Flurry vs BloodFRENZY vs Tactical Mastery

[Glave]

edit: Like a moron, my OP title said Bloodcraze instead of Bloodfrenzy. Carry on, nothing to see here.

Last season I would never have considered having no points in tactical master, especially with the almost useless Spell Reflect costing 25 rage.

I went back and forth between 33/25/3, 35/23/3, and towards the end I dropped TM completely and went 33/28. I made the decision to keep flurry when I realized I wasn't going to be able to get a Storm Herald and was going to be getting the Merciless Mace. The faster attack speed on the Bonegrinder plus three points in flurry make it a 3.1 speed weapon with flurry procced.

But at the same time, I use slam like a madman. The problem here is that when I slam, it eats a flurry charge and it isn't affected by flurry to begin with. But with the constantly mobile enemy in arena and the ease of kiting the warriors, I don't get to slam a lot, but when I do it can be absolutely devastating.

So Imp Slam is definitely here to stay. But what about flurry? Would I be better served with Blood craze? A flat 4% increase to damage to a deep wounded target? I also find myself NEVER using overpower anymore since I don't have tactical mastery. It can be absolutely devastating to have someone dodge, and me to go from 80 rage to 10 rage just for a move that has ~70% to crit. I often just hamstring and slam my target instead.

I don't really have an answer to any of this. I made this post for discussion. I'm fairly sure most warriors will stick with 33/28, but I'm curious to see what some of the blood craze and tactical mastery warriors have to say here.

[Annihilate]

Last season I would never have considered having no points in tactical master, especially with the almost useless Spell Reflect costing 25 rage.

I went back and forth between 33/25/3, 35/23/3, and towards the end I dropped TM completely and went 33/28. I made the decision to keep flurry when I realized I wasn't going to be able to get a Storm Herald and was going to be getting the Merciless Mace. The faster attack speed on the Bonegrinder plus three points in flurry make it a 3.1 speed weapon with flurry procced.

But at the same time, I use slam like a madman. The problem here is that when I slam, it eats a flurry charge and it isn't affected by flurry to begin with. But with the constantly mobile enemy in arena and the ease of kiting the warriors, I don't get to slam a lot, but when I do it can be absolutely devastating.

So Imp Slam is definitely here to stay. But what about flurry? Would I be better served with Blood craze? A flat 4% increase to damage to a deep wounded target? I also find myself NEVER using overpower anymore since I don't have tactical mastery. It can be absolutely devastating to have someone dodge, and me to go from 80 rage to 10 rage just for a move that has ~70% to crit. I often just hamstring and slam my target instead.

I don't really have an answer to any of this. I made this post for discussion. I'm fairly sure most warriors will stick with 33/28, but I'm curious to see what some of the blood craze and tactical mastery warriors have to say here.

Why is it Flurry vs Bloodcraze vs Tactical Mastery? It should be your tier 3 talents vs Bloodcraze. Like Commanding Presence vs Bloodcraze.

Anyways though, I think you really need to look at what a warriors largest weakness is. I too used to be a damage junky and was actually top 5 for 2v2 and top 10 for 3v3 by pretty much being a damage junky (flurry + bloodmoon.) Anyways in season 1 a lot of fights actually turned out to be mana fights because you fought other healer / dps teams MUCH more often. In season 2 your biggest weakness and main threat preventing you from getting top 5-10 in any battlegroup will be casters and the warriors weakness against taking damage. This is why I think that if you can increase your survivability you will do much better overall, and you are already starting to see this by warriors succeeding with other classes than paladins now for 2v2, it's pretty much all about countering casters nowadays.

So focus on what your biggest weakness is and spec accordingly, btw imp slam is pretty fucking meh.

[Kazaganthi]

I also switched specs at the beginning of this season. In our battlegroup 4 dps teams have become much more common. They usually target me first. As such I switched away from a more dps spec to TM. I have a much easier time surviving their initial burst and we win a lot more games in 5s. TM basically lets you adapt better to anything you may face. I do miss flurry a bit, but I wouldn't trade the survivability for it.

Kaz

[Agrate]

I also switched specs at the beginning of this season. In our battlegroup 4 dps teams have become much more common. They usually target me first. As such I switched away from a more dps spec to TM. I have a much easier time surviving their initial burst and we win a lot more games in 5s. TM basically lets you adapt better to anything you may face. I do miss flurry a bit, but I wouldn't trade the survivability for it.

Kaz
Definitely. I am on an outlast team and TM has given me the slight edge our team needs to keep me up and weather the disgusting initial dps that all the 4dps teams bring to the table. Usually I just go into defensive when things get rough and run around a bit spamming piercing and spell reflect until Im topped off, though Ive found that (if possible) also keeping ms up in defensive even if its with a trashy 1hander really helps further deplete their team's mana and locking in the win, of course switching back once Im topped off (if I get topped off haha). I have always been interested in the flurry build but all my teams are outlast and I need all the flexibility I can get with the long matches.

[Glave]

Why is it Flurry vs Bloodcraze vs Tactical Mastery? It should be your tier 3 talents vs Bloodcraze. Like Commanding Presence vs Bloodcraze.

Anyways though, I think you really need to look at what a warriors largest weakness is. I too used to be a damage junky and was actually top 5 for 2v2 and top 10 for 3v3 by pretty much being a damage junky (flurry + bloodmoon.) Anyways in season 1 a lot of fights actually turned out to be mana fights because you fought other healer / dps teams MUCH more often. In season 2 your biggest weakness and main threat preventing you from getting top 5-10 in any battlegroup will be casters and the warriors weakness against taking damage. This is why I think that if you can increase your survivability you will do much better overall, and you are already starting to see this by warriors succeeding with other classes than paladins now for 2v2, it's pretty much all about countering casters nowadays.

So focus on what your biggest weakness is and spec accordingly, btw imp slam is pretty fucking meh.

You're not mace spec so you have NO idea what Imp Slam is capable of. The OP was about the top tier talents, not about the t3 talents. I've made my decision in the t3 talents in fury, so that's not what I made the post about.

[Tyveris]

Why is it Flurry vs Bloodcraze vs Tactical Mastery? It should be your tier 3 talents vs Bloodcraze. Like Commanding Presence vs Bloodcraze.

Anyways though, I think you really need to look at what a warriors largest weakness is. I too used to be a damage junky and was actually top 5 for 2v2 and top 10 for 3v3 by pretty much being a damage junky (flurry + bloodmoon.) Anyways in season 1 a lot of fights actually turned out to be mana fights because you fought other healer / dps teams MUCH more often. In season 2 your biggest weakness and main threat preventing you from getting top 5-10 in any battlegroup will be casters and the warriors weakness against taking damage. This is why I think that if you can increase your survivability you will do much better overall, and you are already starting to see this by warriors succeeding with other classes than paladins now for 2v2, it's pretty much all about countering casters nowadays.

So focus on what your biggest weakness is and spec accordingly, btw imp slam is pretty fucking meh.

You're not mace spec so you have NO idea what Imp Slam is capable of. The OP was about the top tier talents, not about the t3 talents. I've made my decision in the t3 talents in fury, so that's not what I made the post about.

Forgive a novice mage who doesn't know much about warriors, why does Imp Slam get that much better with mace spec? Also, I'd consider his advice about TM considering I'm on your 5v5 team and I know how fast you go down sometimes :P

[Glave]

Forgive a novice mage who doesn't know much about warriors, why does Imp Slam get that much better with mace spec? Also, I'd consider his advice about TM considering I'm on your 5v5 team and I know how fast you go down sometimes :P

When I get a mace spec proc it's a free 2 slams without worrying about the other person moving out of range while I cast(LOLWARRIORCAST). So that's the equivalent of 2 mortal strikes worth of damage in 3 seconds.

As for TM. That was the purpose of my post. The ONLY benefit to it is being able to go D stance and immediately get spell reflect up. But when I'm getting focused that hard I'll almost immediately have 25 rage anyways to get SR up. And that 1-2 second delay in getting SR up has never made a difference as to whether or not I've died in the past. It has more to do with our team coming together and doing our jobs, which we do, which is why we're no.8 and only going up.

I am not yet convinced that getting TM would make up for the loss of flurry. You've seen the DPS I put out in our arenas. I'm almost always no.1.

Oh and that game we lost to that priest when you were screaming at me to get the pummel? I didn't have the rage. I'd be even MORE rage starved without flurry in games in which I am completley and utterly ignored until the end.

Additionally, is there a way you can set this board up so it doesn't quote EVERY quote before in the "quote chain". That's gonna make for some fuckin LOOOOOOOOOOONG posts when someone quotes someone who has quoted the person who quoted 8 people before him.

[Tyveris]

I'll see what I can do about quote spam, and thanks for the mace stun clarification.

[Glave]

Well what do you, being on my team, think about the TM vs Flurry issue?

I believe that the whole reason behind warriors being "squishy" in the first place has to do with the fact that back at 60 PvP was all about stamina for warriors. But in arena s1 warriors were being COMPLETELY ignored and so had to sacrifice ALL their stam for DPS. But once teams realized warriors were doing this, they go "Hey we can focus the warriors". Doesn't work well when a warrior is on his toes and goes d stance and starts spell reflecting. But it cuts the warriors DPS down a good bit(This is another great argument for Imp Slam. With my 1 hander I can MS and Slam in D stance and still put out decent DPS). AND I still get flurry procs in D stance.

It is certianly NICE to retain 25 rage when switching stances. But after respeccing back and forth 2 times a week last season I think I tried every viable MS warrior spec there is and this it my only question left.

[Windwalk]

Just a random thought...but isn't there a mechanic that keeps flurry from generating additional rage?

I thought I read that somewhere.

[Annihilate]

In my battlegroup (reckoning) DPS burst teams are way too common of a sight, and usually good teams at that so surviving has to be my number 1 priority. This is why I'm switching from bloodmoon to stormherald as soon as possible.

I look at how many fights I've lost based on my team being OOM vs how many times it's been because I died prematurely because my healers are sh!tty and I die with 50% mana, and it's a no brainer.

And thats just talking about 5v5, in 2v2 and 3v3 it's a no brainer that your survivability is way more important than the damage you put out, your biggest enemy will be double / tri dps teams in those brackets. A lot of them have no mana / lastability, it's all about surviving short term and killing them, but that can be quite a challenge vs good caster dps teams.

[Glave]

Just a random thought...but isn't there a mechanic that keeps flurry from generating additional rage?

I thought I read that somewhere.

I'm talking about more rage through faster hits over the course of a battle. Not more rage directly from flurry.

[Rhaegyn]

TM is nice to have, but is a lot more situational that flurry. Against 4 dps teams, if you need to spell reflect you're going to be taking so much damage you'll be shooting up above 25 rage quickly after switching stances it won't matter that much. The times that it is useful are when you see some type of CC being cast on you, or when a mage is charging up a crit frostbolt+ice lance.

I prefer flurry as a constant dps increase.

[JarL]

Without replying directly to the thread, I want to point out first that you are referring to the 30 point talent Blood Frenzy, not Blood Craze the fury 10 point talent. A lot of you seem to be getting a little confused at that.

In 2v2 and 3v3 SR is absolutely essential, so TM is a must. In 5v5 I would go the opposite way with it and state that 31/30 is probably your best bet. That really is all there is to it. An aside to that, 31/30 for 5v5 just got even more appealing with the WF change.

[Glave]

Without replying directly to the thread, I want to point out first that you are referring to the 30 point talent Blood Frenzy, not Blood Craze the fury 10 point talent. A lot of you seem to be getting a little confused at that.



Wow.

I'm stupid.

That is all.

I'll fix it asap.

[Pentragon]

I simply can't live without TM. I switched specs for season 2 going from 33/28 to 33/25/3 and against the fairly common 4 dps team's being able to instantly spell reflect has saved my arse on quite a few occassions. Now its just a matter of working on my Intervene usage =/.

[Alef]

Spell reflect can be used very frequently and not only when you get focus fired. Ever reflected a sheep? When your are being kited have, noone in range a timed use of spellreflect on a cast you see coming is always a good thing.
Also , reflecting the first casts against Gib teams is always better than reflecting when you reach 50 % hp. + gives a lot more margin to play with them with intervene, reflect, intercept, ms, hamstring when your under heavy dps. I mean , when your focus fired, stance dancing is better than being stuck is def stance.

[Ayas]

I thought about all the other talents and I am settled on TM. I felt like I wasn't doing as much damage as I should in some games so I considered flurry and stuff, but I found that TM actually can help my overall damage by a lot.

Basically what I now do is set a focus on the teams mage, and since I'm a prime target for sheep. I just try to keep an eye on him while I do what I need to do and spell reflect his polys. So far I've been sheeped a lot less and the mage tends to get dispelled after a good 5-6 secs since the other team doesn't really see it comming and prioritizes healing, so my spell reflect goes back up on CD. It also helps a lot on 4 DPS teams when you get KS'd in the open you have to trinket and spell reflect right away or you'll drop.

Disarm also is very handy. If anything, I would consider a 33/25/3 dropping blood frenzy for imp slam. I think with a s2 weapon or better imp slam > execute in a lot of cases if you know how to position yourself right.

[yoyoyoyo]

Just a random thought...but isn't there a mechanic that keeps flurry from generating additional rage?

I thought I read that somewhere.

I'm talking about more rage through faster hits over the course of a battle. Not more rage directly from flurry.

i was under the impression that while flurry was up you generate proportionally less rage since BC. ie 15% flurry and each hit generates 15% less rage. so if this is in fact correct i dont see how flurry effects rage gen at all.

[Glave]

Ok guys time for an update on this thread.

After transfering to Tichondrius and watching Screwface(http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tichondrius&n=Screwface) duel and talking to him a bit, I've gone 33/25/3, and I don't think I will ever go back.

He taught me how to 1v1 frost mages and it is simply amazing. I no longer feel like logging out and deleting my warrior when I 1v1 frost mages.

Now I just need to find new teams!

[Ayas]

I can beat most frost mages, but really good frost mages are still impossible. If you ever go to test, try and find a undead mage named printzor. Basically you'll be kited to death worse than you ever have been. Decent to substandard frost mages are doable, but good ones can deadzone CoC kite you and it doesnt suffer from DR so you can't do much. It also leaves you rage starved for spell reflects eventually leaving you open to full rank frost bolts.

Anyways. Why did you decide to pick up imp slam over blood frenzy? I feel that imp slam is nice to have but there are still too little situations where you can use it. In high rated games everyone has so much resil that its rare to be able to keep up ms and ww and still have spare rage while keeping stuff hamstrung and pummeled.

[Oowafas]

Ok guys time for an update on this thread.

After transfering to Tichondrius and watching Screwface(http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tichondrius&n=Screwface) duel and talking to him a bit, I've gone 33/25/3, and I don't think I will ever go back.

He taught me how to 1v1 frost mages and it is simply amazing. I no longer feel like logging out and deleting my warrior when I 1v1 frost mages.

Now I just need to find new teams!

Not to completely hijack the subject, but did you manage to speak with him about weapon specs? I'm just wondering why he'd pick axes above all the others. (If you could send me a PM that's fine to avoid derailing the thread, w/e works though.)

[Ayas]

On paper there is no reason to get axes, but I can see logic behind it.

The only time you really kill people is when you get crit chains, axes help get crit chains. Single crits or extra attacks that happen a couple times a minute isn't what kill people. Pretty much no matter how high your DPS is, it can be healed through. However when you get chain crits; that crit string makes you have a temporary window to get people low enough to die. After all you cant predict crits, you can predict sustained DPS though so healing sustained is easier than sporadic.

[Tyreke]

Without replying directly to the thread, I want to point out first that you are referring to the 30 point talent Blood Frenzy, not Blood Craze the fury 10 point talent. A lot of you seem to be getting a little confused at that.

In 2v2 and 3v3 SR is absolutely essential, so TM is a must. In 5v5 I would go the opposite way with it and state that 31/30 is probably your best bet. That really is all there is to it. An aside to that, 31/30 for 5v5 just got even more appealing with the WF change.
I haven't tried 31/30 in awhile, Im not sure that 2 more points in flurry would make up for losing 2nd wind. 2nd wind is just so nice to have, and it also really helps in 5v5 arena, when you're not getting attacked at all, but the other team is stunning and rooting, nova'ing you, so that helps build up your rage and keep you topped off.

[Oowafas]

On paper there is no reason to get axes, but I can see logic behind it.

The only time you really kill people is when you get crit chains, axes help get crit chains. Single crits or extra attacks that happen a couple times a minute isn't what kill people. Pretty much no matter how high your DPS is, it can be healed through. However when you get chain crits; that crit string makes you have a temporary window to get people low enough to die. After all you cant predict crits, you can predict sustained DPS though so healing sustained is easier than sporadic.

You can't predict sword spec procs either, and they can crit on top of being an extra swing. I see what you're saying and it makes sense, but doesn't an extra swing make more? I guess we'll always probably have different opinions on it :).

[Ayas]

With the influx of 4 DPS teams, I still say you need TM. I can't tell you how many times I lived with 300 or less life and survived by spell reflecting something. I also got pretty good at spell reflecting mages poly while I'm DPSing a different target. It throws the other team off.

[goodolarchie]

I Played around with 3/5 flurry for a while mostly due to being spec/geared for 5's while not facing many 4 DPS teams. TM is huge for 2's, some practice and you can basically spell reflect as easily as you could pummel, except from range. Reflecting a sheep, cyclone, UA etc. is game breaking in 2v2. I don't think TM is needed for 5's even with many 4dps teams, but there are times when TM has one games. I WW the focused target, a rogue dodges, I overpower the rogue and have enough rage now to MS, DPS switches fast and the rogue dies with only 1-2 heals on him. This isn't possible otherwise.

So really, if 2/3's are your concern, your real choices are choosing blood frenzy vs imp slam etc.

[Injunfeller]

tactical mastery is next to useless post spell reflect nerf. Before the nerf it was awesome..spell immunity for 3 seconds...ample time for any healer to get a big heal off. These days, spell reflect is a garbage pve ability at best...I love tactical mastery, but I love those points elsewhere too much for arena.

So it comes down to blood frenzy vs. flurry...I think it largely depends on your team and how comfortable you are with your rage generation. Generally, blood frenzy doesn't quite get utilized as much as flurry, at least for me. 4% extra static damage is great, but I always felt rage starved. With flurry, you have a reasonable consistent flow of rage coming in. Although there are other factors involved in the decision that I do not wish to get into (weapon type, spd, crit level), I do spec into it every so often for research purposes.

As for Imp. Slam...lol, no offense but slam for pvp is garbage..perhaps it works better for some, than others. It's two points wasted in my opinion. Those points could go into commanding presence or some other static damage modifier that will deliver consistent numbers. Try spamming heroic strike, it simply does a much better job, especially with PH...that and if you have access to windfury it can actually proc off of it.

[Phiers]

You mentioned on page 1 that you can MS and slam with the 1h.

Slamming with a 1her's pretty damn horrible, especially since when you're being focused, you'll want to be moving out of LoS of the people kicking your ass, not standing there hitting with your 1her for 450 dmg.

[yoyoyoyo]

comparing slam to heroic strike... yeah that makes sense

[goodolarchie]

It does make sense, they are both rage dumps for different specs. I.e. taking down a 2x dps team quickly in which rage is out of the question. Imp slam is better in this case where you are being fed rage and can also get stun procs etc., but using HS, especially improved can really prove useful in many situations considering how hard it can crit with impale + meta and can be queue'd on the run. I'm not slamming slam, but the two are comparable as effictive rage dumps for different situations.