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Ironside
10-29-2007, 04:07 AM
I see this discussion a lot, and I notice in most of them people claim that their viewpoints are mathematically proven without providing math or links to math. Unless they are discussing different aspects of swords vs axes, I would assume that both sides being correct is impossible. I'm not great at math, but I'm going to try my hand to provide at least some guidance on this issue. If you have the time to correct me, then please do so, as I'm still kind of torn on what weapon I should be upgrading to.

Overall
Axes - 5% chance to do double damage on a single attack, and the attack counts as a crit
Impale, Deep Wounds, Flurry, DPS skills do more damage

Swords - 5% chance to do damage equal to a white swing on a single attack
Less affected by resilience, utility skills do more damage

For a white swing, the two skills are the same in the long run. Both give you a 5% chance to do double damage.

For most skills, two issues come into play. All damage skills give bonus damage, which benefits Axes more, since it is doubled as well, while Swords increases damage by the base white swing when it procs off a skill. Additionally, skills all benefit from Impale, which modifies the critical damage bonus. For my calculations I'm assuming the only difference in here is the two specs, IE Deep Wounds is up, Flurry is already up if you have it, stats are equal, racials don't apply, etc.

Mortal Strike will be my example since it's a best case scenario for Axes; at weapon damage +210 it has more bonus damage than any other skill. Since this skill depends on both the base weapon damage and resilience I'm a bit confused on how exactly to determine what I should base the comparison on. I just did two tests based on either resilience being constant or white damage being held constant.

I took 25% critical damage reduction, the current maximum, as my constant resilience value. Here, the variable was white swing damage.
Axes: (x+210) * 2.2 * (100% - (critical damage reduction))
Swords: 2x + 210
At 390 damage per swing, after mitigation, Swords are equal to Axes when a "proc" occurs.
Axes = (390 + 210) * 2.2 * .75 = 990 damage
Swords = (390 * 2) + 210 = 990

Before this point Axes are superior, and after this point Swords are superior.

When damage is held constant, I took a white swing value of 500 as my base. The variable here is critical damage reduction.
Axes: 710 * 2.2 * (1 - x)
Swords: 710 + 500 = 1210
The equation for Swords here is constant, since a Sword spec proc is unaffected by resilience. Swords are equal to Axes when x is around 23% and you are hitting your target for a value of 500 after mitigation. Again, before that point Axes are better, after that point Swords are better.

For the constant values I chose, the following also apply.
Axes become worse at a higher damage point in the first comparison if you choose a lower constant value for resilience. On the other hand Axes become worse at a lower resilience value if you choose a higher value for your white damage constant.

In this situation, Swords also have the unmatched benefit of giving rage from skills that proc. I also won't do the math to compare how Axes fare when discussing procs off skills like Hamstring and Pummel since that seems fairly self-evident.

More will follow on Deep Wounds and Flurry.

nubbey
10-29-2007, 12:06 PM
Well, the impale modifier only applies to your yellow crits.

Dragoth
10-29-2007, 12:15 PM
Most people seem to think that axe is a flat 5% damage bonus pre-resilience, but actually, it's less even then.

Axe raises your crit chance by 5%.
However, 5% more crit doesn't necessarily equal 5% of damage.

Assuming you have 0% Crit, then you axe spec raises your damage by 5% (100+5=105, 105/100 = 1,05).

But assuming you have 95% Crit, then the damage increase is more close to 2,5% (195+5=200, 200/195 ~ 1,025).

So, if you have around 30% Crit, then your damage increase from axe spec is roughly 3,8% (130+5=135, 135/130 ~ 1,038).

Of course, Impale evens this out a bit, but not enough to beat swords.

Post resilience, things get worse for axes.

Ishnu
10-29-2007, 12:28 PM
in addition, swordspec can proc off stuff like hamstring

and a crit hamstring is pretty useless, though

Negata
10-29-2007, 03:31 PM
A decently geared warrior will have 31% crit or more in battle stance. That is full S2. Season 3 will bring it up to around 33% in battle, which is more than enough to keep flurry/wounds constantly up. Swords scales much better with gear changes on both your side, and the person you are hitting. Axes were good in S1, ok in S2, but are falling far behind in S3 and will continue to do so in that fashion.

Swords > Axes

Ironside
10-29-2007, 08:39 PM
Well, the impale modifier only applies to your yellow crits.

This is true, that's why I indicated that for a normal white swing the two skills are almost the same. Many people like to point out that the second swing can be dodged/blocked/parried/miss, but can also crit.

The math for this is pretty simple now that they've removed Sword spec proccing off itself. In the long run, your damage from the proc is equivalent to 100% + your crit rate. At a crit rate of 30% and hit of 5% and a target with no dodge/parry/block/Arctic Winds you will be doing on average 230% damage compared to a normal swing. Dodge/parry/miss all reduce from the damage by a flat % modifier. For block, you need to know how much your target blocks for as a percentage of your swing value and apply that to their block percentage to get a flat % modifier that can be added to their dodge/parry/miss.

I think you'll be hard pressed to a target that has more combined dodge/parry/block/miss than you have critical strike chance when they have no resilience. If they do have resilience, then that will also reduce Axe "proc" damage at a rate twice as much since critical damage reduction is 2% for every 1% of critical strike chance reduction. The only targets I can think of that are real contenders in Arena that might have that much dodge are Rogues, and if Rogues are a problem for you I've heard that Maces are better than both Swords and Axes, though math for the Maces proc is difficult to do.

For white swings and Hamstring/Pummel Swords are clearly superior. For Mortal Strike they become better after a certain point against resilience. For Whirlwind and Heroic Strike they become better at an earlier point.

Negata, you make a point that many other Swords advocates do, in that they assume Flurry and Deep Wounds will always be up, but I'm trying to provide math. However, I'm a bit stuck on how to calculate increased uptime, so any help is appreciated.

Kcolraw
10-29-2007, 08:49 PM
A decently geared warrior will have 31% crit or more in battle stance. That is full S2. Season 3 will bring it up to around 33% in battle, which is more than enough to keep flurry/wounds constantly up.
but but but the resilience/talents... 33% is realistically 15% on a geared elemental shaman for example

sword vs axe isn't that black and white

Shouri
10-30-2007, 02:35 AM
Axes are terrible with resilience, I've been all 3 weapon specs and I just love the burst from swords.

Ishnu
10-30-2007, 10:48 AM
but but but the resilience/talents... 33% is realistically 15% on a geared elemental shaman for example

sword vs axe isn't that black and white
ah well, but if that shamn has -20% crit, he has also -40% critdmg, which makes axe still far more worse than sword

Magdain
10-30-2007, 11:04 AM
A decently geared warrior will have 31% crit or more in battle stance. That is full S2. Season 3 will bring it up to around 33% in battle, which is more than enough to keep flurry/wounds constantly up. Swords scales much better with gear changes on both your side, and the person you are hitting. Axes were good in S1, ok in S2, but are falling far behind in S3 and will continue to do so in that fashion.

Swords > Axes

The resilience on gear has for the most part stagnated going from season2 to season3 and barring gem changes some will be losing resilience to the set bonus function change. So to be fair axe won't get much worse.

That being said I'd agree with the sword side of the weapon spec argument for min-maxing, but the amount of times you will lose a game because you have an axe instead of a sword or mace next season can probably be counted on one hand.

Kcolraw
11-02-2007, 12:44 AM
ah well, but if that shamn has -20% crit, he has also -40% critdmg, which makes axe still far more worse than sword
no... it caps out at -25% critdmg, i said -18% crit there because that's about what a shaman with close to 500 resi and 3/3 elemental shields has

but the amount of times you will lose a game because you have an axe instead of a sword or mace next season can probably be counted on one hand.
don't bring mace into this imo, lol