Season 4 Requirements and Points Eligibility

[Tyveris]

New Rating Rules:
1) If a character’s personal rating is more than 150 points below the team rating, they will earn points based on their personal rating instead of the team rating. This means that a player cannot join a highly rated team and begin earning points based purely on the pre-established rating of the team before they joined it. They'll need to compete, improve, and gain a personal rating worthy of the points they would receive.

2) If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the team’s rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating. This means that players cannot join a highly rated team and immediately face highly rated opponents, easily and quickly bringing their personal rating up. Instead they'll need to again compete, improve, and earn their rating.

3) UPDATE: If a team does not enter an arena match that is starting they will lose points equal to the amount that would have been deducted if they had played and lost. This change makes it less viable to participate in illegitimate team match-ups by requiring every game be played; not just those that are against a team's desired opponent.

Season 4 Arena Gear:
Shoulders: 2200
Weapon: 2050
Head: 1700
Chest: 1600
Legs: 1550
Gloves: None
Offhand: None

Season 4 Honor Gear:
Boots: 1700
Ring: 1650
Bracers: 1575
Belt: None
Neck: None
Trinket: None

Old Season 3 Arena Gear:
Shoulders: 1950
Weapons: 1800

Reason for the Changes:
The changes to the rating requirements for these items reflect the nature of the items, their power, and the relative difficulty that should be had when attempting to obtain them. These items are comparable to those found in the newest 25 person raid zone, Sunwell Plateau, and should therefore also feel very challenging to obtain.

Source: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5973993258&sid=1

[syztem]

Wow I never expected that at all. That's actually pretty brutal requirements.

[Vexo]

This is so GG

[Tyveris]

Alright, now waiting for the "This is what you do with your extra 20,000 arena points you will accumulate but have nothing to spend it on" announcement. Hopefully the rating requirement for honor gear means there will be some sort of conversion.

[Nikuna]

2) If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the team’s rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating. This means that players cannot join a highly rated team and immediately face highly rated opponents, easily and quickly bringing their personal rating up. Instead they'll need to again compete, improve, and earn their rating. [B]


Is it just me or is this a really retarded change? As if people weren't whining enough about high rated people being at low rating, we will now be forced to be there if we wanna play in other teams?

[Optimuus]

I kinda like them spacing it out. Before it felt like Christmas when you would get all your gear on the day season 3 came out then get your weopon and shoulders 2-3 weeks later, then you have really no incentive other than pride to play until the last 3 weeks of the season. In this way it will space out the items a little bit more, which is something I kind of liked in raiding. When you got that 2nd piece of the day it made the first feel a little less special. Overall the personal rating stuff hopefully doesn't screw over legitimate (non-team selling) teams.

[syztem]

Is it just me or is this a really retarded change? As if people weren't whining enough about high rated people being at low rating, we will now be forced to be there if we wanna play in other teams?

that change is pretty gay, guess I just won't team hop ever that's all.

Picking up a player at a high rating is really going to hurt that team too, being forced to grind for 0-5 pts until you even get a chance to play equal ratings is retarded...

[syztem]

I can't believe they put PR on honor items lollllllllll

[Jumpingjack]

I guess, req for gladiator in season 4 will go up with these changes. Less people will care to play arena - because with their 1300 rating they cant get items anyway.

[Ascetic]

Is it just me or is this a really retarded change? As if people weren't whining enough about high rated people being at low rating, we will now be forced to be there if we wanna play in other teams?

Yeah. Sucks for the people that are already 2k+ and team hop to help people or w/e and sucks for the people below 2k that will be forced to see high rated players.

And lol @ the PR requirements for honor gear. That just strikes me as hilarious. I figured it was only a matter of time before arena gear had PR requirements, but honor gear too? lol.

[Jullis]

If your a team with little to no counters, wouldn't it be beneficial to play lower raited teams to get a higher overall team raiting?

[syztem]

Every team has counters, and risking getting randomed for 30 isn't really fun.

I can see some people doing this to farm 2 pt teams all night I guess

[Magdain]

The queue and arena point gain system are terrible and completely kill any desire to play.

It's now impossible to leave a team because you won't get shit for points, and when you rejoin your old team you'll have to fight 0 point team wins until you get your pr up. It's pretty hilarious because as Nikuna pointed out, if somebody leaves a high rated team and rejoins, they get to play through the 1500 bracket again fully geared. They've also tripled the time these geared players stay in the bracket.

Looks like I have a new hobby. Leaving and rejoining high rated teams just to fight kids in the 1500s without having to pay a team fee. Thanks Blizz!

[somaface]

Good change imo

[syztem]

The queue and arena point gain system are terrible and completely kill any desire to play.

It's now impossible to leave a team because you won't get shit for points, and when you rejoin your old team you'll have to fight 0 point team wins until you get your pr up. It's pretty hilarious because as Nikuna pointed out, if somebody leaves a high rated team and rejoins, they get to play through the 1500 bracket again fully geared. They've also tripled the time these geared players stay in the bracket.

Looks like I have a new hobby. Leaving and rejoining high rated teams just to fight kids in the 1500s without having to pay a team fee. Thanks Blizz!

Why the hell would you intentionally want to fight them? If you want to retard smash, join an av or something.

I personally hate leveling teams, killing idiots is extremely boring.

[dakrin]

I'm glad that other people agree that these changes are retarded.

I love team-hopping. I have about 5 different people I regularly play 2v2 with every week. I really enjoy being able to arena with people anytime I login and not have to wait for someone logging in. Maybe i'm the minority in this respect, but I see these changes are being short-sighted and not very well thought out. I think it will hurt everyone but those who are hard-core and stay with the same team every week in the upper brackets.

[Ascetic]

Good change imo

I'm not so sure the new rules will actually solve the inherent problem with point selling teams: lower rated players often faced 2k+ players leveling their point selling teams.

High rated players who leave their teams and rejoin will now be forced to que up against much lower rated teams.

[Levidian]

Why the hell would you intentionally want to fight them? If you want to retard smash, join an av or something.

I personally hate leveling teams, killing idiots is extremely boring.

Yep when my 5v5 team swapped around a few members I wanted to reroll so we could learn the new team setup. It was a good idea in the long run but it was hard to talk a couple people on my team into doing it because they hate playing horrible teams. You get nothing out of it until you start getting high again and I agree but yea 1 reroll in an entire season isn't a big deal.

[tristantio]

I enjoy selling points and team hopping but I think these are good changes.

Honestly you should have a team and be with it constantly, not have umpteen teams power leveled up to 2k just sitting there with some 1500 personal rating person holding it.

With these changes it will make the teams more meaningful, because you'll either stick to a team (therefore your PR will be the same as the team rating) or you will just form completely new teams if you want to start playing with a new friend.

[Ultimecia]

Reason for the Changes:
The changes to the rating requirements for these items reflect the nature of the items, their power, and the relative difficulty that should be had when attempting to obtain them. These items are comparable to those found in the newest 25 person raid zone, Sunwell Plateau, and should therefore also feel very challenging to obtain.



Yet it's ok for PvE guilds to sell BT items to players who couldn't clear Kara? Where's the fairness there eh?

[tristantio]

My favorite part of this is that making a new team and leveling someone's personal rating legitly just became a much better business, since you can't win trade games on a 2100 team with another 2100 team to power up personals (due to all the people being power leveled having 1500 PR), meaning people will want to legitly level up a new team to their required PR for whatever item they want.

Now that more items require more PR, I can easily see more people wanting to buy PR power level. Makes me glad I've got a couple different classes to use. :D

[Levidian]

Yet it's ok for PvE guilds to sell BT items to players who couldn't clear Kara? Where's the fairness there eh?

Those players still had to participate in the raid. Which means they pulled their weight or got carried depending on how you look at it :P

[Seventhsyn]

So now once the initial set of glads power their way up to 2200 and get full s4 when they start team swapping therenow is even MORE of a poorly designed system holding them in the lower rated brackets than what point selling creates...

Half of the problem with win trading from many people's perspective was high rated, high geared players stuck in the lower bracket where they shouldnt be, and now Blizzard has basically tremendously increased the rate at which youll see them.

Random 2300x player leaves his 2300 team, then rejoins. Now said 2300 team is queing at a freaking sub 2k rating... and since the gear disparity is ever WORSE, the bad pairing will be even more evident.

I think blizzard just really alienated a majority of their casual pvp players.

Trist is dead on as well, now the lower level brackets are going to be completely overpopulated by high rated players.

[Levidian]

My favorite part of this is that making a new team and leveling someone's personal rating legitly just became a much better business, since you can't win trade games on a 2100 team with another 2100 team to power up personals (due to all the people being power leveled having 1500 PR), meaning people will want to legitly level up a new team to their required PR for whatever item they want.

Now that more items require more PR, I can easily see more people wanting to buy PR power level. Makes me glad I've got a couple different classes to use. :D

I can see people charging ridic amounts of gold to form a new team and PL PRs and then forming their "gladiator" teams toward the end of the season. Probably start happening a couple months after S4 drops when the high end players will have all their S4 gear done.

[Levidian]

It was listed earlier and I thought it was a decent idea to help curb team hopping.

If you play a game on a team you're stuck on that team for the week. They could assign team IDs just like raid IDs that keep players from joining a different raid group for example.
If you play 1 game on a team you get assigned to that teams TeamID and team IDs reset on a weekly basis just like raids.

[tristantio]

Yet it's ok for PvE guilds to sell BT items to players who couldn't clear Kara? Where's the fairness there eh?

Selling PVE items requires the PVE guild to still execute the raid encounter successfully.

Selling arena points / wintrading personal rating requires the buyer to do nothing other than lose 3 games or join into the win trade games.

On the PVE raids they are pretty much 24 manning the 25 man encounter. In arena I don't see a 5v5 team taking a point buyer into their roster (which would effectively mean they were doing 4v5).

The only legit form of PR selling (making a new team with the PR buyer and playing with him until he gets his rating) will still work now, and will be even better money.

[Magdain]

Why the hell would you intentionally want to fight them? If you want to retard smash, join an av or something.

I personally hate leveling teams, killing idiots is extremely boring.

Because their bitching has made it impossible for me to actually play with friends, even when it's justified.

"AHMAGAWD ALL WE FIGHT ARE FULL SEASON 3 PLAYERS AT 1800"

Yeah, my s3 shoulders are the reason we're winning when my partner has 50 resilience, not the fact that you're terrible. So now, due to this change which causes a self-fulfilling prophecy, they actually will be fighting a full s4 2200 team.

Well, it will be fun for me since they've taken away my perfectly fair and reasonable way of having fun previously.

[syztem]

Because their bitching has made it impossible for me to actually play with friends, even when it's justified.

"AHMAGAWD ALL WE FIGHT ARE FULL SEASON 3 PLAYERS AT 1800"

Yeah, my s3 shoulders are the reason we're winning when my partner has 50 resilience, not the fact that you're terrible. So now, due to this change which causes a self-fulfilling prophecy, they actually will be fighting a full s4 2200 team.

Well, it will be fun for me since they've taken away my perfectly fair and reasonable way of having fun previously.

You're a total douche bag if you are trying to "punish" lower bracket people for the change.

Having fun should be playing against equal skilled and geared players who have good competitive games. No challenge = No fun.

[tristantio]

It was listed earlier and I thought it was a decent idea to help curb team hopping.

If you play a game on a team you're stuck on that team for the week. They could assign team IDs just like raid IDs that keep players from joining a different raid group for example.
If you play 1 game on a team you get assigned to that teams TeamID and team IDs reset on a weekly basis just like raids.

I think what they've added is a fairly good solution.

Lets assume I'm trying to power level 3 different people to a 2050 personal rating for the weapon.

If we get the team to 1900 and then I leave to go play on one of the other guy's teams, when I rejoin the average personal rating is now (1500+1900)/2, or 1700. This means that we'd have to queue up and play against 1700 rated teams, risking almost 20+ points per loss to the team rating and my partner's personal rating, while only gaining at most 5 points for his rating (mine would be irrelevant since I wouldn't need the personal rating).

See how that still curbs team hopping, even for personal rating selling?

[Canticle]

Until win trading is fixed and dropping queue after it pops results in a loss is back into the game the arena can still be exploited very easily.

Sure they took care of selling whole teams but there is more wrong with arena then that.

[Levidian]

I think what they've added is a fairly good solution.

Lets assume I'm trying to power level 3 different people to a 2050 personal rating for the weapon.

If we get the team to 1900 and then I leave to go play on one of the other guy's teams, when I rejoin the average personal rating is now (1500+1900)/2, or 1700. This means that we'd have to queue up and play against 1700 rated teams, risking almost 20+ points per loss to the team rating and my partner's personal rating, while only gaining at most 5 points for his rating (mine would be irrelevant since I wouldn't need the personal rating).

See how that still curbs team hopping, even for personal rating selling?

Yes, you would just have to fulfill one contract before you took on another.

[Magdain]

You're a total douche bag if you are trying to "punish" lower bracket people for the change.

Having fun should be playing against equal skilled and geared players who have good competitive games. No challenge = No fun.

You're honestly saying a s3 character + a half kara/half s1 character vs 2 characters with a mix of s2 and s3 isn't fair?

I do enjoy fair fights, and competitive games. But I play with 4 different characters on teams between 1800 and 2200, each basically representative of the skill and gear of my partner. And rating aside, playing with people who I really enjoy being around is also fun.

[syztem]

the pr changes make it atleast more difficult to win trade. It won't be stopped, but it won't be nearly as rampant.

[Virsath]

You're a total douche bag if you are trying to "punish" lower bracket people for the change.

Having fun should be playing against equal skilled and geared players who have good competitive games. No challenge = No fun.

Playing with friends is fun, too...

[Levidian]

Until win trading is fixed and dropping queue after it pops results in a loss is back into the game the arena can still be exploited very easily.

Sure they took care of selling whole teams but there is more wrong with arena then that.

Yea dropping arena queues w/o penalty is stupid. I hope the edit their changes to allow this.

If someone has to use the RR let them use the RR then queue. If you're not ready to fight don't queue. Pretty simple to me.

[Levidian]

the pr changes make it atleast more difficult to win trade. It won't be stopped, but it won't be nearly as rampant.

I just hope the Merc glad BS that happened last year is curbed some how this year. I guess you will still always be able to pay off a high rated team to boost you =(.

Maybe they should change it so the top 3 teams in each bracket get the Vengful title ?

[Krigare]

I'm glad they lowered the rating req for S3 stuff by 50 points

SUCH A MEANINGFUL CHANGE

Really I could care less about ARENA RATING requirements on gear that costs ARENA POINTS, but what is the point of putting it on gear that only costs HONOR. Do they enjoy fucking over people who only like to do BGs or something? The reqs arnt bad for someone who likes to arena but there are a LOT of people who dont like arena but like BGs. Just more bad business decisions for the sake of arenas.

[tristantio]

Yea I guess you're right, if the team is 2200+ and they invite their buyers, who all have 1500 personals, which causes them to face 1500 rated teams over and over, even if it's their other 2200 rated team full of buyers, they could get +30 personal each fight by trading back and forth like this.

I think it'll be much harder though to even get 2k+ just because as more and more scrub players quit playing (due to not being able to get anything besides gloves) what used to be 2200+ will now be 2k+.

[Levidian]

I'm glad they lowered the rating req for S3 stuff by 50 points

SUCH A MEANINGFUL CHANGE

Really I could care less about ARENA RATING requirements on gear that costs ARENA POINTS, but what is the point of putting it on gear that only costs HONOR. Do they enjoy fucking over people who only like to do BGs or something?

People that claim they only like BG's are people that tried arena failed and now claim they don't play arena because "they don't like it"

No whether or not having to arena to get all the honor gear makes sense is up for grabs.

[EleK]

I wonder if they will keep s3 vindicator's in for new 70s who can't buy the s4 boots, but would like to have something useful in that slot.

[tristantio]

To address Krigare and people who feel it shouldn't be on the honor gear etc., I'm going to quote a post from the official thread, since I couldn't have said it better:


lets be honest here - the arena system is supposed to offer 'end-game content' to this game's hardcore pvpers, who are intended to be duking it out hardcore up in the 2200-2300 bracket. the arena is not supposed to be a system where people can go from greens to black-temple level epics, and then tool around in karazhan.

if you have been doing that, i cannot blame you for acquiring the best gear possible for you, because that would be out of line for me to do so. however, please understand that the arenas are not intended to feed you epics - you are intended to earn them, just as you would by raiding. requiring that pvpers fight others and win the right to wear the best pvp gear is a great way to make sure that those who are truly skilled in pvp combat are rewarded for their efforts.

there is no reason that 'casual' play must also mean 'unskilled' play. if this happens to be the case, i should think that there is now a true incentive to gain facility and skill while playing if you truly want the gear offered in season 4. i will certainly be doing everything i can to improve myself so that i can compete on ever-higher levels of arena play, and i will be working with my arena team to do so as well.

the only thing that would prevent you from getting these items is your own skill level, frankly. if you are skilled enough, you will reap the rewards that your skills deserve.

(Posted by Martana - Kirin Tor)

[Ascetic]

I think it'll be much harder though to even get 2k+ just because as more and more scrub players quit playing (due to not being able to get anything besides gloves) what used to be 2200+ will now be 2k+.

And there's also likely to be fewer point selling teams giving away free points.

[Levidian]

It's definitely very possible that rankings won't be inflated as high which isn't a big deal I know shaman that will have all 3 of their sets completed at the very least by the end of this season, and depending on when S4 starts it will likely extend all the way until the release of WOTLK.

[Seventhsyn]

Overall I like the changes and I think they really help to push Arena closer to what it was originally meant for, alot like the post Trist quoted in a way.

I do still wish that they would create a reason to keep us pushing and competeing at the high ratings, as opposed to just restarting a team with a few weeks left and then leveling to glad.

But if this does a good enough job at keeping rating inflation down due to team power leveling, and boosting then I guess at least it will keep people pushing for 2200ish longer than the old system in place.

[tristantio]

I do think the glaring oversight they missed is win trading, as it's entirely possible now (just as much as it was in the past).

Now the play 30%/70% point buying spread is pretty much eliminated, but win trading isn't?

What I mean by the win trading thing is if you have team A and team B, both at 2300 rating with all players having 1500 personal rating:

They queue up and only join if they are facing each other, since there is no penalty for not joining the match. They will end up facing each other because they both qualify as a 1500 rated team as far as the queue goes. The only exception to this is if they actually make you fight a team with a team rating of what your PR average is, and not pair up PR average with PR average.

Team A takes a win.
Team A rating: +15 (to 2315)
Team A PRs: +30 (to 1530)
Team B rating: -15 (to 2285)
Team B PRs: -1 (to 1499)

Now for the next match Team B takes a win.
Team A rating: -15 (to 2300)
Team A PRs: -1 (to 1529)
Team B rating: +15 (to 2300)
Team B PRs: +30 (to 1529)

Keep repeating until the personals even out with the team rating.

Doesn't this seem a little stupid to anyone else?

[Canticle]

words

I gotta believe if your PR is 1500 and your queuing against 1500 rated teams, your overall team rating won't go up 15 points. Its still a 2300 rated team playing a 1500 rated team.


But you can still get in agreement with a friend both level to 2K and then your friend lets you beat them till 2200.

[Ultimecia]

Selling PVE items requires the PVE guild to still execute the raid encounter successfully.

We still have to play the arena games and win them (assuming you're 7-3ing and even if you're not there's still the effort needed to level the team in the 1st place.

Selling arena points / wintrading personal rating requires the buyer to do nothing other than lose 3 games or join into the win trade games.

In most cases buying arena points from a raiding guild requires very minimal participation on the part of the buyers. Some raiders I know even deliberately kill the buyers during fights if they'll be a liability.


On the PVE raids they are pretty much 24 manning the 25 man encounter. In arena I don't see a 5v5 team taking a point buyer into their roster (which would effectively mean they were doing 4v5).

The idea is you play 7 games and 3 buyers play 3 games together, or you let buyers in 2 teams face off against each other, you're not handicapping yourself when playing.

[Seventhsyn]

If both teams q at 1500-1600 you win 15, then next time when its your turn to lose, you lose 15. Youll never gain any ground.

The reason its possible with arena's current state is because 1 win = 30 points, 1 loss = 1 point. So you go 1-1 gain 29 points. In the new system youll go 1-1 and gain 0.

[Alethasis]

yeah overall my biggest complaint is the restraint on team hopping. I have been really enjoying playing with a bunch of different friends just for the fun of playing with them. And letting a newly transferred friend get 30% on a team so he can afford a weapon the next week kinda deal. It's not that he doesn't deserve the points, he's a great player; I just wanted to help him. I realize that you can't have both. Blizz can't distinguish between helping a friend and just selling points (unless they did a gear check) But, I guess I'm just saying it sucks. My favorite aspect is playing with a ton of friends on different teams. And to do so now we'll play at 1700 ratings. Which isn't a lot of fun. We don't improve. And ultimately because of points I'll have to reduce team hopping. I wonder if blizz checks these forums lol.

[Ultimecia]

Yea I guess you're right, if the team is 2200+ and they invite their buyers, who all have 1500 personals, which causes them to face 1500 rated teams over and over, even if it's their other 2200 rated team full of buyers, they could get +30 personal each fight by trading back and forth like this.

The reason it's possible to do this atm is because generally there aren't that many teams at 2100+ queuing during non-peak hours. With the new system it'll be harder because buyers will be matched vs 1500 rated teams, and at any given time (even like 5am) there will always be lots of 1500ish teams playing.

[Seventhsyn]

@ Trist/Ult

None of that really matters because going 1-1 against each other when your both 1500 nets you a zero gain.

Your returns are based on your PR, so the teams rating could be 5438 for all it matters. Youll still q at 1500 (assuming everyones point buying) and even if you synch up q's with the other team your facing their 1500 PR team. You can go 50-50 and youll still be at 1500 even.

[tristantio]

They can still coordinate on vent to only join when the Q pops at the exact same time can't they?

Also I may have misread it, but I thought that your gain at the end of the match is still based on your team rating, not on your rating your PR matched you with.

If it was based on the PR matched rating, then I could level a team to 2200, drop it and rejoin it at 1500 personal to play other 1500 rated teams and boost my team's rating by 15 per game.

That will be the new risk (playing a 2200 rated team when your personal is 1500) because a loss will make your team lose 30 points while a win will give +0 points to your team (only to your personal).

What I'm saying is that both the win trade teams will be 2300 rated, and still get matched with each other due to identical personal ratings.

[tristantio]

1) If a character’s personal rating is more than 150 points below the team rating, they will earn points based on their personal rating instead of the team rating. This means that a player cannot join a highly rated team and begin earning points based purely on the pre-established rating of the team before they joined it. They'll need to compete, improve, and gain a personal rating worthy of the points they would receive.

2) If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the team’s rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating. This means that players cannot join a highly rated team and immediately face highly rated opponents, easily and quickly bringing their personal rating up. Instead they'll need to again compete, improve, and earn their rating.

Alright, see what I'm trying to say here.

Section 1 deals with points at the end of the week (shutting down the 7/3), not with points being awarded at the end of each match.

Section 2 deals with matching up teams, because they assume that that 2300 team will be facing legit 1500 rated teams. However, the way it's worded implies that matching can occur based on each team's personal rating, without mentioning points awarded at the end of the match are based on that rating.

Now, if it were treated as a true 1500 rated team (and the point spread was 15 points for a win or 15 for a loss) then the win trading isn't really an issue either, but it seems to me like they might overlook it.

Who knows though.

[magnumleo]

honestly how many people actually think it's a good change? it really destroy pvp. dont forget, if there are 100teams 1550 rating, there are also 100teams 1450 rating. No newbies will still play arena when they know they cant buy gear. less noob teams means it will be harder to get 2.2k. casual players wont play bg as well. the bg queue will become longer.
it's a big joke. badges can buy so many epics nowadays but most of the pvp gears require PR.

[Arçoth]

sigh, complete and utter fail.

[Seventhsyn]

Oops yeah your right Trist.

I started reading the second part fast and I thought it was implying rating points you win were based on PR, and its referring to the arena points you earn on Tuesday updates.

Well.. then they need to freakign implement it to where you only earn points from a win based on their PR as well. Doesnt that pretty much eliminate the whole Win trading/point selling issue?

Even in my errors I produce win :P

On a seperate note. Im failing to see how a couple hundred casuals who cant break 1600 will effect me when im pushing for 2200....

[Ihqdaa]

So if ratings become more harder to get it destroys pvp?

This change will make many teams not bother with arena who were just doing it to get gear for karazhan or whatever... Those who really want to get the gear, even if they are completely newbies, can easily improve to get the PR for most gear.

I don't see a reason to hop teams with these changes as point selling is removed... if you wanna play for fun there is skirmish which i play with my friends already, though admittely it's not fun cos you meet way too easy teams but this might change in s4 if these changes go through.

Only thing that's weird to me is honor gear requiring arena ratings lol

[tristantio]

honestly how many people actually think it's a good change? it really destroy pvp. dont forget, if there are 100teams 1550 rating, there are also 100teams 1450 rating. No newbies will still play arena when they know they cant buy gear. less noob teams means it will be harder to get 2.2k. casual players wont play bg as well. the bg queue will become longer.
it's a big joke. badges can buy so many epics nowadays but most of the pvp gears require PR.

I think a lot of the people who are sub-1500 still don't have full s3, or even s2 (they tend to be in s1/old honor gear) meaning that these players can still earn points towards the outdated s3.

[Mclovln]

Until win trading is fixed and dropping queue after it pops results in a loss is back into the game the arena can still be exploited very easily.

Sure they took care of selling whole teams but there is more wrong with arena then that.
"If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the team’s rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating."

This means that players cannot join a highly rated team and immediately face highly rated opponents, easily and quickly bringing their personal rating up. Instead they'll need to again compete, improve, and earn their rating.
Its semi fixed but I can still see it happening.

[Seventhsyn]

I dont think this will stop casuals from doing 10 games a week for arena points. Dont forget they can still buy season 3 stuff which doesnt exactly suck....

It just means they cant go buy 1k points a week and grab a piece every other week or so.

[Arçoth]

I really really dislike the idea of forcing you into pretty much one team if you want decent points that week. half the fun of arena is playing new comps with friends or other pvpers.

[tristantio]

Also don't forget for every 2k+ team that rerolls and stomps through the 1500 bracket, you're pushing all those 1500 people even further down the ladder.

If the 2k+ people aren't knocking down actual teams in the 1500 to 2k range it means that it will balance out.

(The amount of 2k team stompers who won't be going through the early brackets vs the amount of people who will quit due to these changes will most likely be very proportional)

[Tyveris]

I really really dislike the idea of forcing you into pretty much one team if you want decent points that week. half the fun of arena is playing new comps with friends or other pvpers.
You still only need one serious team to stay on for points. You can then hop around for the other two.

[Magdain]

You still only need one serious team to stay on for points. You can then hop around for the other two.

That only works if the serious team you're getting points on is a new team every week...

If you have a 2100 team you've played 100% of the games on, go play games with some friends at whatever rating, then come back to your serious team for the week you're not getting shit for points because your personal rating will be significantly lower than your team rating. You're also fighting low ranked teams and your PR is not going up notably at all.

So unless you make a 1500 team and level it back to your old rating every week for a serious team, you have to choose between playing with other people and actually getting respectable points.


NEVERMIND IM AN IDIOT. You apparently mean bracket sizes. It's still stupid either way.

[Arçoth]

You still only need one serious team to stay on for points. You can then hop around for the other two.

true, but it still limits your 'availability'. especially when you only play 2 brackets like myself.

[Seventhsyn]

They could eliminate A LOT of headaches and allow us to occupy 2 different teams of the same rating. Would that REALLY hurt anything?

[syztem]

In all seriousness it just means you cant team hop for the first month of arena, after that since when do pts matter? I've got like 7 1handers bought and still have 3700 arena points....... and I missed a few weeks im pretty sure.

[dakrin]

>> Those who really want to get the gear, even if they are completely newbies, can easily improve to get the PR for most gear.


This is completely not true and is the reason this and most other changes by Blizzard in regards to arena have been flawed.

Arena is fun, not because of the gear you get, but because of the competition it provides. For me it is the true end-game for WoW. I don't have the time for hard-core pve, and i've done everything else in the game. I love pvp and arena provides constant competition and fun.

I have friend's who are amazing at pvp and good at almost every game they play, but they cannot succeed in arena on their re-rolled chars because of the gear difference. If there wasn't point selling like there is currently they would despair of ever getting enough equipment to become competitive in a reasonable amount of time. This is not to say point-selling is good, but it exists because of a fatal flaw in the arena combat: Gear imbalance.

It is great that blizzard is making the arena more "competitive" and all the pve'rs are happy that casuals can't get BT-like gear anymore, but the entrance-level because of gear imbalance is horrible and this just makes it worse.

If they fix point-selling they also need to fix it so that skilled player with crappy gear can gear up (relatively) quickly and be on a level playing field. The focus should not be on gear, it should be on competition, the part that truly makes arena fun.

[nara]

takes ages to get 2.2k

[bk]

so...when are they gonna fix 2s?

[Seventhsyn]

I guess the counter - arguement would be something along the linse of....

You can still get season 3 gear easily, and s3 gear will not be so far behind s4 that you cant compete with it. If you can compete you can get the PR to get s4, and as you upgrade to s4 if your good you can then push even higher to get the rest of your s4.

I think blizzard is just trying to make this more of a long term slow and steady upgrade process for newew players, and players who arent already on top of s3, instead of the buy points for 5 weeks and be fully capped season 3 as it is now.

In the end it all boils down into what holds subscriptions longer and how much $$ they can make.

[Tyveris]

true, but it still limits your 'availability'. especially when you only play 2 brackets like myself.
Very true. Fives is very hard to get people together for and I haven't played competitive twos in forever. I could see this being frustrating.

That being said, if they always have a TR up, that should suffice for me :)

[rms]

Blizzard will announce a massive amount of rerollers becoming druids and warriors. I see it in the future. What a terrible change.

[Ihqdaa]

Arena is fun, not because of the gear you get, but because of the competition it provides. For me it is the true end-game for WoW. I don't have the time for hard-core pve, and i've done everything else in the game. I love pvp and arena provides constant competition and fun.

Me too, this change will remove all players who don't want to improve and compete in arena but just abuse the current system to get free high level gear for other areas of the game.

I have friend's who are amazing at pvp and good at almost every game they play, but they cannot succeed in arena becuase of the gear difference. If there wasn't point selling like there is currently they would despair of ever getting enough equipment to become competitive in a reasonable amount of time. This is not to say point-selling is good, but it exists because of a fatal flaw in the arena combat: Gear imbalance.


I can't relate to the gear stuff stopping from getting at least required rating for most stuff as I was in full greens 2 months ago and still rock s1 healing weapon/wand... I started from the bottom just farming the free gear from BG's which will be s2 in s4 and enough to achieve rating for s4 items which allow you to compete at higher level etc..

[tristantio]

Dakrin everyone else had to earn the gear, why shouldn't your friends?

There is no reason your friends can't have full s3 / vindicators by now.

I have it on THREE different characters (granted, my pally is still missing the shoulders).

My warrior started off in no gear at the start of this season, I ground out the s1 honor gear on him until my eyes bled, and then with a s2 weapon + s1 honor gear I managed to get to 1940 in 2v2 with a druid partner.

Bought my s3 weapon and broke 2k, and then started finish out the rest of my s3 set on him.

My paladin was likewise as disadvantaged as far as gear goes, I had the full s1 lamellar set on her, now full s3 ornamented.

[royalsego]

oh man, so much for saving 5k for weapons immediately

2200 for shoulders, that huge epeen strokin

[Levidian]

2200 for shoulders, that huge epeen strokin

I'm looking forward to being one of only 1-3 hunters on my server that will have those =)

[Seventhsyn]

Yeah I cant wait to get my shoulders on Terenas and be 1 of like 10 total people with them, then I can listen to all the " you must play wow 15 hours a day and be 13 years old" comments.

wtb new server?

[Ihqdaa]

seventhsyn it's all "Wats ur seutp ???" in my server :) <3

[Seventhsyn]

lol yeah... I love when 1 minute after some guy says that i get the same tell from him " What combo you runnin? can u help me?"

[dakrin]

<<Dakrin everyone else had to earn the gear, why shouldn't your friends?

Cause it's not fun and takes a long time. Your eyes bled, was that fun?

[Datesta]

What is up with all this epeen stuff?

I only enjoy 5v5 and i've been playing 10 games a week since the start of s3 (Started in full s1). It's even harder to get more then 10 games (hence, we have a life... :)) We are now closing in on 2.1K and all at this rating have equal gear so no more whining of "ZOMG zombies-gladiators in 1600" which lets face it sucks. Because gear in wow means quite a deal on what your char is capable of (damage, healing, casttime, crit), this is also the reason why ppl even consider using PVE gear in arena - the gear advantage.

What i'm try to say is: Why do we need even more rating requirement? PVE is all about gear... Can we please make arena all about skills?

I'm glad that i could farm for s1 so i had a chance in arena in the start of s3. I'm glad that i didn't start my char in s4...

Sincerely

P.S - Boosting/selling points needs to be fixed. But why punish the ppl who like to play alot of diffrent setups and experiment and even in the progress punishing the common arena-dude?

P.P.S - Ppl fix your f***ing epeen. Face ppl with equal gear and pwn them with skills instead of gear...

[Seventhsyn]

This forum was made for those of us cursed with large epeens.

Keeping average people(and hell us for that matter) constantly chasing gear upgrades keeps a lot more subscriptions than just giving us all equal pvp gear and letting us go at it.

[Akagar]

I FULLY support this change. Stop Arena selling, force some high-bracket competition, offer incentive for real teams to play, and punish people for not committing to their teams. Awesome.

[Poots]

Good changes.

[renovatio]

Yet it's ok for PvE guilds to sell BT items to players who couldn't clear Kara? Where's the fairness there eh?

Notice Blizz said s4 items reflect SUNWELL items. The whole fairness in selling BT items was already corrected by the new badge vendor. No guilds will be selling Sunwell items when s4 comes out. That's the whole point.


As for the changes - I love them. The whole PR changes is basically to kill 3-7 point selling people that have like 20 teams lying around. Sure you can still "powerlevel" someone, but that actually takes some skills from the person being powerleveled. The changes also prevent people from stacking up 5k points from 1 season and buy 3/5 of the armors in the new season.

of course like some others have said, gladiator will be ever harder to get, especially in 5s.

[Teddymonster]

Notice Blizz said s4 items reflect SUNWELL items.

Reflect looks wise? I don't know what the sunwell shit looks like but anything besides those screenies of S4 gear on mmochampion making us all look like a gay Metroid would be awesome.


And on the changes, the rating stuff is great. Now I have an excuse not to help friends, woot woot. But personal rating for honor gear isn't very nice to the baddies and is ricockulous. Next thing they're going to make it so you need a 1700 rating to login to the game. A "nope sorry, you don't get to play WoW you scrub moonkin in welfare epix" message pops up on login or some shit.

[Ocius]

Here's part of a discussion from my guild forums regarding the change. Reposting here so I don't have to write a similar post out again.

Bads will just bitch that 2k is too high for weapons, people that can already attain high ratings dont care
Point sellers/PR sellers have probably already so much gold they don't care anymore
The only people this actually might make happy is raiders who complain about PvPers getting high level welfare epics. The retarded part being that arenas are open to anyone, so if a raider is complaining that they can't get welfare epics, well grats on being dumb. If its a time issue, 10 games a week is around an hour, and I'm pretty sure that most, if not all raiders can spare something like an hour before/after raids, or during a weekend. whatever

Gladiator isn't an incentive to get high ratings, its competition, when theres no competition, people don't want to play. As for titles, Marshal is the best title in the game bar Scarab Lord. Marshal or bust.

The people this really hurts is people on small BGs, like Emberstorm was 2200 is like #1 in 5s or some shit, which is completely retarded in the same way that the Quel Danas unlocking is absolutely fucking retarded for small servers, I'm glad you guys though this out SO thoroughly blizzard,lol, just keep overlooking mace stuns, blackout, imp hamstring whats up

^ this


They need to merge a couple of the battlegroups. Nightfall is pretty bad. In 2v2, there's literally only about 10 teams that are challenging for Me/Vereor or Me/Somi assuming RNG doesn't kick in (not counting counter comps, which are obviously pretty difficult with any semi-competent players). In 3v3 it's the same way. And most of the challenging teams barely queue anymore because they're already guaranteed gladiator.

S2 5s was a bit better; we had a difficult time with most top 20-30 teams. But then most of the players on the #1 S2 team transferred and a couple other teams quit 5s because their teammates transferred, rerolled, or quit, etc.

And all of the ridiculous RNG involved in Arenas makes the game frustrating, anyway. Mace Stun, Blackout, Imp Hamstring/Wing Clip are seriously gamebreaking if they proc at the right time. I can't tell you how many times an Imp Hamstring on my partners (or me when I'm on my Hunter), a Mace stun chain on me leading to death or near-death, a Blackout proc against Spriest/Rogue right after I escape the Rogue, or even something stupid like a Cyclone or Feral Charge resist (WHY CAN MELEE GET TO THE HIT CAP BUT SPELLS ALWAYS HAVE A 1% RESIST RATE?). When you do everything right but still lose games because of RNG is why high rated teams have a tendency to sit on their rating and not play. When me and Vereor were playing on Mana Burn, the potential for losing 30 rating to a mediocre 2200 Shaman/Warrior (Windfury + sword spec gibs) or a blackout-happy SPriest/Rogue made queue'ing an overly risky event.

[Levidian]

of course like some others have said, gladiator will be ever harder to get, especially in 5s.

Umm why would gladiator be harder to get. You know gladiator comes from % not from rate X-X

[Tongs]

It's about time. RIP casuals.

[Ocius]

It's about time. RIP casuals.

Being casual has next-to-nothing to do with your ability to get personal rating. It only takes about 30 wins to hit 2k undefeated. That's 3 weeks if you're playing 10 a week. 4 weeks if you lose ~10.

[tristantio]

I play WOW for about 1 hour a night (2 hours on weekends) for a total of around 9 hours a week, yet I haven't had trouble maintaining high ratings.

Then there are people that play way more than me, yet have ratings far below me.

Casual doesn't mean "sucks", it means you just play in your free time, without dropping real life activities to make a WOW appointment.

[Krazyxkill]

these requirements are to extreme, seriously. What they SHOULD do is half the ammount of points you get, so only skilled people will be able to get all their gear b4 seasons end and just keep the PR on weps and shoudlers, maybe raise the PR required for those 2.

with PR required for everything all it will do is make it so people with gold can pay for a spot on a good 3v3 or 5v5 team to get PR, i know ill be selling PR next season, the gold will be insane...

[rms]

I FULLY support this change. Stop Arena selling, force some high-bracket competition, offer incentive for real teams to play, and punish people for not committing to their teams. Awesome.

How does this create incentive? Sure, more people will play up to 2200, but that's really not the cut off rating for gladiator or anything, especially with longer seasons forth to come. So if I have 10 friends that I can 3v3 with all since they all have 5s or w/e, I shouldn't be allowed to play with them? For christ's sake what a terrible arguement

[Wumba]

I read the post - smiled and said "YES!". I actually think this is just the right thing to do, awesome job Blizz.

Now just fix wintrading please :)

[Akagar]

How does this create incentive? Sure, more people will play up to 2200, but that's really not the cut off rating for gladiator or anything, especially with longer seasons forth to come. So if I have 10 friends that I can 3v3 with all since they all have 5s or w/e, I shouldn't be allowed to play with them? For christ's sake what a terrible arguement

Arenas are about competitive play, not carrying friends.

If you want to play with friends, stick with them. If they're bad, and that's why you don't play with them, then they shouldn't have such a good player in the best gear to help their team.

It's not fair to people who are also trying to work their way up but don't have the same connections. Such an edge ruins the competitive factor.

The terrible argument is defending playing with terribad friends for "fun" and screwing up low-rated competition while you play a serious team anyway. What the hell is the point of a ladder when people can bounce around all over the place and act like it's one big BG with no penalty for it?

Arenas are rated for a reason. You are rated based on how good your team is. Someone who is fully geared and has 2k+ experience and skill has no business being below that regardless of their friends.

And really, nobody is STOPPING you from playing with your friends. If they're bad, you can't compete with them, sure. Doesn't mean you can't play with them.

The incentive it adds is for people to quit f**king around with their teams and seriously play (or not at all), because they get penalized otherwise. If they don't enjoy playing and competing, then don't; but that's no reason to ruin the lower brackets because you're bored with the upper ones.

And BTW, for all we know, 2200 might become the Gladiator cutoff if enough baddies quit because they can't move up and get any gear, reducing the rating inflation.

[Calleking]

Why the hell would you intentionally want to fight them? If you want to retard smash, join an av or something.

I personally hate leveling teams, killing idiots is extremely boring.

This :)

[Oteb]

I hate how this change kills team hopping.
This is something some ppl do occasionaly but for me its bread and butter.
I have been playing a lot with a friend who is in army. He is home every weekend for 2 daysand uUsually spends 1 of those days going out.
I can play every other weekend.
Basicly we have 1 day chance to play every other week.
In between I team hop in 3v3 playing with whoever I can play with atm around rating i need for points.
Also in second part of the season I am usually team hopping to try offspec.(like now my 3v3 is with enh spec)
For me this change will pretty much ruin the my enjoyment of arenas. Even if i get full gear after a couple weeks no team will let me join em for fun since playing 1500 rated scrubs with high risk of getting countercomped and losing 30 points.
Moreover I am quite concerned about shoulder rating requirments. Right now 2.2k is within my reach even when i play shaman. But if most of the scrubs stop playing because they cant get the gear they want 2.2 can easily become what is now 2.4k. And as much as i love shaman its not druid/rogue/priest/warrior

I am quite concerned with this change.

[Wicked]

This will make it harder to achieve high rating (2200). No ebayers for free wins :p

[Akagar]

My only concern at all is the de-inflation of ratings that may make 2.2k next to impossible for most people/combos.

[Ooz]

Yet it's ok for PvE guilds to sell BT items to players who couldn't clear Kara? Where's the fairness there eh?

good point. IDK i am just goign to find a druid and hit 2.2k pretty quick, but i see these changes as a huge bummer, it means i will make like 0 gold a week as opposed to 1-2k

[Celnathor]

My only concern at all is the de-inflation of ratings that may make 2.2k next to impossible for most people/combos.

Worst-case scenario, it ends up being a pretty vicious cycle. Teams on the bottom quit, which means average/above average teams have no one to beat on, and they drift downwards themselves and get stuck below the weapon threshold, etc.

I just don't see this as a well-thought out change. It stikes me as Blizzard pissing on many to appease a few.

[Bulzok]

Point #2 makes me sad. I have a great druid friend, and we have other friends who are all pretty good. I don't want to have to pick between them for who's going to play in a given week. Getting PR up quickly is awesome, but like Trist pointed out, this doesn't fix win trading, which is what it's aimed at.

Just bring back losing points for dropping a queue, or something similar: EG. Getting 3 "free" drops per week or something, and then have the rest cost you - we never have more disconnects than that.

[Tyveris]

Just added number 3. Looks like a fix for queue dodging.

[Fest]

I kinda like them spacing it out. Before it felt like Christmas when you would get all your gear on the day season 3 came out then get your weopon and shoulders 2-3 weeks later

It really won't be hard to hit 1700 the first day, let alone 2050 the first week.

[Finaroth]

Thanks a ton Tyveris for keeping this in a readable spot.

There are a LOT of teams that wont play their 10games/week now...GLadiator is going to be VERY small population for S4.

[InsaneSooner]

Looks like most mages wont get their shoulders...

[Vischuz]

100% win, maybe arena gear will actually mean something now

[Kahoona]

Reason for the Changes:
The changes to the rating requirements for these items reflect the nature of the items, their power, and the relative difficulty that should be had when attempting to obtain them. These items are comparable to those found in the newest 25 person raid zone, Sunwell Plateau, and should therefore also feel very challenging to obtain. If that was the case then the chest piece would require 2.2k rating........


And thank you Blizzard for requiring such high arena ratings for some recolored, regurgitated garbage.

[Gangy]

Not sure what to think about these changes... I for 1 enjoyed playing with different people and the fact that is a little harder now is kind of annoying. The change to the PR's is pretty sexy imo... No longer will everyone with +2k gold be running around in shoulders or with a weapon. The honor PR is kinda dumb but I see where Blizz is coming from. S3 gear is still there for nubs to play catch up and 1700 really isn't all that hard to hit, maybe in the first week it might be, but once everything settles down it's a cake walk if you have 2 hands and a brain.

Very glad to see queue dodging was addressed though. +1

[Alphatier]

Next thing they're going to make it so you need a 1700 rating to login to the game. A "nope sorry, you don't get to play WoW you scrub moonkin in welfare epix" message pops up on login or some shit.

Q_Q

[Ascetic]

And thank you Blizzard for requiring such high arena ratings for some recolored, regurgitated garbage.

lol, so true. The least they could do is give the shoulders a completely unique look given the high rating required.

[Finaroth]

They cant...they havent designed any new skins for a WHILE Id guess.

Mobs all are recolored skins of each others base form...armor is the same :(

[Jedi_Knight]

This is a sad day truly. All that will happen is less people playing - for some BGs, reaching 2200 will be almost impossible or would equal getting the Brutal Gladiator Title.

Terrible change just to appeal to those with elitist syndrom.

[Tahmus]

They don't give two shits about PvP gear. They've been tunnel visioning WotLK for awhile now.

[Clarity]

Imo season4 is just trash.
Would love to have the system as it is today, because people get bored of starting new teams after some time, and will stay on their ratings to play competive.

[Tremos]

Good changes, better then what I hoped for.

[Cova-]

good changes imo 1. no more win trading 2. less teamhopping 3. less scrubs in best pvp gear in game

as it should be (although teamhopping was not that bad)

[Alysana]

I can't believe this change is going through, but then again it's apparently the last season since Sunwell -should- be the last instance before WotLK is out which means it doesn't matter all that much as such due to the gear reset waiting just around the corner.

It's kinda amusing though, people have already whined like mad at the 2k requirements for shoulders and 1850 for weapons, now they're even increasing both requirements and adding more! This is also kinda going against what they had planned for arena, they wanted to make it an e-sport game and this will just cause more gaps than before.

It also ruined point selling/alt boosting but I guess that's a good thing in the end, at least you'll still be able to earn money via personal rating selling. :p

[renovatio]

Umm why would gladiator be harder to get. You know gladiator comes from % not from rate X-X

because less people will be inclined to play arena because these epics are not longer welfare epics. Heck, half of the people won't even get to buy pants! Less people = less teams. Less teams = smaller pool of teams as a % of total teams. Less teams in the gladiator range = higher ratings needed to obtain gladiator title.

[renovatio]

Reflect looks wise? I don't know what the sunwell shit looks like but anything besides those screenies of S4 gear on mmochampion making us all look like a gay Metroid would be awesome.


no, item level (quality) wise.

PS: THE PRIEST SET IS TERRIBLY UGLY. I don't to wear 'em.

[Targaryen]

It won't effect teamhopping for me that much. When you are fully s4 geared there is no incentive to stay in that high rated team.

[Brumak]

Ok, this is shit, gonna mean even less matches at high ratings and NO INCOME at all for a PvP-er =/



PS: Hi Targaryen

[Trevarion]

Arenas are about competitive play, not carrying friends.


Wow, and im sitting here thinking this game is about having fun ???:confused:

[Carexo]

Brilliant changes.

[Levidian]

because less people will be inclined to play arena because these epics are not longer welfare epics. Heck, half of the people won't even get to buy pants! Less people = less teams. Less teams = smaller pool of teams as a % of total teams. Less teams in the gladiator range = higher ratings needed to obtain gladiator title.

You're forgetting that a huge chunk of those point selling teams are counted as inactive.

Less teams but more ACTIVE teams will/should balance it out.
It might be slightly less but I don't see it changing much. The total rate will probably be lower but the amount of teams getting it shouldn't flux too much.

[Levidian]

It won't effect teamhopping for me that much. When you are fully s4 geared there is no incentive to stay in that high rated team.

This is the kind of stuff I hate to see. Arena is supposed to be for competitive play not for you to get your gear then slosh around.

Arena has made me a much stronger player and I'm loving it. Everytime I go in and get smashed it makes me want to play more and improve. Striving for the top of the brackets against teams doing the same will be awesome.

Hopefully the competition is better across all the battlegroups after the changes. One of the main reasons so many teams Xfered to bloodlust is because of the competition and actually getting to play games against good teams a majority of the time at the top of the brackets.

If you're just using the arena as a spring board to get gear just to have the gear then I hope you're not able to reach 2200 in S4.

[Levidian]

Wow, and im sitting here thinking this game is about having fun ???:confused:

If arena was the only content in this game you would have a point, but it isn't so you don't.

[Levidian]

Problems I still see:

Paying teams off to boost you to R1 titles(Hopefully they make an announcement that they will be looking at the R1 teams at the end of S3 to make sure there wasn't any BS going on. It shouldn't be a huge undertaking to investigate R1 teams to make sure they're legit.

Creating new teams to PR boost(this one isn't a big deal as the person still has to earn that rating)

All in all as long as a ton of people don't just give up it should make arena competition more enjoyable and make the arena ladders mean something.

[Durabolin]

Just added number 3. Looks like a fix for queue dodging.

I read this as a revert back to the way it was, correct?

[Levidian]

I read this as a revert back to the way it was, correct?

Yup, still going to be able to win trade but it will be more difficult. You're at least going to get points when you fight a zero man team now.

[Magdain]

Arenas are rated for a reason. You are rated based on how good your team is. Someone who is fully geared and has 2k+ experience and skill has no business being below that regardless of their friends.


DUH? A single player does not make an arena team. People of different skill levels play together at every single rating bracket of arenas. From 1300 to 2400. People are carried all the time, and some players are grouped with players of less or more skill on their main teams.

Just because it's an alt team that doesn't mean it's any less competitive. A good player and a bad player fighting 2 mediocre players sounds like a fair match, or as fair a match can get in this game.


If somebody only has 1 2v2 team at 1800 that they play regularly, meaning it's a main team that they play on regularly, and they have a 2200 3s or 5s, should their 2v2 team be tossed aside because it doesn't fit your arbitrary definition of a main team?

If you play on a team often it's rating will equalize WHERE THE TEAM'S COLLECTIVE SKILL IS. This applies to every team. Teams with experienced players and friends, teams with all experienced players, and teams with all inexperienced players. Who is anybody to say that just because you're playing on a second team with other players is any less competitive for those involved?

[Tzatziki]

I don't mind the first couple changes, but the PR-based queueing is just flat out retarded.

I could care less about points in the long run; we'll all get our gear. But I have two druids I play with at 2200 in 2v2, a friend I'm trying to help get 1850, three druids I play druid/priest/hunter with, a druid i play druid/war/hunter with, a druid and warrior I'm trying to get 1850, and a priest and mage I'm starting to mess around with.

Two of the above 2s teams and five above 3s teams are 2k quality at least. Now I have to choose one of each of those players, or be forced to grind 2340293 games against 1500 scrubs just to play teams our skill level? That's bullshit.

If I invite 2 2200 quality players to a 2200 teams, we should face teams at 2200. This completely fucks over people who play with a single person who plays a rare class. I'm one of two high rated hunters that still plays on my server, and there are like 20 billion druids that all want to play, and I'm friends with a lot of them. Now what?

[Akagar]

DUH? A single player does not make an arena team. People of different skill levels play together at every single rating bracket of arenas. From 1300 to 2400. People are carried all the time, and some players are grouped with players of less or more skill on their main teams.

Just because it's an alt team that doesn't mean it's any less competitive. A good player and a bad player fighting 2 mediocre players sounds like a fair match, or as fair a match can get in this game.


If somebody only has 1 2v2 team at 1800 that they play regularly, meaning it's a main team that they play on regularly, and they have a 2200 3s or 5s, should their 2v2 team be tossed aside because it doesn't fit your arbitrary definition of a main team?

If you play on a team often it's rating will equalize WHERE THE TEAM'S COLLECTIVE SKILL IS. This applies to every team. Teams with experienced players and friends, teams with all experienced players, and teams with all inexperienced players. Who is anybody to say that just because you're playing on a second team with other players is any less competitive for those involved?

That's perfectly fine, if it is the main team and they're not hopping on and off just to carry those friends and then go BACK to their main team. If someone infinitely better than the rest of the team is on that team when they don't belong there, and they just hopped to be there, it's clearly an unfair advantage. If they always play there, I have no problem with it.

I mentioned that.

[Grunge]

I'm more upset about the second part than anything. As everyone has said, it sucks that you can't team hop to play with different setups and friends. More frustratingly, you won't be able to add new players to highly rated teams without having to play an assload of 0 pt win / 30 pt loss games just to get that player's personal rating up to par. Basically, every time you make a change to your roster, you have to start a new team. That is stupid.

[Fival]

What they need to do is have your PR stick with you, no matter what team you jump over to, and the que by the higher of the 2 PRs. So if the 2.2k lock hops over to help the 1700 druid get up to 2k for his weap or w/e They are going to get ass raped by the 2.2k teams.

So just make PR sticky to the person no the team, and que by the higher rating not the lower.

[Doomflama]

What they need to do is have your PR stick with you, no matter what team you jump over to, and the que by the higher of the 2 PRs. So if the 2.2k lock hops over to help the 1700 druid get up to 2k for his weap or w/e They are going to get ass raped by the 2.2k teams.

So just make PR sticky to the person no the team, and que by the higher rating not the lower.


NO, way to easy to abuse.

You could set it up so all your games are for like 30 points a win and none a loss. Bad idea.

[Guntt]

you have to win to get gear and not just play?

the travesty :confused:

2200 rating to post imo

[Vona]

I don't think the 2200 rating will be that bad if you can push through to 2050 for imba s4 weapon DPS with the rest of the gear underneath it coming afterwards.

My 2v2 played in full s1 gear from the get go at 1800-1850 for around 8 weeks whilst we stockpiled points and bought our weapons. It then only took another two/three weeks for us to go from 1850-2000. Not bad for our first season.

2200 won't be easy, but my advice is to pick up the weapons first as the differences in stats should be more substantial than the s3 > s4 armour margins we've seen so far, especially if they come with sockets.

[Finaroth]

I was able to break 2k with 250-300 resilience....

2.2k wont be hard in full S3/getting 3/5 S4 first day.

[Therrin]

I like the changes.

Keep scrubbies away from shoulders/weapons KAY? THX

[Owzley]

lol...

[impel]

You better have a good team before s4 starts, you wont get one after. Every one of thows changes makes it's harder for new players to get a decent team, they wont get teammates and they wont get gear.

[Argeln]

Impel has a point though, I mean in my guild (ZOMBIES) everyone is playing with other people out of boredom/for fun/to try new stuff out/or simply start a new just to get more games played...

P.S lol at moderator post removal of the second last post: verbal diarrhea

[Alphatier]

Don't know wether anyone has posted this yet, but it will be so easy to sell rating in 3on3 for multiple people now, so easy so easy.

2 really good players play with 3 buyers, they play a team up to 2k with the first buyer.
Then second buyer is played up to 2k, and third buyer as well.

Now the good thing is, you can now leave the team, build up a new one, play up with new players.

From now on, each week you will join a team with two good players, putting the average personal rating of your team playing at about 1666, remember the point buyer has to have 2k personal. You now play one game against a bad team. Then rejoin. Then play against a bad team. Then rejoin. And so forth, 3 games with two of the point buyers, 4 with the last one.
There you got 3 happy subscripers, and you didn't have to play 7 real games anymore, you could just play 10 against players around the 1666 rating.

Congratulations :-)

[Earrl]

My problem with the whole system is it really alienates a lot of people from playing Arena imo, because bottom line is they just aren't good enough to ever hit 2k+. Yeah, it keeps people away from gear that they don't necessarily deserve, but bottom line is you're still going to farm those kids anyway...regardless of whether they have the gear or not.

I am also saying some classes (aka: Paladins) are going to be boned unless they get on a solid 5s team in a lot of cases...cause it seems like they're content with where the Arena is at now, and that is certainly disheartening.

[Kahoona]

I am also saying some classes (aka: Paladins) are going to be boned unless they get on a solid 5s team in a lot of cases...cause it seems like they're content with where the Arena is at now, and that is certainly disheartening.I was thinking that too. :( Lets hope, for yours any my sake, that they really aren't content on where the arenas are at the moment. My first idea for changing them is to not modify classes in the middle of a season, wait until the end of it and then implement class changes...it is pretty annoying going through a season and half way through your combo gets screwed to all hell from class changes.

[Loleeta]

While for the most part I found these measures from neutral to good, I don't really like the part that kills team hoping. Whatever the motive may be, helping some friends, having more than 1 active teams for the bracket or trying out other combos, I don't think anyone enjoys being matched against 1500s for hours each time he changes a team.

What I think it is needed is a more "personal" personal rating that is not tied to the team you're in (honestly, If I got a 2.2k personal when I play with my friend john, I'll most likely play like a 2,2k as well if I leave that team to play with my friend jack), or at least the team's should "memorize" someone's personal rating (for queueing purposes) so if I go back to a team I've made games with, I'll have my old PR retained.

[Sewt]

Meh I team hop at the moment for fun, but keep my 5s for points. I'll miss team hopping to help friends but I'll look forward to these changes forcing my partners to take Arena more seriously.

I only think that this change has come too late. Already most people who even casually play Arena's since S3 begun already have 4/5 S3 minimum. The jump from S3 to S4 gear isn't that astounding. And although point buying won't happen, this still won't stop the traditional means of a geared player carrying his friend up to a certain PR on a fresh team; *lots of druid tears*.

If anything I think the PR for the items is too low. But who knows what a "great" rating will be in next season, Blizzard thinks this new system will mean 2200 = good players I guess.

[tonit]

I'm about to go out to gym and today I'm gonna be pushing up weights with a big smile on my face.

Why?

I'll be imagining the face of those arena leechers who at the end of the season get similar gear to ppl who actually do good in arena.

No more l337 gearz for u bro ! HAHAHAHAHA


I didn't like the team hopping change tho, It's gonna get REALLY boring sometime in between the beginning of the season and the end, playing the same comp every fuckin' day of every week... Sounds like crap to me.

[tristantio]

I'm about to go out to gym and today I'm gonna be pushing up weights with a big smile on my face.

Why?

I'll be imagining the face of those arena leechers who at the end of the season get similar gear to ppl who actually do good in arena.

No more l337 gearz for u bro ! HAHAHAHAHA


I didn't like the team hopping change tho, It's gonna get REALLY boring sometime in between the beginning of the season and the end, playing the same comp every fuckin' day of every week... Sounds like crap to me.

You can have 4 people on a 2v2, 6 on a 3v3, and 10 on a 5v5.

How does that not leave room to have variations on the comp you're running?

[Wilco]

Thank god, now all we need is for people selling PR to get banned

[Tzatziki]

Thank god, now all we need is for people selling PR to get banned

Because if you can legitimately carry someone to a rating they don't deserve the PR?

Tell that to Serennia. ;)

[tonit]

You can have 4 people on a 2v2, 6 on a 3v3, and 10 on a 5v5.

How does that not leave room to have variations on the comp you're running?

ok u got me

I want to sell points thats all. :(

[Greentea]

Goodbye win-trading

[Alexsiss]

Gonna be fun that the ladder will be competitive now:P

[Kanim]

All the elistism about "OMG a bad player got good gear" is so dumb.
All gear limits do are cause further imbalance in arenas. For something thats supposed to be 'competitive' that seems contradictory, I'd think you'd want an even playing field as possible. But I guess you'd rather feel Cooler and have an easier time beating someone who's Better than you, but doesn't have all the gear yet. (I guess thats justified by the fact that in a few week's/months he'll have evened his gear out and start beating you into submission... but doesnt seem fun IMO)

Though because its an MMO theres gotta be some reward factor to keep the Crack Addiction Strong otherwise this game would suck more. So I do agree with some more scaled back changes to make it so you can't just Lose 10 games a week, and get all the rewards.

But the whole 'they're not the best of the best' so they can't even get on an even playing field is stupid...

Hell I hit 2k w/my priest in shreds of S1 and PvE gear, and bought my S3 shoulders first.. Everyone thought I paid for PR. But the other problem is theres just not enough good players on my server.. so all the 2200 teams are all close group of friends. and its difficult to get quality players of the Right class, with the right gear.. all of which are very important To break 2k/2.2k

[xtascy123]

Reason for the Changes:
The changes to the rating requirements for these items reflect the nature of the items, their power, and the relative difficulty that should be had when attempting to obtain them.

cause sunwell is hard, wait.

[Daghost]

Rating on all gear is what I'v been praying for, while there's still a few left un-covered, I'm completely satisfied, no more geared scrubs :P

[bk]

rofl, just logged on my rogue to find out that roughly 60% of the shoulders on my server all belong to a single guild (shitty pve at that) who led a huge ring of win trading to get them, this is insane

[vickem]

since the s4 arena/honor gear will be really fucking strong, they are making it to where only decent(honor) and good(shoulders/weap) players can get them. the horribles can start out with season 3 honor/arena gear and work their way up like the rest of us did.

[amerge]

Thanks a ton Tyveris for keeping this in a readable spot.

There are a LOT of teams that wont play their 10games/week now...GLadiator is going to be VERY small population for S4.

whats up finaroth ^_^

[Ridzik]

You still only need one serious team to stay on for points. You can then hop around for the other two.

for what exactly? for fighting utterly inferior opponents for 2 hours before you would finally queue against good ones but ooh wait you waisted your prime time killing scrubs and now its too late, there probably won't be no good team queuing any more.

this is whats going on now on average size realmpools like mine if you play above 2k: you queue until you meet your anticomp, then you stop queuing for half an hour and try again. chances to get the exact same team over and over again are very high, the higher the bigger the bracket. this could become worse once everybody has his shoulders and starts jumping teams again.

solution: when you join a team you don't start at 1500 PR but at the highest PR you have in any other bracket. queues are matched according to average PR. point distribution is based on average PR. weekly arena point gain and titles are based on team rating and bracket.

meaning: when two 2.2k avPR teams face each other it doesn't matter if one of them just rerolled and sits in a 1.5k team, the real 2.2k team faces good opponents but doesn't risk to loose 30 points, both teams can either win or loose 15 points. everybody would be happy right? i'm not sure though about how to handle the PR gain/loss.

[Belarin]

What is with all the vindictiveness about the current acceptability of arena gear? Especially from people with 1700 teams. :(

If arena is about fun and competition, isn't it better when everyone has access to the same gear? If someone wearing full s3 really is bad, then you'll be able to stomp them regardless of their gear. You don't need to have a gear advantage as well.

The team hopping change is really screwed up. As someone who re-rolled to a new server this season, I can tell you that it is quite difficult when you are starting out to find good teammates. It involves a lot of team-hopping, trying things out with different people, and slowly getting your ratings up before you can start playing with the really good crowd. Like one of the other posters already stated, woe to those who don't already have good teammates at the start of the season.

On the plus side, the queue dropping change is long overdue. I'm so f'n tired of getting 0 opponent games because someone was win-trading.

[Teddymonster]

Either way the reqs dont seem like a big deal. I don't think I've ever sat in-game and said to myself "fuck this scrub in the 1600s has full S3! what bullshit!". I'm so anti pve/raider I just like to see anyone trying out arena/pvp over foot planting raids. I take more pleasure in seeing a raider who spent months and endless hours in raids and has like 50 more spell dmg than me (and that's with me having resil/stam gems) than I do getting shoulders...cuz I suck and still got shoulders and know people far worse than me with shoulders...and I'll suck next season and STILL get 2200 and my shoulders again, muahahaha. I hope that makes the elitists feel even better :p

[Kcolraw]

for what exactly?
uh for fun? maybe i don't want to play with the same people for 2 brackets and wanna hop around playing with different friends/setups

[Tektonic]

The seasons are way too long to play on one team. That's my only issue with them discouraging team hopping.

I don't want to trounce folks at 1500, but id rather have some incentive for playing after the first month or last two weeks of a season.

[killtank]

SWEET!!! is all i gotta say, now when we're rocking full s4 it actually will look pro!

[Dragoth]

First of all, I already quit WoW roughly a month ago, so personally, I am not affected by these changes.

However, I wonder why so few people here face the problems *for them* that arise from the new rating reqs. Many here seem to see the changes from the perspective of someone who was hovering around or above 2,2k for the last three seasons and thus are those who benefit from the changes (or, more accurately, won't not be screwed by them).
Here's my complaint: I say this is wrong, because the changes mean a huge change in the PvP-environment; if there's no prey left, the predators have to turn on each other.

The changes are going to depopulate arenas since many teams no longer have an incentive to play, especially towards the end of the season.
As things are now, sub-1,5k teams (and, by the laws of rating distribution, there are as many teams below 1,5k as there are above) won't get anything besides gloves. Of course you can say "then they just have to take the bad stuff" but basically, that means that their limits are s4 gloves, s3 helm, legs, chest (shoulders and weapons are BG anyway). If they played s3 for a couple of months, odds are good they already have most of it. And probably many of them won't do their 10 games/week just for gloves or an obsolete upgrade, but do BGs instead (don't forget, s2 is the most important gear since it already has max resilience). So just assume that lots of players who are responsible that there is any influx for new points AT ALL will simply leave arena alltogether.


People who were stuck at 1,7k-1,8k but got their full s3 (bar wep+helm) now will face serious problems getting more than 3 parts. Considering that the lesser breed may quit arena in large numbers, I see many of them having problems getting 1,7k, and the worst of them may even not get the 1550/1600. So this sooner or later removes them as well. Again, this has its repercussions for those who actually managed to get their 1,7k and stayed - because it won't get much easier for them to get 1,8k (since the up-to-date weapon isn't accessible for them anyway) since those they can farm have left while those they are farmed by (all the 2k+) may be stuck at lower ratings as well (see below).

For those who actually already are full s3, things may play out likewise. They will be capped at 4/5 s3 rather soon (since they sit on their 5k). However, if my assumptions prove to be accurate, many of those who were 2k-2,2k (that means most of you here) will actually be struggling to even get 2050, which will make this lot more of a grind, I promise.
Thus, many of those who did arena for gear only are going to leave as well once they realize that they won't get their weapon (which is very probable since better players will be more frequent at lower ratings), others will redouble their efforts and leave afterwards. Shoulders are inaccessible, saving 5k may be senseless, so why not quit alltogether?


So, what I want to say: if I were you, I wouldn't be too confident that I could easily repeat my 2,2k. Some may, but lots may not (apart from the fact that the shoulder change indeed is a kick in the nuts of a paladin, or for a frost mage without a decent 3v3 for that matter - 2,2k at 5v5 already is gladiator material in some BGs); as a rule of thumb, I'd say that the ceiling may be lowered for 100-200 points. Less if my predictions prove to be exaggerated, more if it's even worse than expected.

[Seventhsyn]

Everyone said the same thing about s3 when the rating requirements came out for Shoulders // Weapons. Then within 2-3 weeks we already had all our stuff.

With no win trading and personal rating most likely having to come legit I love the changes.

Most AJ posters will have our 2050 weapons in 1 week, and shoulders within 2-3.

Arena would be better off with less 1550 skill capped players crying all day about getting matched against glad's. Go play Warsong Gulch, get out of my arena.

[Dragoth]

Most AJ posters will have our 2050 weapons in 1 week, and shoulders within 2-3.


Most AJ Posters didn't have their weapon in 1 week back then, when it was 1850... I wonder what makes you think that things are going to work out better now.

Everyone said the same thing about s3 when the rating requirements came out for Shoulders // Weapons. Then within 2-3 weeks we already had all our stuff.

It's a huge difference if you have 4 parts or just 1.
Even a fairly average player who got his 400 points/week needed the whole season to get 4/5 s3. But still he had an incentive to play.
What's about now?
s4 Gloves are 1125, 3 parts s3 are, dunno, ~5k? IF he hasn't got them already (not that unlikely). If most of the players are capped at 2-3 items and don't do arena just for fun, it's possible that they are just going to leave (effectively removing their rating from the rating distribution).
What happens to the top of a food chain if you remove the bottom?

[Seventhsyn]

Umm are you kidding me? A ton of AJ people had weapons on the first 1-2 days.

I had them on my Main day 2, shoulders week 2 and only then because I raided during the week.

[magnumleo]

What happens to the top of a food chain if you remove the bottom?
it is the point but a lot of people dont understand it.

[Seventhsyn]

Your over estimating that all the "bottom of the food chain" are just going to quit.

#1 at 300-400 points a week even the 3 items are still going to take months.

#2 getting 1700 is extremely reasonable for even a "bottom feeder" to achieve. If anything this gives them even more of an incentive to stay and play.

[Obzy]

I don't understand why people are so worried about losing the ones under 1500s... We normally don't even play against the people under 1460 and if we do after our first match they're gone... And the 1500+ have no reasons to quit because they're kind of close to 1550 and then when they have that piece they can try to work and get better get in the 1600s etc etc... Plus... Selling 1700 PR for a good price but still reasonable is still there too you know lol... Just imagine you take 30 minutes of your time and you get 500-1000g for unlocking 3 pieces of s4 gear to random nubs. That's what I'm going to do anyways.

[Kcolraw]

The changes are going to depopulate arenas since many teams no longer have an incentive to play, especially towards the end of the season.
As things are now, sub-1,5k teams (and, by the laws of rating distribution, there are as many teams below 1,5k as there are above) won't get anything besides gloves. Of course you can say "then they just have to take the bad stuff" but basically, that means that their limits are s4 gloves, s3 helm, legs, chest (shoulders and weapons are BG anyway). If they played s3 for a couple of months, odds are good they already have most of it. And probably many of them won't do their 10 games/week just for gloves or an obsolete upgrade, but do BGs instead (don't forget, s2 is the most important gear since it already has max resilience). So just assume that lots of players who are responsible that there is any influx for new points AT ALL will simply leave arena alltogether.
no
right now the problem is a lot of people don't even try, just do 10 games a week (or buy points) till they get 4/5, THEN they try push 1850 for weapon (or buy the pr if they don't have friends)

i'm pretty sure a lot of the 1500's people you see can have higher ratings if they actually give arenas a real goal

so i think this new rating requirement change is good
it will encourage more active playing imo
think about it from a noob pov

*season 4 starts*

woot woot time to spend my saved up 5k lol

*noob goes to vendor*

omg i can only buy gloves lol need pr for everything else wtf

*finds friend(s)*

hay letsdo arena i need 1550 for pants
me too omg (noob friend)
this is so gay lol (noob friend 2)

*queue some 3v3*

*20 games later*

omg finally woot new gear
i gtg :\ (friend)
wtf but i need 1575 for bracers i got honor saved up (friend 2)
i need 1600 for chest too lol can u play tomorrow
no but i can play saturday u? (friend 1)
good4me (friend 2)
me2





you see how this works, because the rating requirements are all so close to each other (1550, 1575, 1600, 1650, 1700...), this will promote active playing for the noobs imo

instead of driving the 1500 welfare kids away from arena completely, this will instead encourage serious play, the added rating requirements = incentive

that's the way i see it anyway

[Wicked]

no
right now the problem is a lot of people don't even try, just do 10 games a week (or buy points) till they get 4/5, THEN they try push 1850 for weapon (or buy the pr if they don't have friends)

i'm pretty sure a lot of the 1500's people you see can have higher ratings if they actually give arenas a real goal

so i think this new rating requirement change is good
it will encourage more active playing imo
think about it from a noob pov

*season 4 starts*

woot woot time to spend my saved up 5k lol

*noob goes to vendor*

omg i can only buy gloves lol need pr for everything else wtf

*finds friend(s)*

hay letsdo arena i need 1550 for pants
me too omg (noob friend)
this is so gay lol (noob friend 2)

*queue some 3v3*

*20 games later*

omg finally woot new gear
i gtg :\ (friend)
wtf but i need 1575 for bracers i got honor saved up (friend 2)
i need 1600 for chest too lol can u play tomorrow
no but i can play saturday u? (friend 1)
good4me (friend 2)
me2





you see how this works, because the rating requirements are all so close to each other (1550, 1575, 1600, 1650, 1700...), this will promote active playing for the noobs imo

instead of driving the 1500 welfare kids away from arena completely, this will instead encourage serious play, the added rating requirements = incentive

that's the way i see it anyway

lol I like that dialog :-)

Good point tbh

[Dragoth]

you see how this works, because the rating requirements are all so close to each other (1550, 1575, 1600, 1650, 1700...), this will promote active playing for the noobs imo

instead of driving the 1500 welfare kids away from arena completely, this will instead encourage serious play, the added rating requirements = incentive

that's the way i see it anyway

You were right, if arena wasn't zero-sum. But since it is, the 50, 75, 100, 150 or 200 points have to be taken from someone who, in turn, will be denied rewards (and is thus more likely to quit).

What will happen to those who know that they won't get higher than 1500? All those fire mages, fury warriors or whatever?
To demonstrate, let's create an artificial environment, populated with rational actors.

Think of it as a snowball system. Those who know that they will move down won't give it a shot (just assume they already have 4 parts s3 and 1125 points saved, so there's no reason for them to play anymore). Now those who actually *might* get higher than 1500 under normal circumstances will be denied the chance since there are no opponents left they can defeat - the noobs have quit and now the average ones are the new noobs. They know this and will leave too. And so on.
This means: even your sub 1500-noob won't get to 1600 no matter how hard he tries - even he manages to get better, he is still worse than those who are left. Think about a tournament where only the good players, who normally were 2k+++, competed, and suddenly even 1650 was a great achievement.

Of course, this is totally arbitrary (people won't just know they don't stand a chance and even if they did, they won't just quit) but serves best to illustrate my thoughts. BUT if the impact is severe enough, and many are going to leave, this affects any of you as well.

Of course, they *were* right. Top arena gear *should* be more special (well... I still see a problem there because differences in gear widen the gap between good players and bad players even further, which is detrimental to balance, but that's the least of my worries at the moment). The system *would* be great if the player base was static. But with the introduction of this "suck my balls if you are bad"-system, it's going to erode. Especially since it's perfectly possible to gather nice s2-stuff in BGs.


They saw the problem - too much stuff for people who don't deserve it - so now they came up with a totally lackluster and half-baked solution for it, but forgot about adding another incentive (like, for example, removing rating from s3 shoulders and sword).
But any comparison between SW and Arena is inherently faulty. If you farm Sunwell over and over again, the mobs won't suddenly quit. Mobs don't need an incentive to stay, players do.

(I hope for you it doesn't end up like this. But out of curiosity, I'm going to see if I'm right or wrong later)