Arena Tournament - Blizzard Feedback: 5/5/08

[Tyveris]

Thread Summary:

1) Suggestion: Do not apply the 150 rating team change penalty if the team does not have any games played. This will allow you to get a new team started and add all six players to the lineup.

2) The general consensus is that there does not need to be a rating restriction to play on the TR.

3) There are some missing items/enchants that should probably be hotfixed in for the second qualification round if possible (15 agil to gloves, 24 AP to bracers, Honor Heal/Resil Trinket, Stormherald, etc.).

4) PvE gear: Opinions are mixed, but it seems like a majority of people feel like PvE gear should be limited or removed. The problem it is causing is that some classes get a much larger benefit from having access to it than other classes. Even though everyone has access to the same gear, it still changes the playing field in a way that doesn't promote competition but adds another element of randomness. There was a good thread about it here as well: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6214121514&sid=1

5) The armory tends to get bugged after the reset. It would be nice if it could be wiped clean between session so you have an accurate picture of where you stand. Also, anything that showed the information real-time and in game would be great.

6) Perception has a very large outcome in a lot of match ups. This could be because of the large amount of rogues and druids. There were no real suggestions on what do to about other than just consider what a large impact it seems to be having on game play.

[Tyveris]

1) Do not apply the 150 rating team change penalty if the team does not have any games played. This will allow you to get a new team started and add all six players to the lineup. (Suggested by Pigvomit (http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=19375))

2) The use of PvE gear should be reevaluated. It tends to have a great benefit for some classes and not at all for others. Considering it is a PvP tournament, I personally would like to see all PvE gear gone. If any class requires PvE gear, that is a balancing issue that should be addressed outside of gear.

[Grombringal]

¤We've been facing issues with arenas being bugged (can't get out without /afk), never happenend on live so I guess it's a TR bug.

¤Remove the character number limitation.

¤Some enchants/items are missing, they could have hotfixed that but they didn't, quite stupid.


Feel free to comment, don't know if it's okay.

[Guntt]

2) The use of PvE gear should be reevaluated. It tends to have a great benefit for some classes and not at all for others. Considering it is a PvP tournament, I personally would like to see all PvE gear gone. If any class requires PvE gear, that is a balancing issue that should be addressed outside of gear.

have to agree with this, and again it's falling on pallies and rogues getting more out of it than any other classes.

broken mechanics allowing low-resil, high dps to never worry about being focused [early game, anyways] is devastating.

[Axx]

Character Restrictions. I don't play on the TournRealm but as far as I'm aware there aren't any? To be charged to play against any 1500 bracket competition is silly. A 2000 PR requirement seems fair to me.:cool:

[Limewire]

Character Restrictions. I don't play on the TournRealm but as far as I'm aware there aren't any? To be charged to play against any 1500 bracket competition is silly. A 2000 PR requirement seems fair to me.:cool:

If Blizzard did that they would probably lose like 70% of players.

[Axx]

If Blizzard did that they would probably lose like 70% of players.

Why? You're not required to play on the Tourny realm and it shouldn't be for everyone.

[Confide]

Businesses tend to aim towards making money, not stroking peoples epeens

[KennyEU]

Why? You're not required to play on the Tourny realm and it shouldn't be for everyone.

Wow, it definately should be for everyone.. there's no reason at all there should be people excluded from this.. it's not like you get any hinder by these people.

Other than that, they obviously won't win, and just add to the prize pot.. surely this can only be good?

[Kadrix]

Back on topic please.

I second the need for the missing enchants to be hotfixed in if possible. PvE gear I won't argue about, since I wear a lot of it on tr.

[Axx]

Wow, it definately should be for everyone.. there's no reason at all there should be people excluded from this.. it's not like you get any hinder by these people.

Other than that, they obviously won't win, and just add to the prize pot.. surely this can only be good?

I took the Tourny realm as a competition realm, not something a level 51 survival hunter could compete in. There should be more than a 10$ fee. I would hate to pay that and play ANY scrub teams.

[Ely]

I took the Tourny realm as a competition realm, not something a level 51 survival hunter could compete in. There should be more than a 10$ fee. I would hate to pay that and play ANY scrub teams.

by the way those scrubs are funding the prizes

[Mariko]

PVE gear FTL. Easy solution:

Don't allow people in instances with PVP gear equipped
Don't allow people to que or enter arena's with PVE gear equipped

once inside, gear cannot be changed.

[Axx]

by the way those scrubs are funding the prizes



I didn't realize signees were funding the prize pool.(Not being a smartass, i just didn't)

A tournament is a competition. <- my last statement.

This is a feedback thread I'm just throwing out my ideas, no reason to be calling names or pointing fingers ;)

[Magus]

should be open to all countries imo cus my 2 partners live in Jordan and some place called faroe islands so they couldnt participate :(

[Ely]

I didn't realize signees were funding the prize pool.(Not being a smartass, i just didn't)

A tournament is a competition. <- my last statement.

This is a feedback thread I'm just throwing out my ideas, no reason to be calling names or pointing fingers ;)

apologies, edited my post then <3

i agree with this being a competition, but i think a tournament should be open no matter who wants to compete. closed/limited competitions are a dumb concept (hi sponsored teams at dreamhack being TERRIBLE), and there should always be a qualifier or reasonably acceptable way to compete in a tournament.

[Adori]

should be open to all countries imo cus my 2 partners live in Jordan and some place called faroe islands so they couldnt participate :(

They most likely cannot compete not due to blizzard not wanting them to. There are laws in certain countries prohibiting glambing or prize giveaways (yes this tournament counts as gambling in most places). I am sure blizzard would love to have more people compete if they could.

[Toes]

Missing enchants hotfixed and removal or at least drastic limitation of PvE gear.

[Jumpingjack]

I didn't realize signees were funding the prize pool.(Not being a smartass, i just didn't)

A tournament is a competition. <- my last statement.

This is a feedback thread I'm just throwing out my ideas, no reason to be calling names or pointing fingers ;)

And they ARENT trying to compete????

[Mionee]

I don't think PvE gear should be entirely removed as certain parts are just required (playing ele shammy = totem +55/85spelldamage), as well as trinkets (pvp trinkets suxx)

I just think certain items should be removed, or only PvE gear 1 tier below the PvP gear should be accessible in arenas.

S2 + T4 gear
S3 + T5
S4 + T6 (except azzinoth and sunwell T6)

[Adori]

S4 + T6 (except azzinoth and sunwell T6)

and Momento obviously.

[Tyveris]

Alright, I would like to start off with something I hadn't seen up already, but I feel as though something needs to be done about perception, either Blizzard should give it a small nerf, or think of a different way to incorporate a similar move. Every single team that wants to be serious pretty much has a human rogue, and even if they don't have a rogue, they have at least one human. All the best horde teams from live servers even rolled alliance just to get perception, because in those rmp mirror fights, getting the other rogue with a sap could very likely win you the game. Also, I guess I am moving on to rogues, and mainly armor penetration. I personally feel as though rogues don't need any armor penetration at all on their s3 and s4 gear, they are doing just fine in the tourney destroying people wearing pve gear. If they are specced into sub they get 500 some armor penetration, and as long as they know how to incorporate EA, they can easily have reduce a target's armor enough, especially with a faerie fire up too, that they really do not need armor penetration at all, and I am personally glad they don't have it for this tourney or it would be completely ridiculous. As stated before, the whole option for pve gear is actually a bit unsettling, and I also feel it should also be pvp gear only in the tourney. That's about all, ty.
Someone sent me this through PM. His two points were PvE gear shouldn't be allowed and Perception has become required for a lot of teams, especially RMP mirrors.

[Tyveris]

Some other things I was thinking relating to the armory and rankings.

1) The armory needs to be fixed between practice rounds. Not knowing your real stance is frustrating and to be frank, unacceptable in a tournament situation.
2) There should be a Real-Time in game display of the ladder, or at least the top twenty teams so you know up until the last moment where you stand. It would also be nice if it showed whether or not the teams were online and when they last queued.

[Ocius]

The big thing that the tournament has emphasized are racials.

Primarily... Perception. Perception alone is one of the major reasons Druid teams aren't more represented - at least on US realms (haven't been following euro). A double melee team with a human rogue can rip a Druid apart before the Druid's team even gets to play. RMP can do similar, but since the Warlock is often a better (i.e. safer) target for them it isn't as much of an issue in that match-up. Regardless, the point is that Perception literally changes the outcome of the game in a way that no other racial can. It opens up opportunities that wouldn't normally be there (i.e. kill the druid while he's still trying to stealth into a good position) and necessitates that any team with a Rogue have it to prevent theirs from getting Sapped against other Rogue teams.

Some other racials that have been shown to be disproportionately strong (at least in the 3s environment):
Priests: Stoneform, Desperate Prayer, Chastise. There's a reason 90% of Priests are Dwarf. They get the best true racial for the class (remove Viper Sting/Rogue Poisons) as well as the best Priest racials. Chastise can create a lot of situations that wouldn't exist without it: Forcing a Druid to use a GCD to shift away from them, forcing another healer to take a Mana Burn, etc... And Desperate Prayer is obviously incredible, specially when combined with Stoneform (full stack of Wound and in trouble = Stoneform + Prayer).
Druid: War Stomp. The only reason this is so strong for Druids is because we don't need to drink much in 3s and having what amounts to a free "out" every 2 mins is crucial. Specially against human Rogues.
Warlocks: Orc Stun Resist and Blood Frenzy. Stun Resist makes Rogue comps slightly easier 15% of the time, as a resisted Kidney Shot can severely limit their ability to burst you down. And Blood Frenzy clearing a 5 stack of Wound, allowing Abolish Poison to instantly remove Crippling and allow kiting, is incredible.


The only other major complaint I have is about PvE gear. I recognize that some classes "need" PvE gear to compete. Paladins, for example, I understand allowing access to PvE gear (though I think most would prefer if the Paladin PvP gear was changed to be desirable...). The majority of other classes do not need it, and therefore should not have access to it. Small things like Trinkets, Idols, and maybe a few Rings should be allowed; but PvE gear on the scale that it is currently allowed on the TR is ridiculous for an Arena tournament.

Oh, and add in the missing enchants. 15 Agility to gloves, 24 AP to bracers, etc...
And the Honor Resil/Healing trinket. Even though very few would use it, the fact that PvE gear was allowed in absurd amounts and yet they overlooked an Honor trinket is a little silly.

[Quincy]

make the tournament open to all countries (so just to all wow subscribers)I think it would allow more competition since there are are good players left out now.

[Bruaigne]

make the tournament open to all countries (so just to all wow subscribers)I think it would allow more competition since there are are good players left out now.

This isn't possible due to some country's gambling laws

[Earrl]

I think Ocius hit it on the head with his post. I definitely think that Perception is WAY too strong. Every team is rolling around with Humans. Human Rogues, Human Mages, Human Warriors, Human Paladins...they're everywhere.

Certainly have to do a better job itemizing certain classes here for the Arena with their Arena Gear. Paladins are majorly lacking (might need to take a look at some talents/abilities there too honestly) in terms of prowess when it comes to gear. Rogues are also certainly ridiculous when they can itemize optimally, and their talents/abilities allow this...these certainly need to be looked at.

[Sylo]

Certainly have to do a better job itemizing certain classes here for the Arena with their Arena Gear. Paladins are majorly lacking (might need to take a look at some talents/abilities there too honestly) in terms of prowess when it comes to gear. Rogues are also certainly ridiculous when they can itemize optimally, and their talents/abilities allow this...these certainly need to be looked at.

I would have to agree with on the rogue gear issue...i think its clear to see that there is no need for armor pen for rogues....even with s2 gear on the TR they are still a very powerful force. Then season after season there dps goes up and up....i can't wait till s4!! .......

[Windwalk]

Perception is not "required" in MPR mirriors. I would go as far to say that triple undead has an advantage over dwarf/gnome/human. Both rogues are pre-vanishing, so the undead rogue just needs to open before his vanish is gone. If the mages are going invis, he needs to hang back until there's 10 seconds left on invis and then pre-vanish.

The problem isn't PvE gear, imo. It's cheat death. If there was no cheat death, I wouldn't mind rogues in t5. Because if they screwed up and got gibbed, they'd actually die. Because of cheat death, PvE gear is broken though.

[Ocius]

Perception is not "required" in MPR mirriors. I would go as far to say that triple undead has an advantage over dwarf/gnome/human. Both rogues are pre-vanishing, so the undead rogue just needs to open before his vanish is gone. If the mages are going invis, he needs to hang back until there's 10 seconds left on invis and then pre-vanish.

So having to essentially waste a Vanish before the fight has even started due to a racial isn't a problem?

Regardless of whether it gives you a Sap or not, the presence of Perception gives you a lot of freedom against non-Human teams. The fact that your Rogue has to pre-Vanish just to avoid it is retarded. And why would the Rogue on the Human team bother pre-Vanishing if he saw it was triple undead?

[Windwalk]

I don't think you understand. Both rogues HAVE to pre vanish. If your human rogue doesn't, he will get sapped by a vanished undead rogue.

I think it's retarded too. But the fear break is a bigger advantage imo, because regardless of racials, both rogues must pre vanish.

[Ocius]

Since I don't have any actual experience with RMP mirrors or much as RMP in general, I trust you to know more about the matchups than I would. It's just that, conceptually, I have trouble getting around the idea of pre-Vanishing being a necessity against non-Human teams. As a Druid I have little-to-no problem avoiding Rogues without Perception. So from my perspective, I don't see why a Rogue couldn't simply take a wide path around and Shadow Step in to get the opener instead of blowing a Vanish. I may be(and probably am) wrong in my assumption, but that's where I'm coming from.

But regardless of the intricacies of RMP mirrors or rogue/x/x vs rogue/x/x in general, Perception is still an absurdly powerful racial. It has a phenomenal effect on Druids: if a Rogue catches a Druid in stealth with 0 hots up and his (the rogue's) team is ready to throw the necessary damage/CC into the druid/druid's team, you can easily force every cooldown the Druid has right from the beginning. I can almost guarantee you the Druid had to use either his PvP trinket or NS - if not both - to get out alive (if he even got out alive...). He's also likely in a pretty terrible position as his prime concern was getting himself out of harm's way. So even if you don't kill him, that gives you a huge advantage when you swap to the "normal" kill target.

[Celnathor]

Someone sent me this through PM. His two points were PvE gear shouldn't be allowed and Perception has become required for a lot of teams, especially RMP mirrors.

I'm not sure the problem with Perception is perception itself, so much as overall class balance. When the top teams are utterly dominated by teams with rogues on them(and druids do very well too), perception becomes a must-have to counter rogues(and druids). If rogues weren't so utterly ubiquitous/dominant, I'm not certain perception would be "required" to the same extent, and other things like stoneform/escape artist/WOTF would be more popular.

[Windwalk]

We play with a human on TR, and we thought we could get away without vanishing against UD mirrors too. It just doesn't work, you'll get sapped sometimes, which is game over.

If you're having trouble getting taken out of the stealth, rush the other team. That's what most of the better druid/lock/x teams that we've played do. They give us no opportunity to find the druid.

[Neokrebs]

Enchants and the amount of pve gear is saddening.

[Iden]

Upddate the season 2 glove bonuses to have the same as season 3 (as they were changed for some classes to be more useful.)

[Virsath]

The use of PvE gear should be reevaluated. It tends to have a great benefit for some classes and not at all for others. Considering it is a PvP tournament, I personally would like to see all PvE gear gone. If any class requires PvE gear, that is a balancing issue that should be addressed outside of gear.
Excluding trinkets I should hope. :X

[Thoranous]

PvE gear in Arena needs to go. Plain and simple. Some classes benefit way too much from the gear. It's simply not fair.

[Woofles]

PVE gear FTL. Easy solution:

Don't allow people in instances with PVP gear equipped
Don't allow people to que or enter arena's with PVE gear equipped

once inside, gear cannot be changed.
Or instead of making silly limitations for gear they could remove stamina from PvE gear, balancing encounters around dpsers and healers not having that much health and more of other stats to compensate. This will make PvP gear useless in PvE as the large amount of the item budget spent on stamina is wasted, and will really make people in PvP wearing PvE gear much more squishy.

[Disparity]

deep depth explaination why certain states cant play like mine

[Akkin]

deep depth explaination why certain states cant play like mine

Or certain EU countries...would be neat to create a list with accepted countries before the tournament starts too. Adding countries days after the practice season has already started seems kinda...unprofessional. Same goes for being able to inscribe and pay for the tournament while your account details display an adress that doesn't allow it to participate.

[Virsath]

Or instead of making silly limitations for gear they could remove stamina from PvE gear, balancing encounters around dpsers and healers not having that much health and more of other stats to compensate. This will make PvP gear useless in PvE as the large amount of the item budget spent on stamina is wasted, and will really make people in PvP wearing PvE gear much more squishy.

I think this would become problematic with pom/pyro mages and eleshamans, particularly in 2s, where they could instagib one person then LoS while their partner fought. Or, if they died, so long as they dropped someone, they could just team up with a good 1v1 class and just let their partner go to town.

I've considered ideas like this, but it just doesn't seem practical. Hell, look at T6 shstep rogues. Imagine that, but several times stronger, with a 41 yard range, and ice block.

[Thoranous]

I think this would become problematic with pom/pyro mages and eleshamans, particularly in 2s, where they could instagib one person then LoS while their partner fought. Or, if they died, so long as they dropped someone, they could just team up with a good 1v1 class and just let their partner go to town.

I've considered ideas like this, but it just doesn't seem practical. Hell, look at T6 shstep rogues. Imagine that, but several times stronger, with a 41 yard range, and ice block.

Wait what? Are you comparing a Mage in T6 to a rogue in T6?

[Thoranous]

One more point about the TR. I know I stated before PvE gear has to go. Really the only reason I say that is Rogues. Cheat death is way too strong with PvE gear. The amount of escapes/cooldowns rogues have are insane. Rogues are the ultimate PvP class. Rogues have no real reason to fear either. They are allowed to get away with wearing gear that increases their damage two-fold while suffering no consequences. Outlasting a rogue in PvE gear is damn near impossible especially when they are able to stay on whatever target they want long enough to kill them every time.


I did a poll amongst this forum, wow forums, and a couple other popular WoW websites and found out most rogues feel their class has no real hard counter to it. In fact it's the only class that can say that. Rogues are either the pinnacle of balance or overpowered, depending on who you are. Devs, you have to find out a way to balance the power of other classes. Inconsistencies with some classes make them unable to compete on the highest level with the same ease as others. That's my biggest concern honestly. Game balance is still horrid.

[faction]

I made a living in the practice phase farming rmp mirrors by gibbing 90 resil rogues. I do nothing but attacks rogues first in 3v3 on live.

It's really not half as bad as you claim.