura, and if I could, I'd pick up Imp HoJ. That, or buff holy shock by making it heal closer to 2k (full +healing benefit would work, or just significantly increase the base spell), with a 10 sec CD and a reduced mana cost (not required, just would be nice). Basically, a prayer of mending that doesn't bounce. Lowering Sacred Duty or Ardent Defender from the prot tree would also be very enjoyable. Moving pursuit of justice to low tier prot would again be helpful (sorry if I seem repetative, it's just a good spot for talents where people of all 3 specs could still pick them up and make use out of them). Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

[Ven]

i think they should just give paladins blessing of spell warding (spell BoP). same timer as BoP, applies forebearance. the mechanical problem would be that it should be countered by dispel probably, and dispels would have to be able to affect it even though they are magically based (most, anyway)

the balance problem would be that it would cement paladins as the "best" pvp healers imo, and i'd really rather see more resto shamans and resto druids healing than seeing the same old holy healer duo. i don't see who else to give it to from a design perspective tho (especially since paladins are the most vulnerable healer to harassment from dmg casters), and an ability like this would provide a suitable counter against full caster teams (just as kiting and bop'ing deters melee heavy teams and have both done so since the beginning of season 1)

[Duraeas]

i think they should just give paladins blessing of spell warding (spell BoP). same timer as BoP, applies forebearance. the mechanical problem would be that it should be countered by dispel probably, and dispels would have to be able to affect it even though they are magically based (most, anyway)

the balance problem would be that it would cement paladins as the "best" pvp healers imo, and i'd really rather see more resto shamans and resto druids healing than seeing the same old holy healer duo. i don't see who else to give it to from a design perspective tho (especially since paladins are the most vulnerable healer to harassment from dmg casters), and an ability like this would provide a suitable counter against full caster teams (just as kiting and bop'ing deters melee heavy teams and have both done so since the beginning of season 1)

Resto Druids are already amazing, the problem is that most Resto Druids suck. There are plenty of good ones in high end 3v3 and 2v2, and a few in 5v5. As far as healing duos goes, I do think Resto Shamans need some buffs too, but my team runs Shaman/Paladin for healers and we're doing okay.

We were meant to get a spell version of BoP in TBC but they removed it. Not sure why. I do think there needs to be more viable short heals. Flash of Light is hardly time-efficient. If I stop to heal myself, FoL just isn't enough and Holy Light is too long. Holy Shock is like a shitty, expensive PoM. In fact, the sheer shit that is Holy Shock pisses me off too. Holy Paladins have some of the most garbage 11/21/31/41 pt talents in the game, which makes things even more frustrating.

[Phiers]

In fact, the sheer shit that is Holy Shock pisses me off too.

Yep. It's more of a "If I try to heal, I'm going to get CSed" or a "I'm gonna die I'm gonna die I'm gonna die ohshitohshitohshit" spell, than something you'd actually use because it's decent. If it healed for ~2000 for 300ish mana, it'd still be less hp/efficiency than similar spells on less CD, but it would significantly help the paladin arsenal.

[Solitary]

Yep. It's more of a "If I try to heal, I'm going to get CSed" or a "I'm gonna die I'm gonna die I'm gonna die ohshitohshitohshit" spell, than something you'd actually use because it's decent. If it healed for ~2000 for 300ish mana, it'd still be less hp/efficiency than similar spells on less CD, but it would significantly help the paladin arsenal.

2k instant heal for 300 mana? What world do you live in? My 484 mana LHW with a 1.5s cast hits for about 2k........... that's with mana reduction talents and 1500ish healing. Shield and mending are both much weaker spells than you give them credit for.... both are dispellable, mending is a base 800 healing for 400 mana and only gets the instant cast coefficent. Shield is only 1350ish healing atm(next patch it will probably go up slightly) for 600 mana, and its dispellable and pre-mitigation 1350 damage, which, is a huge deal. Also neither of them can be used offensively, and while its not commonly done a well placed holy shock can make a huge difference in actually finishing off a target. (My max rank ES is about the same as your max rank Holy Shock, but more mana).

If its really THAT huge a concern that you have no way to instant heal yourself due to lock down sacrifice a trinket slot for a talisman of the alliance/horde or next patches new pvp trinket for an effective 1000/1750 heal while you're locked. And your bubble isn't up.

Your solution, bubble, mine (as a resto shaman) NS.

Trust me, I understand your pain of a lack of instant heals, but there are ways around it.

[Duraeas]

2k instant heal for 300 mana? What world do you live in? My 484 mana LHW with a 1.5s cast hits for about 2k........... that's with mana reduction talents and 1500ish healing. Shield and mending are both much weaker spells than you give them credit for.... both are dispellable, mending is a base 800 healing for 400 mana and only gets the instant cast coefficent. Shield is only 1350ish healing atm(next patch it will probably go up slightly) for 600 mana, and its dispellable and pre-mitigation 1350 damage, which, is a huge deal. Also neither of them can be used offensively, and while its not commonly done a well placed holy shock can make a huge difference in actually finishing off a target. (My max rank ES is about the same as your max rank Holy Shock, but more mana).

If its really THAT huge a concern that you have no way to instant heal yourself due to lock down sacrifice a trinket slot for a talisman of the alliance/horde or next patches new pvp trinket for an effective 1000/1750 heal while you're locked. And your bubble isn't up.

Your solution, bubble, mine (as a resto shaman) NS.

Trust me, I understand your pain of a lack of instant heals, but there are ways around it.

As far as Holy Shock being used offensively, don't even bring that up. The fact that we have to spec 31 points to have a marginally useful offensive ability which occurs a 15 second cooldown is frustrating enough.

Shamans are the dire need of help too, I agree. Priests and Druids however were not. You do have Earth Shield. I understand that it is dispellable, but so are BoP, Freedom, and to a lesser extent Divine Shield. I've seen some good Druid use the few seconds they have BoP to Ghost Wolf away and heal much like a Druid. Priests are vulnerable to dispel, and I honestly think that offensive dispel has become way out of control. It is at the point where it essentially shuts down everything some classes can do to protect themselves. On the flip-side, a defensive dispeller cannot afford to risk dispelling ANYTHING off someone with UA.

That aside, Shaman are looking at being much more mana efficient next season. I can only hope so, as it will go a long way to fixing the class. I'd definitely trade some mana efficiency for some versatility.

[Thunderkatt]

Part of the problem with our class comes from the design. We're incredibly easy to shut down, but unlike the Shaman class we offer Nothing to our team other than healing. No totems, no ES, no Bloodlust, no purge, etc. The only thing we can do is play defensively without the ability to heal while playing LOS/Kite. Shaman do have similar problems, but as mentioned at least the certain limitations in healing are (at least in some way) mildly off-set by the utility you bring to the game. We have zero utility and are the easiest (or tied with Shaman) healer to lock down. Yes Priests can be purge spammed, but the amount of classes with the ability to offensively dispel are far outnumbered by those with a lockout like CS. One of our major problems is we also have no way to recover after an interrupt or CC. While Priests have Shield + POM, Druids have CC or NS and Shaman have ES + NS, we have nothing - we must STAND STILL and CAST a heal, which leaves us open to a game-ending interrupt.

I made a post about the Paladin issues on the WOW forums last week and got some good feedback. Below is the link if people are interested.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2517894840&sid=1

[sadris]

we offer Nothing to our team other than healing. No totems, no ES, no Bloodlust, no purge, etc.

Longevity.
Blessings.
Cleanse.
Near guarantee that you won't be the focus target.
Ranged stun.

[Solitary]

First, gotta respond to Thundercat.

Nothing added but healing? Lets talk about Paladin utility.

1) Blessings. Don't get me started on Freedom, dispellable, yes, still incredibly useful. Don't forget Sacrifice makes it incredibly difficult to CC you and its actual function also makes it harder to burn a target down. Won't get into the regular blessings again, which are pretty much as useful as totems, if not better..... it takes mana to dispel, but not to wand or have a pet hit a totem.

2) HoJ. As everyone knows stuns are extrodinairily useful.

3) Divine Shield and Bubble.

4) Defensive dispel. Sure, you can talk about UA targets not being cleansable--- what about sheeps?

Now, classes with lockout like CS vs. Offensive Dispel. Lets go for ALL forms of both.

CS: Mages (Counterspell), Warlock Pet (Spell Lock), Rogue (Kick), Warrior (Pummel), Shaman (Earth Shock).

Offensive Dispel: Mages (Spellsteal), Warlock Pet (Consume Magic, I think its called.), Shaman (Purge), Priest (Dispel Magic), and upcoming Hunter (Arcane Shot)

So, just about even. Now, lets look at it this way too-- all of those dispels are ranged, and have a pretty big one, and are (for the most part 3 out of 5 of them) totally spammable, no cooldown associated with it. So, I think a priests problems with dispel are comparable to a paladin/shamans problem with interrupts. Not to mention they can be interrupted as well if their other crap is being dispelled...... Oh and dispelled stuff = wasted mana, interrupted stuff = no wasted mana.

Nothing to recover from a CS with? *COUGH* BUBBLE *COUGH*??? Oh, and stand there and cast a heal isn't a bad choice considering they've already used their lockout as well.

Other classes choices:
Druid: NS and CC. (CC is cast time, just like your heal that you're not counting, and lets say cyclone or roots is equiv to your HoJ which may be up as well too, but is instant)
Priest: Shield + PoM. (Fine, even assuming they aren't purged they probably took a lot more damage than you did while being locked out.)
Shaman: NS and ES. (ES fine, a 800 point heal for 900 mana, before MS/Wound Poison, assuming its not instantly dispelled.)

NS - 3 min cooldown.
Divine Shield - 5 min cooldown.
BoP - 3 min cooldown.

Honestly I think you probably win the "what can I do after CS'd" battle.

Classes are different. Paladins and Shamans have a weakness of being easier to lockdown. Priests and Druids are a lot squishier. I could list more but I don't think its necessary.

[Thunderkatt]

I should have been more specific. I'm referring to Paladin's in 2v2 and 3v3, in 5v5 we are perfectly fine.

And you didn't even understand my point about recovery skills. Yes DS saves ME and allows me to cast, but it doesn't do anything to help a teammate. If I'm CC'd or interrupted, I have no way to somehow save a teammate at low HP. Holy Shock is junk and DS does nothing but let me cast, which means nothing if my teammate dies before the cast finishes. Other classes have a way to either save the teammate (ie. NS) or mitigate damage to give themselves time to get a cast off (ie. Shield, POM, ES, etc.). Paladins lack both, unless all incoming damage is melee.

Again though, in 5v5 our weaknesses aren't that bad, my post (and the subsequent post on the WOW forums) was directly at Paladin weakness in 2v2 and 3v3.

[Duraeas]

Longevity.
Blessings.
Cleanse.
Near guarantee that you won't be the focus target.
Ranged stun.

As I've stated, our longevity is highly debatable. If I had a Priest in my 5v5, I would probably make the Paladin the first target. It certainly worked for my team last season.

The 10 minute Blessings are like your mark of the Wild. Stating everything the Paladin class has for skills doesn't do anything regarding the weaknesses I've stated.

We can cure Magic, you can cure Curses. Cleanse is losing its effectiveness as classes are becoming able to add 3 debuffs on a universal cooldown as we can only remove 1 at a time.

10 yard dispellable ranged stun. One trinketable CC doesn't go far when you have nothing to follow it up with.

Having your teammate be the focus target isn't any better when a Druid can lock you out of healing for 25+ seconds while healing his team.

[Solitary]

As far as Holy Shock being used offensively, don't even bring that up. The fact that we have to spec 31 points to have a marginally useful offensive ability which occurs a 15 second cooldown is frustrating enough.

Shamans are the dire need of help too, I agree. Priests and Druids however were not. You do have Earth Shield. I understand that it is dispellable, but so are BoP, Freedom, and to a lesser extent Divine Shield. I've seen some good Druid use the few seconds they have BoP to Ghost Wolf away and heal much like a Druid. Priests are vulnerable to dispel, and I honestly think that offensive dispel has become way out of control. It is at the point where it essentially shuts down everything some classes can do to protect themselves. On the flip-side, a defensive dispeller cannot afford to risk dispelling ANYTHING off someone with UA.

That aside, Shaman are looking at being much more mana efficient next season. I can only hope so, as it will go a long way to fixing the class. I'd definitely trade some mana efficiency for some versatility.

*Guess its really not but I thought it would be!*
Double post, but I think its necessary as there are 2 totally seperate responses.

I agree, using holy shock offensively usually doesn't make sense, but neither does my Max Rank ES, the fact of the matter is that it is there if really needed. Just like a SW: Death/Moonfire.

Yes, BoP and BoF are dispellable, but the cleanse that they become is just as useful, split seconds are often all the difference. ES is also dispellable but 1 tick of 800 healing before its dispelled for 900 mana isnt' as useful as BoF or BoP before dispels.

Of course, don't dispel shit with UA, but you can still dispel sheeps, can't you? That's pretty huge.

I'm looking forward to the Shaman Water Shield buff too, mana wins games.

[Andruin]

Paladins definitely need some help in the 2s and 3s department. You're blind if you cant see that they're slowly being phased out in these brackets with the recent nerfs to BoS and BoF.

[Solitary]

I should have been more specific. I'm referring to Paladin's in 2v2 and 3v3, in 5v5 we are perfectly fine.

And you didn't even understand my point about recovery skills. Yes DS saves ME and allows me to cast, but it doesn't do anything to help a teammate. If I'm CC'd or interrupted, I have no way to somehow save a teammate at low HP. Holy Shock is junk and DS does nothing but let me cast, which means nothing if my teammate dies before the cast finishes. Other classes have a way to either save the teammate (ie. NS) or mitigate damage to give themselves time to get a cast off (ie. Shield, POM, ES, etc.). Paladins lack both, unless all incoming damage is melee.

Again though, in 5v5 our weaknesses aren't that bad, my post (and the subsequent post on the WOW forums) was directly at Paladin weakness in 2v2 and 3v3.

Seeing as how half damage is physical I say BoP is pretty huge. Holy shock is instant little healing but not bad. And also, you're forgetting your teammate should have something to do with mitigating the damage they take. I pair with a rogue instead of a warrior now just for that reason. It makes more sense for me because of the lockout issues against dual DPS teams.

But again, look at the healers most prevelant in 2s. First is Druid, then Paladin. There's a reason behind it, they still synergize incredibly well with warriors even with recent BoF/BoS nerfs. The most underrepresented are Priests and Shamans. (And if by slowly phased out you mean that they are going from being 90% of the top teams to being 30-40%, then isn't that what we're aiming for?)

Not so sure about the 3s numbers but I damn well see a lot more paladins than Holy Priests, Resto Shamans, and Resto Druids.

[sadris]

I should have been more specific. I'm referring to Paladin's in 2v2 and 3v3, in 5v5 we are perfectly fine.

Again though, in 5v5 our weaknesses aren't that bad, my post (and the subsequent post on the WOW forums) was directly at Paladin weakness in 2v2 and 3v3.

Blizzard has stated that they try to achieve balance around 5v5, not 2s or 3s. So your lacking in those brackets is irrelevant.

[Thunderkatt]

No, Resto Druids and Holy Priests dominate 3s.

And if you're honestly advocating Holy Shock, you've clearly never played a Paladin.

[Solitary]

Advocate?

I'm not saying its the best ability in the world, but I find it hard to believe that its something you don't have anywhere on your bar. If your partner is at 3% and about to die to dots so you don't have the time for a FoL I'm sure you'd use it.

[Duraeas]

Advocate?

I'm not saying its the best ability in the world, but I find it hard to believe that its something you don't have anywhere on your bar. If your partner is at 3% and about to die to dots so you don't have the time for a FoL I'm sure you'd use it.

I have it on my bar, but only because we have such a small number of useful abilities. The fact that I have to spec 31 points into Holy to get one decent offensive ability is whats ridiculous. Imagine you had to spec 31 elemental to get an offensive instant cast.

If they are 3% and DoTTed and I use FoL, they're going to die before I even have the chance to cast a Flash of Light.

If there was an ability a Priest could put on friendly targets, that healed them and did 3500 damage and Silenced you for 5 seconds, you would see how much I get frustrated by UA.

[Neajane]

Advocate?

I'm not saying its the best ability in the world, but I find it hard to believe that its something you don't have anywhere on your bar. If your partner is at 3% and about to die to dots so you don't have the time for a FoL I'm sure you'd use it.


Grounding totem is the best thing since sliced bread. Get it?

[idare]

1. Our stun is the most resisted spell in the game argueably tied with priest fear.

2. Druids have feral charge; shorter cd.

3. Druids have bash same as our stun.

4. Druids have cyclone and roots to escape.

5. After bubble what do we do? Is the question that is all we have.

6. Shamans can kite.

7. Shamans have very strong flash heal.

8. Shamans need help too.

9. Pallyes are the most susceptible to lock out of all classes.

10. Using holy shock to heal for 900 and triggering gcd is not worth it.

11. We have to spec for holy shock all other healers get their spells for free.

12. Trainable holy shock same heals and mana as it is now 5second cd. New 31 pt talent.

[Grup]

Paladins can kite better than shaman, by a lot. Our "flash heal" is ridiculously inefficient and unless it's a short game, often isn't what we should be casting. Imo, right now in terms of healing, paladins and priests are pretty balanced, shaman need help in 2v2, and druids need to be toned down in 2v2 + buffed in 5v5. Paladins are SUPPOSED to have weaknesses, everyone does.